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Goldfein advocating FAA 1500 hour rule change???

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1111    37
7 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:


Good and hopeful words/plan.

I don't want them to offer more money because it's going to prolong the problem, and America can't afford it.

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I wish your plan the best of luck. How can America not afford it?

I am curious, just want to see your cost vs benefit in terms of raising the bonus/flight pay.

Do you know any study out there that addresses that retention will not be enough If they increase the bonus substantially? 

I get folks are saying there will never be enough people to take it, but how do we know? 

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Jaded    387
6 hours ago, so.it.goes said:

 

Hindsight, I'm pretty sure you put your time in as a Bum, so I know that you're familiar with how poorly that equation unfolds for a Traditional guy or someone trying to bum. You spend half your day (like I am today) trying to figure out where your rightfully-earned money from last week/month is, and the other half wondering why you came in at all.

Ha, it's sad how true that is for TRs. The pay system is so fucked up. We literally have guys who schedule paid admin days every couple of months to resolve inevitable pay issues. 

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Duck    852
I wish your plan the best of luck. How can America not afford it?
I am curious, just want to see your cost vs benefit in terms of raising the bonus/flight pay.
Do you know any study out there that addresses that retention will not be enough If they increase the bonus substantially? 
I get folks are saying there will never be enough people to take it, but how do we know? 

Are you planning on taking the Devils money?


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flyusaf83    98
9 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:


I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say I hope they don't raise the bonus.

They will never compete. Congress just won't do it, so they will never realistically pay enough to make enough people stay to solve the crisis.

The right answer is to fix the system. Treat people better. Define realistic capabilities based on number of aircraft and aircrew and stick to them. Want more sorties? Give us more people and planes. The AF general level leadership needs to start giving Congress, and whoever the mythical, no-one-can-say-no-to COCOM commanders, real capability levels, and stick to them.

No more cbts just because some bureaucrat thinks it's a good idea. No more spending skilled labor on jobs that can be done by a two striper or civilian. No more making six-figure employees pick up leaves for a staff visit. Treat the talent like a resource. If that means we drop all those things and find ourselves with excess capacity, fine, do another RIF. But treat people the way they know they are worth, and then, only then, worry about the money.

A bigger bonus or more flight pay isn't going to fix this, because they will never, ever, ever be able to raise it enough. The only hope is to recapitalize on camaraderie, patriotism, and self efficacy.

I don't want them to offer more money because it's going to prolong the problem, and America can't afford it.

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Poor argument. Yours is a false dichotomy. The AF doesn't have to choose between QoL and money. They can and should work on both.

Also, you say America can't afford to increase the bonus.  Well, if they triple the bonus from last year to $75k for 9 years, that's $675k.  Depending on airframe, it costs between 4-15 times that much to replace that pilot, not to mention the 10 years of experience.  In truth, the American people can't afford to lose experienced pilots.

I understand that some who take the bonus would take it anyway. However, if the AF wants to retain talent, they have to increase the bonus to level where it will firmly be a part of the decision for all but the most jaded.  At some point, money talks.

And the nice thing is, the AF can work on the QoL issues at the same time.

Edited by flyusaf83
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Lord Ratner    381
10 hours ago, flyusaf83 said:
Poor argument. Yours is a false dichotomy. The AF doesn't have to choose between QoL and money. They can and should work on both.
Also, you say America can't afford to increase the bonus.  Well, if they triple the bonus from last year to $75k for 9 years, that's $675k.  Depending on airframe, it costs between 4-15 times that much to replace that pilot, not to mention the 10 years of experience.  In truth, the American people can't afford to lose experienced pilots.
I understand that some who take the bonus would take it anyway. However, if the AF wants to retain talent, they have to increase the bonus to level where it will firmly be a part of the decision for all but the most jaded.  At some point, money talks.
And the nice thing is, the AF can work on the QoL issues at the same time.


Sorry, I didn't mean America can't afford it financially, I mean America can't afford to have a weakened Air Force.

The AF can't increase the bonus. Only Congress can. The AF shot for 60k, which in my opinion is pretty amazing, and they got stomped. We are a pretty (reasonably) cynical group here, but now we think Congress will just open the purse? That's the most optimistic sh*t I've ever heard in my life. Trust me, the day Congress allows the bonus or flight pay to compete with the airlines will be two fiscal year after there's no one left to pay it to.

Your arguments are too ideal, IMO. Of course the AF can work on QoL AND money, but they won't. You know it, I know it. Now that the bonus went up I fully expect the true believers to use this as an excuse to wait a year or two and see how it affects retention, while more people leave. Maybe another "round table" or two, but no real action.

I think there are a lot of leaders, way more than we realized, who find the concept of making changes to the AF to make people happy morally repugnant. They "dealt with it," so we should too. Now they can point to the bonus, which isn't enough, and say "See? We did what you asked, now stop complaining."

I could be wrong, obviously. But I'm trying to think of a solution in the context of what's possible.

And in the interest of full realism, no, I do not expect the AF, or Congress to get it right. I think there will be hearings about the pilot crisis that will go something like this:

DC: Where are the pilots?
AF: Let's give the bonus some time

*Pilots leave*

DC: Where are the pilots?
AF: We're making changes we think will fix it.
DC: What about stop loss?
AF: We don't think stop loss is the right answer for this issue [after they thought it was for a while, of course]

*Pilots leave, missions visibly (CNN) suffer*

DC: Where are the pilots?
AF: Our changes didn't have the planned effect.
DC: What a about stop loss?
AF: We don't think stop loss is the right answer for this issue
DC: We disagree, do a stop loss
AF: ok

*Stop loss goes for six months or so, then makes headlines*

DC: Are you people crazy why are we still stop-lossing our heroes?!?!
AF: *blinking on CSPAN* ...But you said--
DC: End the stop loss!
AF: ok

*Pilots leave. Hollow force. Period of struggle*

*Major attack, war, terrorist event, etc*

*Americans step up, old hats return, patriotism and country music result in massive military spending, AF is reborn*

Rinse and repeat

Edited by Lord Ratner
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Flaco    94
1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Words of Nostradamus
 

Shack!

Can't wait for the epic thread revival....

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Duck    852

The AF has ZERO credibility in DC. That is the reason why you aren't getting your fat bonus. If you actually think that congress listens to Capt Bagodonuts who says "it ain't about the money" then I would say you overestimate how much they even care. However the AF has been the spoiled money-grubbing, temper tantrum throwing red headed stepchild since the whole RPA resistant, F-22 love affair(maybe further back than that, but this comes to mind first for me). Now think about all the other shitty things that have come to light on Capitol Hill that is resultant of Big Blue... MC-12 fight with the Army then subsequently divesting the mission, TAMI-21, attempting to forcibly separate 17-year majors after they had been previously continued, RIFing just 3 years ago, followed by an epic pilot shortage, the acquisition process of the F-35 and even worse the KC-X boondoggle... not to even mention all the freaking dipshit Colonels and Generals (and Capts) we keep firing for doing seriously stupid $hit. The AFs word means dirt. They have asked for money so much that congress is getting sick of it. So if you want to blame someone for messing up the bonus, don't look at your peers, look at upper management.


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Spartacus    53
8 hours ago, pilotguy said:

Not really supporting a side. Just hate people who ignorantly claim you're turning down millions and millions of dollars by choosing to stay in. It's simply not true. That's all. You're turning money down but it's way closer than people realize.

I've seen several analyses from multiple sources. Almost every single one is not accounting for items that are huge factors. Airline profit sharing, 401K contributions and per diem etc. Additionally, when you earn a military retirement you get your money in small monthly increments. Correct me if I'm wrong here but there isn't much of a correction for inflation either. So, your retirement dollars from a military pension are worth less and less each passing year. 

Compare that to airline pay where you end up getting large chunks of money each year (~$200-$400K) that you can really leverage into investments. I personally think that I can make those dollars go further than a military pension that dwindles in value yearly. I'm going into the reserves too and plan on earning a pension that way so I'll be getting something from the government still. Just later on. (Age 59) 

Factor in the b.s. and political games and AD loses big time. Hence, why everyone is leaving. Are we really having this argument? The fact that so many people are bailing is enough proof in my opinion as to what the smart choice is.

Edited by Spartacus
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Spartacus    53
12 hours ago, jrizzell said:

Friend of a friend, who is in DC as AF Fellow attended the meeting between USAF and Airlines. His words "it was a horse abortion"; the USAF viewpoint was not looked upon with any type of sympathy. The overall gist was, we are commercial business who's goal is to make $ for our stockholders and company. I guess United was the most vocal in their displeasure. Statements like "you have mismanaged your pilots for over a decade". So I don't think it went like leadership was hoping...

I'll just say that I got a real interesting look at this from the airline side. Apparently the CSAF in the meeting asked the airlines to pay their pilots less so it's not as enticing for AF pilots to leave. I don't know if he just implied that or came right out and asked, but his request was NOT received well at all.

There is no doubt in my mind that senior AF leadership will screw over the pilots. They are only looking to solve the problem in a way that will be good for big blue. If that means screwing all of over then they will do it.

PULL THE HANDLES NOW IF YOU CAN.  

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Gazmo    101
Friend of a friend, who is in DC as AF Fellow attended the meeting between USAF and Airlines. His words "it was a horse abortion"; the USAF viewpoint was not looked upon with any type of sympathy. The overall gist was, we are commercial business who's goal is to make $ for our stockholders and company. I guess United was the most vocal in their displeasure. Statements like "you have mismanaged your pilots for over a decade". So I don't think it went like leadership was hoping...


This is just classic....

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1111    37
10 hours ago, Duck said:


Are you planning on taking the Devils money?


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I am not. I want it to be higher, much higher, around 75K just to think about it. But based on the group predictions that is too ideal. But it doesn't mean I am not interested in it going up and giving our community more options on leaving or staying. What seems too ideal IMO is thinking that we get addl duties less, 365s become useful, Sq are adequately manned with green suiters and civilian staff for those addl duties. 

 

So if folks are going to get screwed over anyway, might as well give us more money (which has been established, by most, as improbable).

Everyone has a price, from least to the most cynical and everyone in between, even you.

 

ADDED: to be clear I want more money and less 365s, less addl duty, etc. 

Edited by 1111
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gearpig    1,553
7 hours ago, Spartacus said:

I've seen several analyses from multiple sources. Almost every single one is not accounting for items that are huge factors. Airline profit sharing, 401K contributions and per diem etc. 

Right. Since Jan 1, I have not worked a single day at the airline, yet am still getting paid.  I'm given orders at my Guard unit to help out due to the mass exodus of full-timers to airline initial training. If I never work a day the rest of the year, I'll still have been paid, by the airline, an amount in profit sharing and 401K contributions that far exceed the AD bonus.

I've had more than a few conversations with full-timers on the fence about going airlines. It's frustrating when they keep pointing to "The Spreadsheet" in talking about pay. First, the spreadsheet is wrong. It's ball park at best. Way too many variables. I mention their spreadsheet doesn't include things like getting junior assigned, distance learning pay, premium pay, vacation overlaps, vacation flying, extra flying, trip trading, travel benefits, etc. If a person wants to difference between active duty and airline pay to be great enough to justify leaving, it's easily achievable outside the scope of spreadsheet variables.

 

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FUSEPLUG    219
9 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Apparently the CSAF in the meeting asked the airlines to pay their pilots less so it's not as enticing for AF pilots to leave. I don't know if he just implied that or came right out and asked, but his request was NOT received well at all.

The airline CEOs would LOVE to pay us less!  It's the unions and the pilot groups that would lose their fucking minds if that were to happen in this day and age.  So yeah, no.

Keep the leaks/hearsay coming.  I don't expect ole' Fingers will be publicly releasing his AAR from the meeting in DC.

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pawnman    675
50 minutes ago, FUSEPLUG said:

The airline CEOs would LOVE to pay us less!  It's the unions and the pilot groups that would lose their fucking minds if that were to happen in this day and age.  So yeah, no.

Keep the leaks/hearsay coming.  I don't expect ole' Fingers will be publicly releasing his AAR from the meeting in DC.

It's almost like when a commodity (pilots) are in short supply, you have to pay more to secure them...

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Vetter    206

I just got my pay stub for May.  I'm a 3rd year NB FO at a mAAjor.  Line holder bidding about 75%.  I made $22,579.40 with the 16% DC. That's  prob more than the COS made in May.  Caveat...I had a week of vacation and still flew a little more than normal.

The fact that fuckhead Fingers thinks he has standing to negotiate my fucking pay after I served 10 years pisses me off to no end.  It should piss you off too.  The disconnect is unreal.  Fuck off Fingers.  For all of you even looking at the fence much less sitting on it, NOW is the time to get out.

Edited by Vetter
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Jaded    387

This info was posted on the CAF fighter retention Facebook page and was deleted by the mods there. Apparently this doesn't jive with the carefully cultivated information campaign they are running. 

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dream big    129
3 hours ago, FUSEPLUG said:

The airline CEOs would LOVE to pay us less!  It's the unions and the pilot groups that would lose their fucking minds if that were to happen in this day and age.  So yeah, no.

Keep the leaks/hearsay coming.  I don't expect ole' Fingers will be publicly releasing his AAR from the meeting in DC.

 Very true, but at the end of the day, isn't that the case for any business?  It's economics, a business wants to maximize profits, one variable to doing that is minimizing costs which paychecks are a part of.  Just like employees seek to do the minimum amount of work for maximum pay. Not defending pressures for lower pay, just saying it's economics.

On the other hand, I'm personally convinced that there are factions in the Air Force that enjoy screwing pilots/officers.  Whether it was a former squadron commander who got all jolly when he talked about how it was his job to QC the Air Force by giving out reprisal paperwork, whether it was that piece of work Celusta (old SOS commandant and LR AETC wing king) who told pilots to stop complaining and bragging about how he would end the careers of pilots that didn't want to play the game, or the lovely finance shop that would have their doors closed for lunch when I could hear them behind laughing at me when I was asking for help after being 3 months behind on a $10K travel voucher.

Best advice I heard about an Air Force career: "The Air Force is your second wife and you are in a disfunctional marriage.  Eventually you guys will get a divorce- best do it in your terms because she will screw you all the way to the bank."

At least in the Airlines, there are features such as Unions, contracts (not the fake ones that the Air Force never follows,) and the ability to quit and have control over your life.  But what do I know, just another whiney entitled zipper suited sun god that just wants to fly planes and hack the mission.

 

 

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HossHarris    520
3 hours ago, Jaded said:

This info was posted on the CAF fighter retention Facebook page and was deleted by the mods there. Apparently this doesn't jive with the carefully cultivated information campaign they are running. 

And I've been kicked off the page. There will be no dissent !

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Vetter    206

Oh yeah, I left out the $800 in per down.  No contest!

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Danny Noonin    394
And I've been kicked off the page. There will be no dissent !

Not exactly how it went down Hoss.


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Day Man    575
3 minutes ago, Danny Noonin said:


Not exactly how it went down Hoss.


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Story time! :beer: 

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HossHarris    520
15 minutes ago, Danny Noonin said:


Not exactly how it went down Hoss.


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So you're saying if I hadn't posted a dissenting narrative, I still would have been removed?  Doubtful. 

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Jaded    387
12 minutes ago, Danny Noonin said:

Not exactly how it went down Hoss.

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Hoss quotes this forum's rumor about the airline meeting not going well and asks for clarification. That post is deleted by the mods and called "deliberate misinformation" and "fake news." Hoss is given a snarky (imo) "thank you for your service" by the other mod and removed from the group because the rules state  fighter pilots lose their eligibility when they retire. 

That's exactly how it went down. 

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HossHarris    520

I get that if the meeting didn't go as well as the bobs had hoped it would be mildly embarrassing. If it went as badly as rumor suggests it would be really embarrassing. 

But that's no reason to bury the truth. 

Evidently I can ask Ed Bastion anything. Let's see what he has to say.....

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Herk Driver    218

But that's no reason to bury the truth. 
Evidently I can ask Ed Bastion anything. Let's see what he has to say.....

Agreed.

It would be interesting to get his or any other CEOs take on this, since we won't get that from the CSAF.


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