xcraftllc Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Just a thought that popped up in my head with the AF being short on pilots and all. I mean, they already have the reserve units at UPT bases which helps but I'm sure there are plenty of qualified pilots out there who wouldn't mind being a civilian flight instructor for T-6s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperMan Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Sure, as long as they're retired military pilots. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialD Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 I've often wondered how it work out if they put UPT into the Guard. Great mission for a part time force, with zero deployments. Highly experienced dudes teaching for years/decades. Haven't even begun to consider the numbers, but you'd clearly be required to have WAY more bases than we do now, as most bases could only handle one airframe. Has RAND or some masters student done a study on this? Probably thousands of reason this is a bad idea...just thinking out loud. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Over 200+ AD IP positions were moved to the Reserves in the mid-90s, the main issue is not the need for a new DAF position for IP, is A1 to realize and believe there is a need for increased MPA to use the Reserves more that are already there. Civilian IPs would come with a new set of work rules to incorporate with the 11-202v3, T-6 regs, AETC regs/sups, local guidance, etc... me thinks it more problematic than getting more MPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARAMP1 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 57 minutes ago, SocialD said: I've often wondered how it work out if they put UPT into the Guard. Great mission for a part time force, with zero deployments. Highly experienced dudes teaching for years/decades. Haven't even begun to consider the numbers, but you'd clearly be required to have WAY more bases than we do now, as most bases could only handle one airframe. Has RAND or some masters student done a study on this? Probably thousands of reason this is a bad idea...just thinking out loud. Was actually just talking to another dude about this. Lots of airline guys have asked me why I don't transfer to a heavy guard/reserve unit that is closer to where I live. Some people enjoy the flying that we do in the airlines..I don't particularly. Don't get me wrong, it's not digging ditches or anything. It's a great job. But going to my reserve job flying the T-6 is fun. It's easy. There's no vault/studying. No deployments. Get to rage around in a little hot rod. It's the perfect reserve gig. Hell, I've been doing it so long now that I've probably forgotten more about the T-6 then I knew about the other two aircraft I was an instructor in. So what's the problem having it a dedicated reserve/guard specialty? The only thing I could come up with is that it wouldn't develop young pilots. I learned more about flying and matured more as a pilot by teaching primary students than I did teaching at the RTU. Don't know if that would really be the case AF wide. And, we're in no danger of the change happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Interesting perspective. At my little part of UPT, the reservists are starting to do the math on how much it costs them to come out and do 6-7 days at the unit. Guys are dropping like flies and it ain't gonna get better...Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzdude Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 I heard it is a option being kicked around right now. Not unprecedented though. A quick Google search yielded this paper from the 80s on the topic:http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a194382.pdfI guess the more things change, the more they stay the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARAMP1 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 56 minutes ago, Duck said: Interesting perspective. At my little part of UPT, the reservists are starting to do the math on how much it costs them to come out and do 6-7 days at the unit. Guys are dropping like flies and it ain't gonna get better... Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums Yeah, we've had a few guys quit. I get it though. I basically have to be on orders for three days for the same amount of money I can make in one morning out and back at FedEx. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Airspace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Just a thought that popped up in my head with the AF being short on pilots and all. I mean, they already have the reserve units at UPT bases which helps but I'm sure there are plenty of qualified pilots out there who wouldn't mind being a civilian flight instructor for T-6s.Hurlburt has discussed this exact scenario. There's whispers of getting the prior gunship contractors re-qualified so they can fly qual for new AC/CPs. The biggest stumbling block (for us in particular) is what happens when a civilian is the A code and there is some kind of emergency involving live ordinance. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialD Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 hour ago, ARAMP1 said: Was actually just talking to another dude about this. Lots of airline guys have asked me why I don't transfer to a heavy guard/reserve unit that is closer to where I live. Some people enjoy the flying that we do in the airlines..I don't particularly. Don't get me wrong, it's not digging ditches or anything. It's a great job. But going to my reserve job flying the T-6 is fun. It's easy. There's no vault/studying. No deployments. Get to rage around in a little hot rod. It's the perfect reserve gig. Hell, I've been doing it so long now that I've probably forgotten more about the T-6 then I knew about the other two aircraft I was an instructor in. So what's the problem having it a dedicated reserve/guard specialty? The only thing I could come up with is that it wouldn't develop young pilots. I learned more about flying and matured more as a pilot by teaching primary students than I did teaching at the RTU. Don't know if that would really be the case AF wide. And, we're in no danger of the change happening. Funny, I actually enjoy the flying because it's so much more chill than flying at the Guard. Nice to kick back, drink my coffee, BS about everything under the sun and watch the states go by. But I totally get what you're saying. I don't particularly relish the idea of teaching TP stalls the rest of my career, but it would make life as a part-timer so much easier. For all the reasons you stated, it seems like it would be a logical fit for a part time force. 1 hour ago, Duck said: Interesting perspective. At my little part of UPT, the reservists are starting to do the math on how much it costs them to come out and do 6-7 days at the unit. Guys are dropping like flies and it ain't gonna get better... Well that's their problem right there...6-7 days is right out! 4 maybe 5 days MAX. Yes, once you hit 2nd or 3rd year pay it's a significant pay cut to go out to the guard...even as a narrow body guy. I stick around the Guard because I still enjoy the flying and I love the camaraderie. However, every year we add more shit the Viper that makes it harder and harder to be a part timer. 20 minutes ago, matmacwc said: Airspace Ya, that would be killer for many bases. Although it would mostly be a problem for T-6s. A lot of bases have close enough and big enough airspace for T-1s and T-38s. Given that each base would only have a small number of classes/students, you wouldn't need alot of airspace. Distance would be killer though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetfreezer Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 2 hours ago, hispeed7721 said: Hurlburt has discussed this exact scenario. There's whispers of getting the prior gunship contractors re-qualified so they can fly qual for new AC/CPs. The biggest stumbling block (for us in particular) is what happens when a civilian is the A code and there is some kind of emergency involving live ordinance. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums Follow the T.O/IFG hung/other EP procedures and IFE/egress? Draken flies CAS sorties for JTAC quals with live ordnance. Also various contractor/GS test aircrew fly fighters/bombers with live ordnance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuggyU2 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) If they want retirees back in uniform for this, they will need to find a way to do it without taking away their retiree pay. Otherwise, make them contractors. Otherwise, the financial penalty is just too high for most former military pilots. Edited February 20, 2017 by HuggyU2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Army already does this for helo pilot training. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperStud Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, HuggyU2 said: If they want retirees back in uniform for this, they will need to find a way to do it without taking away their retiree pay. Otherwise, make them contractors. Otherwise, the financial penalty is just too high for most former military pilots. It's called title 5. Think technician minus the dual-status part, so no drill or AFTPs, etc. They exist in a limited quantity, for example at Edwards. In my little corner of the guard it comes up every once in a while. Leadership hems and haws about how hard it will be to discipline someone with no Mil rank, as if they'd be hiring dudes from off the street. Hell, it might take ACTUAL leadership to corral them. Also without the additional $30k of mil pay the GS13 pay kinda sucks. Things are gonna have to get a lot worse before title 5 gains traction. It's unfortunate. It would be a good thing but man the system to implement it is limited and leadership is scared shitless of it. Edited February 20, 2017 by ViperStud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08Dawg Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 10 hours ago, Champ Kind said: Army already does this for helo pilot training. Beat me to it....point being, there's already a precedent in the military flying community. I bet you could get a bunch of retired guys to sign up for it. All the fun, none of the queep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daynightindicator Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 It's also already done in the DT world. Actually works really well, as you get highly experienced aircrew who focus on only flying and test reports as opposed to ancillary training and ground jobs. The continuity is awesome as well. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcraftllc Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 11 hours ago, Champ Kind said: Army already does this for helo pilot training. 50 minutes ago, 08Dawg said: Beat me to it....point being, there's already a precedent in the military flying community. I bet you could get a bunch of retired guys to sign up for it. All the fun, none of the queep! That's what made me wonder about this in the first place being former Army myself. Seemed to work out great. The instructors liked being able to fly without all the other obligations that come along with military membership. The Army even uses some blue-suiters to augment actual MWS qualification training. All contracting work under a company called URS (I think their fixed wing contractor is CAE or something). Gives the Army a bit more ROI from the money they spend training pilots since a lot of guys get out as soon as their commitment is up, totally down to keep flying but tired of all the deployments,pcsing, queep, CBTs, change of command ceremonies, field training etc... One of the limitations with the guard/reserve thing is that a former military pilot still needs to get hired by them in the first place which (so I've heard) can be challenging for guys with 15-19 years of service or so, because the guard/reserve unit doesn't want to get stuck with the retirement bill. I think the up-or-out stuff screws some otherwise highly qualified guys as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Ft Rucker currently does this with SUPT-H. Blue-suiters teach contact/EP/Instruments in the aircraft and in the sim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 You guys are missing the point. Nobody is gonna take a paycut to live in DLF. You want those lifers in the sim building to run the flightline? Half can't pass a medical. But you go right ahead. Look, you're not gonna get any takers to come down here to District 12. You're gonna have to incentivize the $$$ in ways that make civilians a non-starter. Once you hit AGR levels of equivalent hard/soft compensation, it's not worth it to the DOD to pay a civilian that. This isn't new. They already tried to make us all ARTs down here. Didn't go anywhere. And I mean nowhere, dead in the water full stop. It was amazing to see how they even had to carve us out DLFers from the conversion. Never seen management have to be so transparent about a concession in my 12 years in this gig. You guys know the muckity mucks are going back to an ART-to-AGR retrofit with tail between their legs right now, right? 55% system-wide manning on the ART side alone. They can't staff it in GOOD locations, let alone the UPT shitholes. This whole thread is moot already. And you guys think the P-cola model of having non-ART/straight-GS GS-12 flying T-1s is gonna get traction in UPT shitholes? LOL Hell, there was a huge exodus in P-cola precisely because they wouldn't give those guys GS-13 with the SSR, only the most hardcore "live in FL over anything" townies remained. And moving UPT on a piecemeal basis to good locations in order to normalize for the inability to pay civilians AGR money and benefits? ROFL. Your god-damned chief of staff is actively lobbying for the regional industry just so he doesn't have to address servicemember non-monetary QOL drivers, and you guys think the DOD is gonna have the impetus to make basing changes? Holy shit you guys are hitting the Petrovskaya a bit hard and early on this one. Good AFSO-21 topic though. Good luck. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 And THAT, gentlemen, is how you do a rant. Any questions? Right, carry on... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 And he is 100% correct. Screw DLF by the way, five years of my life I'll never get back. We were probably there together 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Historical item for the topic:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Forces_Contract_Flying_School_Airfields Beyond IFS and sims I don't see Big Blue going for this but is this another place in flight operations where a WO program would make sense?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcraftllc Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said: Historical item for the topic:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Forces_Contract_Flying_School_Airfields Beyond IFS and sims I don't see Big Blue going for this but is this another place in flight operations where a WO program would make sense? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Nope, I'd say the WO thing would have all the same issues that 2020 and matmacwc are talking about with the added complication of a Warrant corps in the AF and still come along with all the military lifestyle obligations and queep etc... Edited February 22, 2017 by xcraftllc add queep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 If they are as pissy and short tempered as the Sim guys at my base... sounds like a recipe for success.Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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