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Other points to ponder...why is Barr's letter on the Russian investigation completely at odds with the bipartisan senate intelligence community report annex that was recently released?  Why have all of Trump's 2016 campaign managers been arrested?  Why does Trump keep hiring people he later describes as wackos, overrated or "dumb as a rock"?

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You'd have to ask Trump about his personnel choices.

As I understand it, the Senate report documents the facts of attempted, possibly successful, influence on the 2016 election with Russia favoring Trump and China favoring Clinton.  That the report is not about the investigations into the Trump campaign and administration but rather about foreign attempts on our election systems.  Which, by the way, occurred under Obama's watch and he, literally, did nothing.

That said, my on-going concern with the Russiagate/Obamagate thing is the strong possibility that one administration actively used the instruments of US power - mainly federal law enforcemet and intel community - to spy on and delay/obstruct/interfere with the actions of, another succeeding administration.

If that's true, it's really bad.  As in end of the Republic bad.

Political shenanigans are one thing, but when rank and file worker bees choose sides and use their offices/powers to aid/abet that use, I fear that.  Against me, against you, against anyone.  And if it's happened already, it's very likely to happen again, and worse, unless there are public consequences against those that did so.  

Certainly, I hope to see Brennan (admitted former Communist, not a wild accusation, but historical fact.  Not to mention that he literally spied on the Senate, lied to them under oath, then got caught out, and the then-Democrat led Senate did nothing...) led away in cuffs.  Same for some other high-profile folks involved. 

 

But if Clinesmith, Vindmann, et al, feel like they can take on political leadership they don't happen to like, then it's all moot and we become who can gain/hold power by means that I don't get a vote about.   I fear it is too late, but I am hoping that if there are fairly severe consequences, that others in the future won't be so quick to say, "Sure, I'll do that."

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Is that worse than members of a campaign actively working with agents of a foreign country to find and release "dirt" on a presidential opponent? What about members of a transition team initiating backdoor talks with a foreign government to overturn US policy?

Also how is Vindman any different than Oliver North? He was subpoenaed by Congress to testify.

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1 hour ago, Breckey said:

Is that worse than members of a campaign actively working with agents of a foreign country to find and release "dirt" on a presidential opponent? What about members of a transition team initiating backdoor talks with a foreign government to overturn US policy?

Also how is Vindman any different than Oliver North? He was subpoenaed by Congress to testify.

First sentence: proven this happened with the Clinton campaign.  Any proof Trump campaign did this?  


Second sentence: the transition team is supposed to initiate back door talks with other governments.  That’s how you get ready for front door talks a few months later.  And by “overturn US policy” do you mean “initiate new US policy they were elected to execute?”

Third sentence: what does that question have to do with anything?  I’m confused at the relevance of the connection.

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2 hours ago, brickhistory said:

As I understand it, the Senate report documents the facts of attempted, possibly successful, influence on the 2016 election with Russia favoring Trump and China favoring Clinton.  That the report is not about the investigations into the Trump campaign and administration but rather about foreign attempts on our election systems.  Which, by the way, occurred under Obama's watch and he, literally, did nothing.

I appreciate your unabashed honesty of your ignorance.  It's clear you haven't read anything about it and have gone to great lengths to avoid learning anything about the report, and nothing I say with change that.  Back to fox news old man.

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Fox is the new NBC.  Do try to keep up.

So, for my edification, and others, what does it say?  Is my boiled down version suitable for a thread post wrong?  If so, how?

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A follow-up, but related questions for those on the opposite side of the view:

Are you ok with the Clinton server/e-mail investigation complete with the 8-10 TS/SCI, SAP/STO e-mails?

Are you ok with the use of federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies to investigate an opponent for political reasons?

Would you be ok if the party that used those agencies in such a manner?

I would and am not.

If one side does it and gets away with it - the deliberate and intentional use of federal resources, law enforcement techniques, and intelligence sources and methods - to investigate and/or hinder the policies of that oppostion, then any look at history will show that such will simply increase.  If there are no consequences to misdeeds, then why not do it?

As I wrote in a previous post, unmaskings of Americans, wildly overused by the Obama Administration, are at an industrial scale under the current one.

It is that use of instruments of federal power against Americans, much more than the political back and forth, that interests me on this issue.

One rule of law or not.  If not, then you and I need to ensure we get to be on the winning side because it's gonna suck to be on the losing one.  And elections won't matter then.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

First sentence: proven this happened with the Clinton campaign.  Any proof Trump campaign did this?  

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Report Vol. 5 page 943.

Quote

The Committee's bipartisan Report found that a member of the Trump Campaign's foreign policy advisory team was provided with advance notice of the Russian plot to anonymously release hacked emails that would damage Trump's opponent and the Report found that it is implausible that this information was not passed to the Campaign. The advance notice of a forthcoming covert Russian intervention on Trump's behalf came from an individual linked to the Russian government, and took place in April 2016, prior to any public awareness of the Russian meddling effort. No authorities were notified.

 

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Second sentence: the transition team is supposed to initiate back door talks with other governments.  That’s how you get ready for front door talks a few months later.  And by “overturn US policy” do you mean “initiate new US policy they were elected to execute?

Back door talks should not include urging an ambassador to "delay a vote or veto a pending UN Security Council resolution."

Ref. https://www.lawfareblog.com/michael-flynn-plea-agreement-documents

 

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Third sentence: what does that question have to do with anything?  I’m confused at the relevance of the connection.

This was a reply to brickhistory on Vindman "feel[ing] like they can take on political leadership they don't happen to like, then it's all moot and we become who can gain/hold power by means that I don't get a vote about"

Edited by Breckey

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6 hours ago, brickhistory said:

Blather and nonsense.

As I wrote in a previous post, unmaskings of Americans, wildly overused by the Obama Administration, are at an industrial scale under the current one.

More blather and nonsense.

Do you have anything showing this was "wildly overused" by the Obama administration.  Given this was a new level of interference by a formidable state actor, with a willing and compliant candidate and transition team...what options would you suggest the current President use?  Don't act like historical norms should be adhered to, this was new ground.

I've gone through the Intelligence training on collection and the other things you mention.  You're acting like it got brought up to the Honorable Appointees and they went, "Republican?  Fuck em." 

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6 hours ago, Breckey said:

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Report Vol. 5 page 943.

So I just spent the last hour reading the various reports. Something I planned to do eventually, but haven’t.

You do realize that you’re not actually quoting the report’s findings here, right? That entire section is a statement put out by Sens. Heinrich (D-NM), Feinstein (D-CA), Wyden (D-OR), Harris (D-CA) and Bennett (D-CO). 

The person they’re referring to is George Papadopolous, and what the report does say is that he “likely” knew about Russian interference after talking with Mifsud at a conference. He then repeated what Mifsud told him when speaking to other foreign governments during his cocktail party tour.

The committee didn’t find that secret files were handed over to George. No one from GRU sat him down and gave him a scoop. A “Maltese academic with long-standing Russia ties,” told him something, that he then tried to use to boost his credibility. Everyone knows that idiot who tries to become popular by saying “by the way, I heard that...” He’s that guy. Not to mention, he’s basically a SrA in the Trump structure.

For those curious. The actual report findings are on page 10 of the pdf here: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/report_volume5.pdf

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Thanks Kiloalpha; I had intended to begin writing a reply but IRL things come up.  I don’t know why I start engaging here when I never have time to continue!  Just dumb I guess.

 

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Now Nancy Pelosi is saying that Biden shouldn't debate Trump.

 

Wonder why?

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25 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

Now Nancy Pelosi is saying that Biden shouldn't debate Trump.

 

Wonder why?

Because....you know....the thing!!

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Biden gave a speech yesterday in Pittsburgh.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/joe-biden-speech-pittsburgh-trump-violence-cities/

 

Here was the crowd (all journalists):

joe-biden-pittsburgh-speech-6-reporters-600x384.jpg

Biden had some really weird sentences that literally made no sense.  Could be he couldn't read the teleprompter.  Could be the fact that he's 77.

And he took no questions.  

From an audience of only journalists.

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Biden gave a speech yesterday in Pittsburgh.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/joe-biden-speech-pittsburgh-trump-violence-cities/
 
Here was the crowd (all journalists):
joe-biden-pittsburgh-speech-6-reporters-600x384.jpg
Biden had some really weird sentences that literally made no sense.  Could be he couldn't read the teleprompter.  Could be the fact that he's 77.
And he took no questions.  
From an audience of only journalists.

You’re right, Trump never is incoherent... Why do people continue to make this stupid point. For every video of Biden (I’m no fan of Biden BTW) you can probably find 2 or more of Trump allowing hot air out without making a single point. Except maybe how awesome he is and how unfair the media is.

Also, super great slam on someone trying to show actual leadership and set an example of what leadership is requesting people do... What a tool for trying to do the right thing. He should make fun of someone with a disability instead, or refuse to condemn extremists that support him. That would make the Trump crowd happy.


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5 minutes ago, slackline said:


You’re right, Trump never is incoherent... Why do people continue to make this stupid point. For every video of Biden (I’m no fan of Biden BTW) you can probably find 2 or more of Trump allowing hot air out without making a single point. Except maybe how awesome he is and how unfair the media is.

Also, super great slam on someone trying to show actual leadership and set an example of what leadership is requesting people do... What a tool for trying to do the right thing. He should make fun of someone with a disability instead, or refuse to condemn extremists that support him. That would make the Trump crowd happy.


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He’s a fucking vegetable. 

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He’s a ing vegetable. 

Unsure which septuagenarian you’re referring too? The one who can’t walk down a super steep ramp? Or the one who recognizes he’s in a high risk category, therefore keeping an appropriate distance away from them. Please be more specific.

ETA: I think both men are absolutely horrible options for leading this country. Why can’t good people make it to the highest levels? Maybe I’m an idealist, but I don’t buy the argument (unsure if it’s FLEA who’s made it or not) that people don’t care about the morals and ethics of the person in the office. I also don’t buy that you can’t remain a good person and make it to those levels. Unfortunately though, there are more stupid people out there who’ll buy every argument the liars make, and those stupid people get a vote too.

I still don’t know what I’m going to do when vote time comes. I do know that one makes my skin crawl a lot less than the other, and he currently represents our country.

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2 hours ago, slackline said:




ETA: I think both men are absolutely horrible options for leading this country. Why can’t good people make it to the highest levels? Maybe I’m an idealist, but I don’t buy the argument (unsure if it’s FLEA who’s made it or not) that people don’t care about the morals and ethics of the person in the office. I also don’t buy that you can’t remain a good person and make it to those levels. Unfortunately though, there are more stupid people out there who’ll buy every argument the liars make, and those stupid people get a vote too.

 

Specifically? Biden is a vegetable.  Trump has regressed to a child. But I’m with you on this part. 

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3 hours ago, slackline said:


I still don’t know what I’m going to do when vote time comes. I do know that one makes my skin crawl a lot less than the other, and he currently represents our country.

I understand you’re not fond of President Trump.  However, do you honestly assess Biden as mentally competent enough to be POTUS?  He clearly suffers from declining cognitive abilities.  

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Meanwhile in the Flynn soap opera,  on Monday, the entire DC Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the panel's decision to, essentially, vacate the case and sent it back to the District Court judge with the last line of the ruling "for him to finish this espeditiously." (paraphrased).  The Court did not want to set a precedent of if you didn't like a judge's ruling, you could seek to get another judge.  Since Sullivan, the original District judge, hasn't ruled on dismissing the Flynn case after DOJ dropped prosecution, the Appeals Court is saying "let him rule before seeking appeal."  But Sullivan's appointment of a separate counsel to defend why he, Sullivan, shouldn't proceed with sentencing makes him hardly impartial.

That judge has set a 21 Sep date for the now three parties - Flynn, DOJ, and the judge's prosecutor - to come to an agreement about when to proceed. Which means any further action is even further down the road.  Some have conjectured that the judge has been trying all along to delay this until, to him, a new Biden DOJ picks the prosecution back up.

The times set do, IMO, seem to reinforce that belief especially given the Appeals Court's direction to "finish this."

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On 9/1/2020 at 6:07 PM, tac airlifter said:

I understand you’re not fond of President Trump.  However, do you honestly assess Biden as mentally competent enough to be POTUS?  He clearly suffers from declining cognitive abilities.  

Yes, the status quo is clearly the epitome of mental acuity...

“Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you’re a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.”

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36 minutes ago, FDNYOldGuy said:

Yes, the status quo is clearly the epitome of mental acuity...

“Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you’re a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.”

Now your what-about is making this into a game of relativity, and everyone loses that game. This does not change that Biden is incoherent. 

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5 hours ago, FDNYOldGuy said:

Yes, the status quo is clearly the epitome of mental acuity...

“Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you’re a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.”

Pure poetry. I know poets and that man is the orator of our generation. Believe me.  He knows words. He has the best words. 

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