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The Next President is...

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6 hours ago, dream big said:

He “thought” there was a problem with the way Trump conducted foreign policy.  Well too effing bad.  Military members don’t make policy, the President does; we execute that policy.  If we don’t like said policy we can get out of the military and do something about it.  This guy is either a shrill looking for attention or a complete fool.  Either way, he’s about to become the darling of the left. 

Yes he thought Trump's method of conducting foreign policy was illegal.  He went through appropriate channels and was silenced.  When another investigative body comes along and asks questions, you think he should just shut up?

Is that your answer for anytime a military person thinks they see someone break the law?  "too effing bad"...keep your mouth shut and if you can't take it then quit?  Jesus I hope you aren't in any sort of leadership position.

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D608C0D5-0427-4ACE-9F76-F8A3B3C767FD.thumb.jpeg.286723b0ec36c72fe741225ecdfa0728.jpeg
Buried last week on A16 on Turnberry Report: much ado about nothing. 

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I feel like I should get college credit for reading this. Geez. 

It’s CCAF credit, tho
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On 11/3/2019 at 2:11 PM, drewpey said:

Yes he thought Trump's method of conducting foreign policy was illegal.  He went through appropriate channels and was silenced.  When another investigative body comes along and asks questions, you think he should just shut up?

Is that your answer for anytime a military person thinks they see someone break the law?  "too effing bad"...keep your mouth shut and if you can't take it then quit?  Jesus I hope you aren't in any sort of leadership position.

How is it illegal? Show me where Trump’s foreign policy decisions are illegal and I’ll concede that the Lt Col made the right call and Trump needs to reign it in.  The Lt Col even admitted that he only “had concern,” nothing anywhere about illegal activity.

There is a dangerous precedent to be set when military members think that they can influence policy because they disagree with the administration.  Generals for example advise, but in the end if their advice is not taken they either A. shut up and color or B.  resign.  

Thanks for your concern about me being in a leadership position, I happen to be in one and encourage my subordinates to pass feedback on my decisions.  But I’m not a civilian leader in charge of the military making national policy. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, dream big said:

How is it illegal? Show me where Trump’s foreign policy decisions are illegal and I’ll concede that the Lt Col made the right call and Trump needs to reign it in.  The Lt Col even admitted that he only “had concern,” nothing anywhere about illegal activity.

There is a dangerous precedent to be set when military members think that they can influence policy because they disagree with the administration.  Generals for example advise, but in the end if their advice is not taken they either A. shut up and color or B.  resign.  

Thanks for your concern about me being in a leadership position, I happen to be in one and encourage my subordinates to pass feedback on my decisions.  But I’m not a civilian leader in charge of the military making national policy. 
 

 

It's not about whether the action was actually illegal or not, it's a matter of perception.  He perceived there was wrongdoing, brought it up.  He did the right thing.  You want to judge the action based on your perceived outcome, but that's not how things work.  You want people to voice concerns when they have them no?

You will never have a completely impartial complaint.  It's not a thing, but you all act like every opinion is immediately invalid because someone has a perceived a bias.  Immediately throwing out or silencing all complaints with any hint of bias is going to lead to there being zero complaints.  This guy isn't the judge...he isn't determining legality or punishment, he simply raised his hand and said he had concerns and was silenced.

The problem here is the right wing media is painting him as a partisan hack, which then puts the military in a bad light and you don't like.  If the media were to simply look at him as a person voicing concerns through an established process (which he is), then it wouldn't be dragging down the "impartiality" reputation of the military.  This is a predictable cycle though, as anyone who gives even the slightest shred of disagreement with Trump is immediately eaten alive, even if they are in your own party.

It's easy to get riled up over him when you look at it under these set of political circumstances, but instead imagine a similar situation happening with an IG complaint, sexual assault, a maintainer sabotaging an airplane...etc.  You don't want people out there witnessing potentially bad things to be second guessing themselves and being afraid of reporting.  Report it and let the authorities sort it out.  He did.

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8 hours ago, dream big said:

How is it illegal? Show me where Trump’s foreign policy decisions are illegal and I’ll concede that the Lt Col made the right call and Trump needs to reign it in.

In addition to what drewpey said, if you want actual statues that were potentially violated, consider 52 USC 30121 for example:

”It shall be unlawful for a person to solicit, accept, or receive (from a foreign national)... a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value... or an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election.”

Zelensky was allegedly solicited for two things: an investigation into the Bidens and a big public announcement about it. It’s the second part that ties this to an election, and makes it reasonable for a person to raise his hand and ask the question, IMO.

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On 11/5/2019 at 6:38 AM, mcbush said:

In addition to what drewpey said, if you want actual statues that were potentially violated, consider 52 USC 30121 for example:

”It shall be unlawful for a person to solicit, accept, or receive (from a foreign national)... a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value... or an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election.”

Zelensky was allegedly solicited for two things: an investigation into the Bidens and a big public announcement about it. It’s the second part that ties this to an election, and makes it reasonable for a person to raise his hand and ask the question, IMO.

How do you feel about the Clinton campaign paying a foreign national for a fake dossier filled with garbage hearsay to frame a president and subvert the democratic process?  Or Obama asking for favors from Russian diplomats because he’ll have “more flexibility after then next election?”  
 

these are rhetorical questions.  The broader point I’m trying to make is that there’s a lot of “allegedly” in your post but the actual transcript has been released and I don’t read it as quid pro quo.  Yet we know these other violations were real, not alleged.  So there’s an element of political hypocrisy undermining the narrative against our president, and invalidating the current complaint in the eyes of many people.

Were in a tough spot as a nation. 

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Am I the only one who wants Trump, Biden, and the Clintons investigated in relation to this whole Ukraine thing?

I don't care what letter you have after your name... If you used your government position for personal gain, I want you prosecuted.

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28 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Am I the only one who wants Trump, Biden, and the Clintons investigated in relation to this whole Ukraine thing?

I don't care what letter you have after your name... If you used your government position for personal gain, I want you prosecuted.

What are you talking about? There is no room for reasonable discussion. You are either on one team or the other!!!!! Who cares about the country if your team doesn't win???

I'm kidding of course, but it's amazing how many people think this way. I've been called a "libtard socialist" just because I dared to criticize Trump and I've been called a "Trumpster" if I gave any credit to Trump for anything decent that's happened in the past 3 years. It's absurd.

I just want corruption to be investigated, congress to learn about compromise, corporate money out of politics, and for the judiciary to be apolitical, but I guess that makes me an enemy to both parties.

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4 hours ago, N730 said:

What are you talking about? There is no room for reasonable discussion. You are either on one team or the other!!!!! Who cares about the country if your team doesn't win???

I'm kidding of course, but it's amazing how many people think this way. I've been called a "libtard socialist" just because I dared to criticize Trump and I've been called a "Trumpster" if I gave any credit to Trump for anything decent that's happened in the past 3 years. It's absurd.

I just want corruption to be investigated, congress to learn about compromise, corporate money out of politics, and for the judiciary to be apolitical, but I guess that makes me an enemy to both parties.

This big time ^^.... I've been called the same from both sides, and I am way right of most so called conservatives today.

The current POTUS is a DA in so many ways but many things he has accomplished are worth affirming. And while he is self serving, much like most of the past presidents have been, I think he really does love our country and I'm not sure I can say that about the immediate past guy.

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7 hours ago, pawnman said:

Am I the only one who wants Trump, Biden, and the Clintons investigated in relation to this whole Ukraine thing?

I don't care what letter you have after your name... If you used your government position for personal gain, I want you prosecuted.

Hey man as long as it is impartial and not politically biased then sure.  I think the gripe many of us have is the hypocrisy (I.e not a word about the content of Trump’s call: Biden’s shady involvement in Ukraine but a lot of hoo hah about impeachment.)   That being said, I don’t see anything impeachable in Trump’s transcript, and given the current political animosity towards the president - am skeptical about this Lt Col’s intentions.  Maybe if we hadn’t heard about impeachment and crying wolf  since before Trump took office we would be a little more interested.

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16 hours ago, pawnman said:

Am I the only one who wants Trump, Biden, and the Clintons investigated in relation to this whole Ukraine thing?

I don't care what letter you have after your name... If you used your government position for personal gain, I want you prosecuted.

I would also like everyone held to a high standard of conduct because we want decent human beings making decisions for us. But let's face facts, that's not how high-level government operates. For many (most?) at that level, the ethics and values that you and I conduct our lives in accordance with are, for them, arbitrary boundaries and obstacles to the pursuit of wealth and power while only being useful as weapons against political opponents.

I would like for a room full of people like you to investigate and hold Trump, Biden, Clinton, and all the others to the same standards. But to reach a position where you'd have the power to do that, you would have had to compromise your own principles every step of the way. Only the corrupt can investigate the corrupt.

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7 hours ago, torqued said:

I would also like everyone held to a high standard of conduct because we want decent human beings making decisions for us. But let's face facts, that's not how high-level government operates. For many (most?) at that level, the ethics and values that you and I conduct our lives in accordance with are, for them, arbitrary boundaries and obstacles to the pursuit of wealth and power while only being useful as weapons against political opponents.

I would like for a room full of people like you to investigate and hold Trump, Biden, Clinton, and all the others to the same standards. But to reach a position where you'd have the power to do that, you would have had to compromise your own principles every step of the way. Only the corrupt can investigate the corrupt.

Great.  Let's get corrupt Democrats to investigate Trump, corrupt Republicans to investigate Biden, and get rid of both.

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I would like for a room full of people like you to investigate and hold Trump, Biden, Clinton, and all the others to the same standards. But to reach a position where you'd have the power to do that, you would have had to compromise your own principles every step of the way. Only the corrupt can investigate the corrupt.


Therein lies the problem. As a nation or political class, we’ve departed the point where there is an objective standard to be held. There’s a Republican standard and a Democratic standard and both seem willing to call out the speck in the others eye while missing the log in their own. Some of these double standards would be just absurd if it wasn’t tragic what it is doing to the nation, let alone the precedents for the future of the federal government.

What bothers me the most is that there is a sliding scale of wrong doing that keeps getting more slippery. And yet it’s considered justifiable moral equivalency if it comes from your party. Republicans can’t judge Trump against the law or the Consitution any more than the Democrats can’t judge their own folks.
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6 hours ago, MechGov said:

 


Therein lies the problem. As a nation or political class, we’ve departed the point where there is an objective standard to be held. There’s a Republican standard and a Democratic standard and both seem willing to call out the speck in the others eye while missing the log in their own. Some of these double standards would be just absurd if it wasn’t tragic what it is doing to the nation, let alone the precedents for the future of the federal government.

What bothers me the most is that there is a sliding scale of wrong doing that keeps getting more slippery. And yet it’s considered justifiable moral equivalency if it comes from your party. Republicans can’t judge Trump against the law or the Consitution any more than the Democrats can’t judge their own folks.

 

The latest victim is Nikki Haley, once idolized by the left for her out spoken "with all do respect sir" comment, she has now been thrown under the bus for her revelation in her book that she would not join Tillerson or Kelly in what, at it's smallest, was insubordination, and at it's largest, potentially a coup. Either way, there is a disturbing lack of outrage over Kelly and Tillerson's attempts to undermine democracy. 

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Stock market up again in multiple days of record territory.  Low unemployment including historic lows for unemployment for various minorities.  Killing of a really bad guy overseas.  Historic number of judicial placements.  Unprecedented deficits and federal debt which is getting very little attention.  Seems alargely  offensive position.

Literally partisan impeachment inquiry.  Indeed, the only tiny bit of bipartisanship was against proceeding. John Dean, convicted felon and disbarred attorney again saying something is worse than Watergate (only in America can you make a career off that).  Philosophical wondering of if Trump's 'crime' was seeking political dirt against a rival, then how can political rivals be allowed to sit in judgement in the Senate? Second wave of Democrat presidential candidates ashore, wading past the rhetorical bodies of Swallwell, O'Rourke, and whoever else quit thus far.  Seems a defensive position.  But they did have the threesome gal there for a bit, so some sexiness.

And Hillary, who is still not President, squawking about running again.  It just won't die...  

 

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7 hours ago, brickhistory said:

Stock market up again in multiple days of record territory.  Low unemployment including historic lows for unemployment for various minorities.  Killing of a really bad guy overseas.  Historic number of judicial placements.  Unprecedented deficits and federal debt which is getting very little attention.  Seems alargely  offensive position.

Literally partisan impeachment inquiry.  Indeed, the only tiny bit of bipartisanship was against proceeding. John Dean, convicted felon and disbarred attorney again saying something is worse than Watergate (only in America can you make a career off that).  Philosophical wondering of if Trump's 'crime' was seeking political dirt against a rival, then how can political rivals be allowed to sit in judgement in the Senate? Second wave of Democrat presidential candidates ashore, wading past the rhetorical bodies of Swallwell, O'Rourke, and whoever else quit thus far.  Seems a defensive position.  But they did have the threesome gal there for a bit, so some sexiness.

And Hillary, who is still not President, squawking about running again.  It just won't die...  

 

I recognize your points, but this rhetoric is just the same thing.  Only highlighting positive things while whitewashing anything that could be argued to be divisive, illegal, stupid, or ignorant only contributes to this partisanship.  I saw a stat that like 85% of Democrats support impeachment and 87% of republicans don’t.  The Russians disinformation campaign via Facebook and news outlets to throw us against one another seems to be going swimmingly.

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28 minutes ago, brawnie said:

  The Russians disinformation campaign via Facebook and news outlets to throw us against one another seems to be going swimmingly.

You give Ivan much more credit than I.  The current divisiveness is all 'Merican.  It's good for ratings/clicks and feeds the outrage machine so the coal keeps getting shoveled into the respective angry machines. (Not a green metaphor I admit.  Greta would not be amused...)

And my previous post related to the current outlook for the 2020 Presidential election is not denigrating one side.  If I'm one side, I'm feeling pretty optimistic.  If I'm on the other, perhaps not.  

Except for the comment about the undead Hillary.  That was meant literally.

I abhor censorship.

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I wonder how many people on this forum own transgender cats...especially in this thread. 

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