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Start with the assumption that health care is not a right and the US currently has the best healthcare system in the world (not talking insurance but the system of providing health care).

Now talk.

I’m curious as to what qualifies the US healthcare system as the best in the world. Is it the fact that the best possible care that exists happens to be in the US?

What good does something that is unattainable to a slew of Americans do? It might as well not exist to them.

Should getting decent healthcare really be something that drives people into the red? Why? Don’t we have a duty to our fellow man to help them out? The system in place now, doesn’t work for a lot of people. Without insurance and pretty solid job security I’d be in major debt through zero fault of my own. Health issues are someone else’s problem until you or someone close to you is fighting them...

This one is more philosophical than an actual question: So, happiness is a right, but being healthy to enjoy it isn’t? I’m just curious.


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Biden's "kid" is a 50-something year old grown ass man.  I believe he's a grandparent for Christ's sake...

But those arguing against his being included in the mud fest sure seem ok with anyone with a last name of Trump being slimed, including a teenager because they are related to "bad orange man" so it's ok to do so.

That said, although there are some other financial shenanigans Hunter is likely to see prison time over (look for an Indian casino thing along with one business partner in jail, the other just had his sentence confirmed after appeal), cashing in on a famous last name is not likely one of them.

Where the criminal acts come in is with whatever federal officials aided/abetted/contributed/were part of a conspiracy as part of that cashing in.

"You got six hours to fire the prosecutor or you aren't getting the billion dollars" isn't a good look as part of that.

Neither is using Air Force 2 as your calling card to score personal financial success.  

The veracity of the laptop and contents have been more than proven to include, released today, a physical receipt left at the repair shop and signed by Hunter.

Biden is now officially hiding in his basement since yesterday.  For "debate prep."  That sure is convenient that the press isn't hounding him over this scandal and letting him prepare.  I'm sure they'd give Trump the same courtesy.

Not to mention the deletion of foreign policy as a topic as agreed to previously by both candidates and has been historically precedented in these debates.  Wonder why that deletion?

Finally, and the big takeaway from Hunter-gate, is the deliberate squelching of a major news story by supposedly "neutral" IT providers.  By taking their stance, both Facebook and Twitter have declared themselves as publishers.  I hope the FCC and/or Congress act accordingly.

 

edited to add:  Talking head lawyer Jeffrey Tobin of way too many liberal outlets and impeachment cheerleader was "given time off to deal with personal issues" after being caught spanking his monkey on a business zoom call.  

 

 

Oh, and our deficit is now 3.1 trillion this year.  What could possibly go wrong?

Edited by brickhistory
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Start with the assumption that health care is not a right and the US currently has the best healthcare system in the world (not talking insurance but the system of providing health care).

Now talk.


Need more information... What defines "best" regarding healthcare? This is probably the fundamental question regarding healthcare policy. So what is best? Cutting edge technologies and research in treatments? Access to basic care at adorable prices? Access to basic care covered by taxes? Access to emergency/preventative/diagnostic care?

You also make a strong assumption that you can separate insurance from the healthcare system. So long as people may need to pay for medical treatments that they can't afford to pay out of pocket for, insurance will be a factor in the discussion. It's like saying car insurance should be made optional (especially if you believe healthcare is not a right, since most people don't consider driving a car a right).

As military members, it's easy to have a skewed opinion, as Tricare has pretty good coverage and is significantly cheaper than anything comparable on the open market.

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8 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

As military members, it's easy to have a skewed opinion, as Tricare has pretty good coverage and is significantly cheaper than anything comparable on the open market.

This is one of the reasons I ask this question here.  I'm the only member of my current family generation that did the military thing. My Dad retired, got that Tricare, but emphatically urged us not to join.  Watching my brothers struggle through the financial crisis, and then medical issues really opened my eyes up to what it was costing for healthcare.

Then I married into a family w/Hemophilia.  From having eyes being open, to getting lemon juice squeezed in them.

There are competing opinions on here, but they're usually thought provoking enough and good conversation to make me think about what I want vs. what I think is right outside my little sphere.

Thanks Dudes and Dudettes.

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1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Start with the assumption that health care is not a right and the US currently has the best healthcare system in the world (not talking insurance but the system of providing health care).

Now talk.

Why can't we start here:

Are we as a culture ok with people falling into unrecoverable lifelong poverty and never returning to be productive taxpaying citizens for what amounts to losing a medical lottery?

I think the large majority of people would agree something should be done.  If so, what?

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For the leftist. Watch why conservatives think Trump is good for the nation.  

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This is one of the reasons I ask this question here.  I'm the only member of my current family generation that did the military thing. My Dad retired, got that Tricare, but emphatically urged us not to join.  Watching my brothers struggle through the financial crisis, and then medical issues really opened my eyes up to what it was costing for healthcare.

Then I married into a family w/Hemophilia.  From having eyes being open, to getting lemon juice squeezed in them.
There are competing opinions on here, but they're usually thought provoking enough and good conversation to make me think about what I want vs. what I think is right outside my little sphere.
Thanks Dudes and Dudettes.


Access to Tricare was probably the single most important factor is me deciding to take the pilot bonus (and stay to 20).

Pilot bonus put money in the bank/investment portfolio for my family if something were to happen to me (above and beyond SGLI), and check of the month would mean that even if I can't work after I reach military retirement, my family's basic needs could be met. But Tricare removes what I feel is the biggest risk to finances in retirement-healthcare costs.

Healthcare costs are probably the one big risk (in my opinion) that can ruin financial security, especially as you get closer to retirement (real retirement, and no longer working), and could potentially wipe out decades, or a lifetime, of careful financial planning.

Hell, it was hard enough to decide how much I was willing to pay when my pet cat went to the emergency vet; I can't imagine having a loved one going to the ER and having to set a price on their life because health insurance didn't cover the care (or cover enough with high deductables or co-insurance). Especially when I (eventually) am no longer working and living on a fixed income. What's the catastrophic cap for Tricare? $600 in a given year? It's low enough that as a major, it's a drop in the bucket in my emergency fund.
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47 minutes ago, drewpey said:

Why can't we start here:

Are we as a culture ok with people falling into unrecoverable lifelong poverty and never returning to be productive taxpaying citizens for what amounts to losing a medical lottery?

I think the large majority of people would agree something should be done.  If so, what?

Where in the constitution does it say the federal government has a duty to protect the citizenry from financial ruin?

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4 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

So the DNI, who reports to Trump, was nominated by Trump for the job, and been in the job since this past May, says that an email that was “verified” authentic from an anonymous source who sent it to Fox News, a media organization that is Pro-Trump, says it’s not a smear campaign?

Shocking 😂 

https://apnews.com/article/024b553e9a4ffb2716286dd134876f8a
 

Yet Giuliani says foreign sources didn’t provide the Hunter Biden emails. He says a laptop containing the emails and intimate photos was simply abandoned in a Delaware repair shop and the shop owner reached out to Giulianis lawyer.”

Seems “authentic.” So, the repair shop owner random reached out to the lawyer of the lawyer who’s job is to find dirt on Joe Biden, the father of the owner of the purported laptop, who’s running against Trump for President? And he did this possibly without trying to, I dunno, contact the owner of said laptop?

Oh and the media outlets that are making a big deal of the emails? Fox News and The New York Post which are Pro-Trump.

Well, every DNI and director of our intelligence agencies are President-appointed. So every one of them is useless? Who would you trust then to determine if there is Russian interference? Adam Schiff?

It’s a wild story, but Hunter Biden wasn’t exactly on the straight and narrow during the time period this happened. It’s also worth noting that the shop owner didn’t immediately call Giuliani. He called the FBI, who seized the computer, never called him back, and *according to Giuliani* was told to “keep his mouth shut.” After a period of time he started reaching out to people who eventually put him in touch with Giuliani, where he gave him a copy.

I’m not taking any of this story as fact until I know more. But there’s a hell of a lot more meat here than the Ukraine impeachment. We have actual emails that corroborate a quid-pro-quo when paired with Biden’s comments to the CFR. Sure, you guys are upset at Trump playing golf and taking trips. I’m not happy about it, but it’s legal. Biden using his position as VP to enrich himself via international sources is a crime. They’re different. They might feel equally as outrageous morally, but you can’t put Trump in prison for playing golf. You can put Biden in prison for getting a payday via the Chinese.

Investigate it. Follow leads. Test sources. It’s literally your job as media. The fact they won’t even do that is outrageous. Our media was terrible before, but this might be the breaking point. They’ll investigate random sources if it’s against Trump but God forbid they do the same to the other side.

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1 minute ago, HossHarris said:

Where in the constitution does it say the federal government has a duty to protect the citizenry from financial ruin?

It doesn't.  Even if health care is believed to be a "right", the gov doesn't subsidize any of our other rights provided by the constitution.  Why should health care be any different?  Especially when so many of us do not take care of ourselves.  

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It doesn't.  Even if health care is believed to be a "right", the gov doesn't subsidize any of our other rights provided by the constitution.  Why should health care be any different?  Especially when so many of us do not take care of ourselves.  


Why should the government provide healthcare coverage for military families/dependants at extremely low cost to the member? Should service members pay insurance premiums comparable to the national average for premiums?

At least for the service member, you could argue they should have healthcare coverage to protect the investment made in the service member if they have a critical skill. Should service members be covered for a pre-existing condition, or for medical accidents that happen not in the direct line of duty (say, breaking your arm while skiing on leave)? Or pay for coverage to cover non-line of duty accidents?

The government subsidizes lots of things. Food stamps, social security, medical research, basic science research, education, arts, conservation of wilderness areas, roads, housing, etc. It also (heavily) subsidizes defense. Basically, it's all an investment in our society to hopefully make us all better, even if it's not a "right."

What about combat zone tax exemption? Why not eliminate that? What purpose does it serve, besides essentially being a pay raise for doing the job we signed up to do? (Especially since HFP/IDP also exists)
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Yes, I'm posting a link instead of writing a ton of information, but I really think Rep. Dan Crenshaw did a good job talking about medical reform with Dr. Avik Roy. https://holdthesetruthswithdancrenshaw.libsyn.com/a-more-sensible-approach-to-fixing-health-care-dr-avik-roy

Dr. Roy has done some interesting studies that conclude while the US is a good system, we could do better... and Medicare for all is not the answer. He mentions a catastrophic care system (which I've been in favor of for a while) while using the market to give user choices, while not leaving those with pre-existing conditions out.

Worth the 34min if you have time.

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1 hour ago, HossHarris said:

Where in the constitution does it say the federal government has a duty to protect the citizenry from financial ruin?

This sidesteps the original question.  If we as a country are ok with it, then nothing to see and we keep walking on.  If we aren't, then we should have an actual discussion about what should change in order to help that...does it involve state solutions, constitutional amendment, or expansion of existing programs, etc.  Ignoring a problem that is affecting more and more people every year because it wasn't mentioned on a 200 year old document is a bit short sighted.

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1 hour ago, lloyd christmas said:

It doesn't.  Even if health care is believed to be a "right", the gov doesn't subsidize any of our other rights provided by the constitution.  Why should health care be any different?  Especially when so many of us do not take care of ourselves.  

Why should I, a civilian, pay for the premiums of military dependents under Tricare Prime? They didn't sign up for military service. They're not critical for national defense and security.

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34 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

Why should I, a civilian, pay for the premiums of military dependents under Tricare Prime? They didn't sign up for military service. They're not critical for national defense and security.

There is a difference in the government covering health care costs for service members/their families and people that are not employed by the US government.  The US government is not responsible for the health care for ALL citizens.

FWIW,  I had to read your post over and over again to see if I was missing something.  Are you really advocating on a military forum for the gov to not pay for health care of service member's dependents because they did not sign up for military service?  And that they are not critical for national defense and security?  

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2 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Where in the constitution does it say the federal government has a duty to protect the citizenry from financial ruin?

“...promote the general welfare...” is probably the catchall. 
Is it good if Americans are healthy?  Yes. Is it good if Americans are wealthy? Yes. 
I’m not saying that everyone just gets to be rich because America is rich (a la UAE), but to me, healthcare is like the road system. We all pay for it, some people happen to use it more than others, it helps us all.  Isn’t that the point of government?  To help the majority of the populace?

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We as a country have determined that we want certain segments of the population to have government supported health care and have for more than 50 years. Why is expanding this out to include others a bad thing if the voting populous determines that is what they want? 

Because it is stealing from some for the benefit of others. And it takes personal responsibility out of the equation.

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How do you separate the insurance aspect from healthcare? I’m not sure there’s a conversation to be had about the”best healthcare system in the world” without considering insurance in the equation. As far as “healthcare is not a right”, it’s abundantly clear that the majority of Americans would like it to be. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/03/most-continue-to-say-ensuring-health-care-coverage-is-governments-responsibility/ 

Just because a majority wants to steal from others doesn’t mean it’s right.

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Need more information... What defines "best" regarding healthcare? This is probably the fundamental question regarding healthcare policy. So what is best? Cutting edge technologies and research in treatments? Access to basic care at adorable prices? Access to basic care covered by taxes? Access to emergency/preventative/diagnostic care?

You also make a strong assumption that you can separate insurance from the healthcare system. So long as people may need to pay for medical treatments that they can't afford to pay out of pocket for, insurance will be a factor in the discussion. It's like saying car insurance should be made optional (especially if you believe healthcare is not a right, since most people don't consider driving a car a right).

As military members, it's easy to have a skewed opinion, as Tricare has pretty good coverage and is significantly cheaper than anything comparable on the open market.

I didn’t make an assumption. I stated something. That our health care (the act of giving or receiving medical treatment) is the best in the world. I made that statement. Then said I wasn’t talking about insurance. Re read my statement.

Health care isn’t a right. It’s not included in the bill of rights.

Health care is three things. But it can only be two of them at any given time. Cheap, accessible, and good. In America we make the medicine that drives the rest of the worlds medicine. Anyone can access the health care in America. But it ain’t cheap. When it becomes cheap it either has to lose the accessible or the good. They can’t all 3 stand at the same time. As for what makes it the best? Look at our mortality rates across the board and the accessibility of care. When you lose the expense then you lose quality and likely accessibility

Also yes we in the military have good health care. The military is a volunteer force. Hence you volunteered and as a bi product receive good health care. I get that there are people that can’t serve. But there is a large majority of people in this county that are told live your truth, big is beautiful, take drugs if you want, and these people have higher likely hood of medical issues. And free health care for all then glorifies their negative choices and steals from others. Because the money has to come from somewhere. Same thing with the stupid free college for all push. It’s just immoral. It’s a lie. And it’s stealing. Bottom line it’s sick.

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I’m curious as to what qualifies the US healthcare system as the best in the world. Is it the fact that the best possible care that exists happens to be in the US?

What good does something that is unattainable to a slew of Americans do? It might as well not exist to them.

Should getting decent healthcare really be something that drives people into the red? Why? Don’t we have a duty to our fellow man to help them out? The system in place now, doesn’t work for a lot of people. Without insurance and pretty solid job security I’d be in major debt through zero fault of my own. Health issues are someone else’s problem until you or someone close to you is fighting them...

This one is more philosophical than an actual question: So, happiness is a right, but being healthy to enjoy it isn’t? I’m just curious.


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See my above response for why the US is the best.

Your question about it being unattainable isn’t a good question.

Do we have a duty to our fellow man? Yes. I should help those in my community of my own volition. I shouldn’t have to pay money or face a threat at the end of a gun if I don’t want to pay for someone else’s health care. The government shouldn’t force me to pay for other peoples things. That’s not what the government is for. That’s what churches or community outreach groups are for.

I agree with you. Obama care doesn’t work.

Please educate me. Where does it say happiness is a right?

Where does it say being healthy or receiving health care is a right?

You are using half truths and mis quotes strung together in a non logical way to try and make a point. It ends up hurting your point.

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Why can't we start here:
Are we as a culture ok with people falling into unrecoverable lifelong poverty and never returning to be productive taxpaying citizens for what amounts to losing a medical lottery?
I think the large majority of people would agree something should be done.  If so, what?

What are you talking about?

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This sidesteps the original question.  If we as a country are ok with it, then nothing to see and we keep walking on.  If we aren't, then we should have an actual discussion about what should change in order to help that...does it involve state solutions, constitutional amendment, or expansion of existing programs, etc.  Ignoring a problem that is affecting more and more people every year because it wasn't mentioned on a 200 year old document is a bit short sighted.

We as a country are not okay with theft. The problem isn’t the symptoms. Fix the health issue by being healthy. Not by glorifying big is beautiful. And on and on.

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“...promote the general welfare...” is probably the catchall. 
Is it good if Americans are healthy?  Yes. Is it good if Americans are wealthy? Yes. 
I’m not saying that everyone just gets to be rich because America is rich (a la UAE), but to me, healthcare is like the road system. We all pay for it, some people happen to use it more than others, it helps us all.  Isn’t that the point of government?  To help the majority of the populace?

Have you ever looked up what the average American makes compared to the rest of the world? It’s eye opening how comparatively rich even a waitress in the US is to the median of the world.

I might recommend for you to look up why the National road system and the military are not examples of socialistic policies like health care for all is no matter how hard liberal ideology wants you to believe it.

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Yes, I'm posting a link instead of writing a ton of information, but I really think Rep. Dan Crenshaw did a good job talking about medical reform with Dr. Avik Roy. https://holdthesetruthswithdancrenshaw.libsyn.com/a-more-sensible-approach-to-fixing-health-care-dr-avik-roy
Dr. Roy has done some interesting studies that conclude while the US is a good system, we could do better... and Medicare for all is not the answer. He mentions a catastrophic care system (which I've been in favor of for a while) while using the market to give user choices, while not leaving those with pre-existing conditions out.
Worth the 34min if you have time.

Thanks for posting this. I’ll try to give it a watch this afternoon.

Hey Guardian, this is an example of moving things forward, not just saying, “you’re wrong and your argument is stupid” because you somehow think you’re right. You’re one of the main guys I was referring to who thinks his poop doesn’t stink. You, I guess, have a copyright on being correct...


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