MDDieselPilot Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) http://federalnewsradio.com/air-force/2017/03/air-force-meeting-airlines-pilot-shortage-may/ Quote Grosso said the partnership would look for a “win-win” situation for both the airlines and the Air Force. Or as Michael Scott would say, "Now this situation is a what I like to call a Win-Win-Lose", where the airlines win, the air force wins, and our pilots lose. Because eff them. But Grosso isn't going to say that, of course. Quote “What we found in the past — and we’ve been through this before because airlines have hired before — is quality of service is as important as quality of life. And quality of service is making sure that you’re given the opportunity to be the best you can be in your design, in your chosen occupation. Pilots who don’t fly, maintainers who’s don’t maintain, controllers who don’t control, will walk. And there’s not enough money in the Treasury to keep them in if we don’t need to give them the resources to be the best they can be. In my mind, readiness and morale are inexplicably linked. Where we have high readiness, we tend to have high moral because they’re given the opportunities to compete. Where we have low readiness, we have our lowest morale,” Air Force Chief of Staff David Goldfein told the Senate Armed Services Committee last September. Funny.. I just left a squadron whose commander was adamant that the Air Force's goal is to produce leaders, not pilots. On a local we discussed the topic at length, and he told me "If you want to just fly, great.. get out and go join the guard or reserves. The Air Force wants leaders, not technicians." Trying to provide evidence to the contrary was a losing position, we found very quickly. It would seem that AF leadership is now giving a different message and being forced to acknowledge that not all of us will be, or want to be, leaders. As someone who went to UPT late and is more or less stuck in till 20, I am curious and scared to see how this unfolds. Edited March 28, 2017 by MDDieselPilot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Jesus, why does HAF think that the solution lies external to the AF/DoD? If you want to keep us in, improve conditions on the inside. CSAF needs to man up and tell the combatant commanders that they don't phucking need deployed rated staffers. Break pilots out from the LAF promotion board; I shouldn't have to compete with a finance officer who wins FGOY because he's a church elder, chili-cookoff winning, soccer mom, Girl Scout troop leader. Fix the assignment system; I'll volunteer for a shitty assignment if given a guaranteed, desirable follow-on. Money isn't everything, but don't insult us with correcting for 20 years of inflation and act like you're doing us a favor. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, MDDieselPilot said: http://federalnewsradio.com/air-force/2017/03/air-force-meeting-airlines-pilot-shortage-may/ Or as Michael Scott would say, "Now this situation is a what I like to call a Win-Win-Lose", where the airlines win, the air force wins, and our pilots lose. Because eff them. But Grosso isn't going to say that, of course. Funny.. I just left a squadron whose commander was adamant that the Air Force's goal is to produce leaders, not pilots. On a local we discussed the topic at length, and he told me "If you want to just fly, great.. get out and go join the guard or reserves. The Air Force wants leaders, not technicians." Trying to provide evidence to the contrary was a losing position, we found very quickly. It would seem that AF leadership is now giving a different message and being forced to acknowledge that not all of us will be, or want to be, leaders. As someone who went to UPT late and is more or less stuck in till 20, I am curious and scared to see how this unfolds. How did this shoe clerk expect this new crop of "leaders" to lead if they have no technical knowledge, operational experience or shared professional experience with the people they are supposedly going to lead? What was this traveling kool aid salesman's idea of when an aviator is supposed to recuse themselves from actual ops because that's just technical and leadership is really enterprise management or as they used to call it administration... last i checked Admin was not one of the core functions All rhetorical but sometimes the anecdotes of encounters with shoe clerks are infuriating My suspicion is this guy could not lead himself let alone anyone else out of paper bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 3 hours ago, MDDieselPilot said: http://federalnewsradio.com/air-force/2017/03/air-force-meeting-airlines-pilot-shortage-may/ Quote Quote “What we found in the past — and we’ve been through this before because airlines have hired before — is quality of service is as important as quality of life. And quality of service is making sure that you’re given the opportunity to be the best you can be in your design, in your chosen occupation. Pilots who don’t fly, maintainers who’s don’t maintain, controllers who don’t control, will walk. And there’s not enough money in the Treasury to keep them in if we don’t need to give them the resources to be the best they can be. In my mind, readiness and morale are inexplicably linked. Where we have high readiness, we tend to have high moral because they’re given the opportunities to compete. Where we have low readiness, we have our lowest morale,” Air Force Chief of Staff David Goldfein told the Senate Armed Services Committee last September. This sounds to me more like an echo of Gen Welsh's attempted zing directed at Congress over CRs and sequestration. They are likening QoS/QoL to flying hours as an AF-level readiness discussion, not admin-queep vs. flying and instructing. The above quote still misses the mark as to the crux of the issue, unfortunately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTB Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 5 hours ago, MDDieselPilot said: Funny.. I just left a squadron whose commander was adamant that the Air Force's goal is to produce leaders, not pilots. Insert Face palm meme. That statement belongs in the "What's wrong with the Air Force" thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I know it's a different for the fighter guys in the squadrons that stopped flying during sequestration, but on the heavy side there is no lack of flying. Completely disregarding the fact that our job requires us to fly to stay current and qualified, pilots aren't unhappy because there aren't jets to fly. Our base generates 2-3 locals per squadron per week, not counting off station JA/ATTs, TACC missions or even our sims. We actually don't have enough pilots to fill all of those lines. What pilots are tired of is having to fly locals or missions and then having to stay late into the evening afterwards or come into work during their post mission to make sure their shops don't burn down because the schedulers cleaned out the shop for the 3-4 time this month and X,Y & Z projects are due to tomorrow. I know we are all well aware this isn't a 9-5 job and personally I like that it isn't that way, the problem is when I'm staying late to do PowerPoint slides not flying jets. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HossHarris Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 So don't. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooter Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, HossHarris said: So don't. I like the "yes, if..." technique. I say yes if the DO agrees that filling local x is more important than me meeting deadline y. If the pet project is more important I don't fly, then I go back to my desk and update my spreadsheet... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire4effect Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) Possible changes to the time honored seniority system? Whether good, bad or neither remains to be seen. Edited March 28, 2017 by fire4effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the g-man Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I like the "yes, if..." technique. I say yes if the DO agrees that filling local x is more important than me meeting deadline y. If the pet project is more important I don't fly, then I go back to my desk and update my spreadsheet...In my experience the DO says fill the local, we need current and qualified pilots and progression towards AC/IP/EP so they can go work those staff jobs after they get some hours under their beltSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the g-man Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I know it's a different for the fighter guys in the squadrons that stopped flying during sequestration, but on the heavy side there is no lack of flying. Completely disregarding the fact that our job requires us to fly to stay current and qualified, pilots aren't unhappy because there aren't jets to fly. Our base generates 2-3 locals per squadron per week, not counting off station JA/ATTs, TACC missions or even our sims. We actually don't have enough pilots to fill all of those lines. What pilots are tired of is having to fly locals or missions and then having to stay late into the evening afterwards or come into work during their post mission to make sure their shops don't burn down because the schedulers cleaned out the shop for the 3-4 time this month and X,Y & Z projects are due to tomorrow. I know we are all well aware this isn't a 9-5 job and personally I like that it isn't that way, the problem is when I'm staying late to do PowerPoint slides not flying jets.QFTSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooter Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 20 minutes ago, the g-man said: In my experience the DO says fill the local, we need current and qualified pilots and progression towards AC/IP/EP so they can go work those staff jobs after they get some hours under their belt Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That's what the spreadsheet is for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetter Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Whatever the outcome of this meeting between Airline management and your Air Force leadership, the one fact is it will not be in your best interest. There is only one group on the earth that hates you more than your Air Force leadership...it's the shoe clerks in Airline management. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Whatever the outcome of this meeting between Airline management and your Air Force leadership, the one fact is it will not be in your best interest. There is only one group on the earth that hates you more than your Air Force leadership...it's the shoe clerks in Airline management.Hmmm. Maybe, but AF leadership hates us a lot. That would be some competition.Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialD Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, fire4effect said: Possible changes to the time honored seniority system? Whether good, bad or neither remains to be seen. Yikes! Goodluck getting the unions onboard with any changes to seniority. Then again, maybe APA could fuck over the TWA guys just one more time. 16 hours ago, Snooter said: That's what the spreadsheet is for... Oh...I thought by "update my spreadsheet," you really meant update airlineapps. Edited March 29, 2017 by SocialD 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 On 3/28/2017 at 2:13 PM, HossHarris said: So don't. If I wasn't still 5 years out on my ADCS, my give a shit factor would probably be a lot lower. However when the CC says "do this" and the DO says "fly airplanes, myself (or any other first assignment Captain) isn't left with many options. Sure you can fall on your sword and will probably pick up the next non-vol to UPT or RPAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooter Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Fuzz said: If I wasn't still 5 years out on my ADCS, my give a shit factor would probably be a lot lower. However when the CC says "do this" and the DO says "fly airplanes, myself (or any other first assignment Captain) isn't left with many options. Sure you can fall on your sword and will probably pick up the next non-vol to UPT or RPAs. Hell if I was a first assignment captain I would seriously consider going to upt; especially in tones. Multi-engine IP a-code time for three years while being home practically every weekend and holiday (not to mention ftu IP on a resume) would be awesome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the g-man Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Hell if I was a first assignment captain I would seriously consider going to upt; especially in tones. Multi-engine IP a-code time for three years while being home practically every weekend and holiday (not to mention ftu IP on a resume) would be awesome...Yeah but you still have to spend 3 years Ion Enid/Del Rio/Columbus Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChkHandleDn Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 On 3/28/2017 at 7:05 PM, fire4effect said: Possible changes to the time honored seniority system? Whether good, bad or neither remains to be seen. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faipmafiaofficial Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, the g-man said: Yeah but you still have to spend 3 years Ion Enid/Del Rio/Columbus Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Columbus is fine. Well worth the 1200 T-1 instructor hours Edited March 30, 2017 by faipmafiaofficial 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire4effect Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, ChkHandleDn said: As you so eloquently said. NFW. BUT we have very powerful entities namely senior military leadership (doing as directed I'm sure by our civilian leadership) and airline executives who have WAY more clout with Congress (who pays attention to the biggest taxpaying voting blocks and the reality is pilots who at best number say 600,000 nationwide don't qualify) than most on this board looking to fix a major problem effecting this country's military readiness and economic well being. And don't forget the little issue of the Railway Labor Act that takes a powerful tool (strike) essentially out of the hands of labor. As the article stated the current seniority system encourages military pilots to bail at the first opportunity to get that all important seniority number and move up the pay scale. I say never assume anything or let your guard down especially with the current administration. Edited March 30, 2017 by fire4effect Gammar and spellin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuggyU2 Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, the g-man said: Yeah but you still have to spend 3 years Ion Enid/Del Rio/Columbus Say what you will but I enjoyed my 4 years in Del Rio. Granted, that was so long ago that my Alzheimer's may have rewritten what I remember. Edited March 30, 2017 by HuggyU2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDDieselPilot Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Anyone taking bets on whether Goldfein will address his pilot corps on the what/why before he goes to the airlines and makes a deal with the devil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqwatch Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Anyone taking bets on whether Goldfein will address his pilot corps on the what/why before he goes to the airlines and makes a deal with the devil? Any guesses on the results of of that forum? You think he'll come away with anything new? Might it be another echo chamber of BO.net? I've been to several of those fireside chats with leadership. My favorite one was when a fast burning Lt Col told a three star that he was frustrated because of the lack of respect he got at the commissary. Every one of these talks has devolved into an angry mob with no direction or clear way forward.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 3 hours ago, MDDieselPilot said: Anyone taking bets on whether Goldfein will address his pilot corps on the what/why before he goes to the airlines and makes a deal with the devil? I bet 1 bottle of whiskey that he will not. Takers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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