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The Next President is...


disgruntledemployee

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2 hours ago, slackline said:

I'll bite.

Not surprised with Trump. Surprised with people's continued defense of his actions/"leadership". Surprised officers think Trump has any leadership skills whatsoever. Surprised it isn't clearly, painfully obvious that he has way less leadership capability than virtually every president in recent history.

I wasn't a fan of Obama before or during his presidency, but he clearly exhibited more leadership capability than Trump has at any point during his 4 years. By yours and the other points made here, making decisions doesn't equate to leadership. Being an executive, running multiple failed companies doesn't equate to leadership. Being a reality TV personality doesn't equate to leadership.

By your question, I take it to mean a person has no place running the Free world without massive experience in leadership? In your incredibly wise opinion, what's that bar/limit?

AF officers have no place in most leadership capacities by your logic. "Leading" a two, fourship or , whoa, an LFE is actual leadership? Leading a squadron with maybe 100 people? Stop kidding yourself. MX officers have twice as much leadership as most of us pilots by the time they're Captains, but that's heresy in the pilot's AF. People get offended, but you are being hypocritical saying Obama had no leadership experience when you claim your own experience is actually leadership. Trump made for "ok" reality TV, that's it. He's been a failure who was given a massive jumpstart by daddy, and survived off name recognition the rest of the time. I'm using some hyperbole, but you get the idea...

I'd almost guarantee that most of the intelligent people in this board, if I were able to give them the amount of money Trump was given by his daddy, would be just as rich if not moreso by now. With a much less questionable history (you know, misogyny, disgusting comments about dating his daughter, and clear evidence of racism) and a lot less bankruptcies...

But Trump is a great leader, sure.

Seriously, a PT boat skipper equates for you? You're probably in the group that includes leading an LFE as massive leadership experience and thinks a fighter pilot could easily lead any other type of squadron because they know BFM...

People often aren't prepared for the govt position they're given. They are surrounded by people invested in ensuring they have good advice and help. Most depend on that. Some, Trump, ignore it because they "know" better than everyone. Trump's publicly claimed as much. He knows more than his generals about all the military decisions he's made. He said so... Great leader. You guys win.

ETA: Let me clarify that while I do acknowledge leading in combat and even in LFEs is actual leadership, my point is that it is a very specific form of leadership that doesn’t slice across all situations nicely. I’ve led in the flying world and the non-flying world. Two different animals.

Thanks for the response.

First, my broader point is that making an argument about Trump being an outlier, bad-(leader/executive/whatever), or otherwise for firing people isn't a good point. The man fires a lot of people, has fired a lot of people in the past, and will probably fire a lot of people in the future. We knew this before he was president and now we feign surprise? Or use it to make some meta-point about him being X? I just don't think arguments that ignore the context of who someone is really get anywhere - that's what I was trying to get at.

Honestly, I have been basically pretty neutral about ALL the presidents I have served under and if I'm being honest, haven't seen that big of a difference between Bush, Obama, and now Trump. My day-to-day has been fairly consistent and IMO not tied to who was in the white house. What I don't like is the hyper focus on personalities that we (meaning smart officers) are exhibiting throughout this tumultuous time. If I could go back four years and examine my opinion about what the impending Trump presidency would have looked like, I would have proved myself 100% correct - which is to say he didn't change all that much. The political and media apparatus was fully united against him and invested in a useless presidency. And low and behold, that's more or less what we've had. So all that is to say I don't worry too much about any one individual, as much as we like to pin the tail on the donkey, some of these problems require more that one person to address. That said, I am extremely concerned about what I see taking place within the democrat party.

To your point about leadership, fine, I guess, but I've never been one to drink the AF's koolaid that leadership is a magical panacea for each, every, and all problem. That's a meme, and one that I think infects a lot of peoples' mindset in the AF. What we're missing most, IMO, is job competence and accountability. Are those functions of leadership? I suppose depending on your frame, more or less so. But when we call literally everything a leadership problem, we lose focus on how to solve problems because everything becomes the proverbial nail.

Re: MX officers being better able to lead the USAF. This argument is the literal manifestation of "my dick is bigger than yours so I should be in charge." God bless our MX leadership - lord knows I don't want to do it. That said, the size of the organization they've "led" doesn't lead to them knowing the first thing about winning an air war or leading an air campaign. Nope. That's why they're not in charge of the Air Force and also why they should never be in charge of the Air Force. It's also why the type of leadership (or skillset, perhaps) disparaged above is exactly what's required - because it's serves the greater, fundamental purpose of our organization. No matter how many 0700 meetings some O-5/6 spends going over the blotter, they won't ever have the experience garnered only from Red/Green Flag, combat, pilot training, etc. They work a critical piece of the USAF, but it still only serves a supporting role.

Finally, about DT's racism. Fine - he's extremely crass and says shitty things. But consider, if you will, that Joe Biden chose a running mate based on two primary factors: a v_gina and dark skin. Which of those (or both) qualifies you to lead the free world? Maybe it wasn't either. Maybe it was her ability to garner peak support of 15%? Maybe it was her ability to drop out of the race when she was teetering at about %1? The point is that the democrats are literally choosing their leadership based on what flavor of ice cream you are - it's not about any ability - let's not kid ourselves. That is racism - any which way you slice it. And it's particularly dangerous because it's "acceptable" - it's disguised. It is all done in order to create the facade of a "diverse coalition" in order to implement whatever bullshit they know they wouldn't be able to get done with white guys at the helm. Their "diversity" is a tool.

Consider, if you will, California's most recent attempt to instantiate a racist policy into law (https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/prop-16-failed-in-california) - thankfully it failed. Consider the numerous other examples from the democrat party wherein they are attempting to do wildly Un-American things (i.e. blanket student debt forgiveness). So while DT may be an incompetent, racist, homophobe and everybody knows it - look at what the "woke" democrat party is trying to do - and they have the media on their side. That worries me a lot more than one Obama or one Trump. Hence, my disillusionment with the hyper-focus one individual.

Edited by ViperMan
censorship; clarification
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10 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

Subjective, he was the Chairman for the Subcommittee on European Affairs. He was law school professor, State Senator, and U.S. Senator. To skip being a Rep in the House to go being a U.S. Senator that young is pretty amazing.

I'll translate:

 

No, he didn't lead anything.

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1 hour ago, SurelySerious said:

I’ll take combat leadership over law school professor any day. 

I’ll take a law professor and senator over whatever Trump is calling his leadership skills. Has he ever led anything that didn’t end in bankruptcy?

Ill start: Trump University, Trump Steaks, the Taj Mahal..... Please don’t confuse Trump’s business acumen with his ability to pimp his brand. 

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If you think trump has exhibited anything resembling good leadership during his tenure, you are not a serious person.  There are some pro-trump arguments I can buy: you like him on policy, or because he's a middle finger troll to the radical left, but good leadership is not one of them.  
 

On the topic of administration turnover:

-yes every administration has turnover

-no it isn't inherently a bad thing

-no it isn't surprising the "you're fired" guy has fired a lot of people

I just wonder how trump supporters justify the scathing criticisms coming from high profile resignees like Mattis.  10 minutes ago Mattis was the most respected military leader in a generation and proof positive that trump was putting an incredible team together. But when he says trump is an incompetent egomaniac who's impossible to work with, it's chaffed off with incredible ease.  

 

Edited by Pooter
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"you can only get this quality of steak in my resorts and america's finest restaurants"

... and literally any butcher shop, medium to high end grocery store, any other mail order steak service, costco or sams club.  

 

Wasn't it a wonderful world back when his substance-less bloviating was limited to nonsense claims about meat quality

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25 minutes ago, Sim said:

Unironically believing that Trump is blundering idiot that stumbled into building skyscrapers with his name on and becoming POTUS.  🤣 🤥  

Never said he's a blundering idiot.  He's world-class at many things including: being a shyster used-car salesman,  a self-aggrandizing branding expert, and an incredibly popular TV personality.  Unfortunately none of those qualities translate well into leading a country.  

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5 hours ago, Homestar said:

I’ll take a law professor and senator over whatever Trump is calling his leadership skills. Has he ever led anything that didn’t end in bankruptcy?

Ill start: Trump University, Trump Steaks, the Taj Mahal..... Please don’t confuse Trump’s business acumen with his ability to pimp his brand. 

Invalid at release, I was comparing JFK and Obama, Trump was not considered in my post because I don’t care about him. 
 

Any other mis-aimed points you want to make?

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6 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Thoughtful discussion and words from ViperMan

Appreciate the dialogue that doesn't contain childish insults or sources like Rudy Giuliani or OAN.  

We'll just agree to disagree about the magical panacea, mostly because I'm not sure what you're referring to, what your definition of leadership is, and many other things that might be covered by that blanket statement.  I'll try to define what my idea of leadership is for you, and then we can shift from their to get on target.  Contrary to many fighter pilots' beliefs, EQ is actually incredibly important, even in the vault or stepping, or in the middle of a long sortie in combat.  Someone on here recently dismissed it as if it weren't important because they "just want someone who will hack the mish," or something equally as shortsighted.  A leader in combat should definitely be proficient in their specific mission set, but if they don't know how to actually work with different personalities their tactical prowess will only last so long, and they're inviting problems down the road.  I'm not sure how everything isn't a leadership problem at some level... Sometimes leadership means you picking up the slack and doing it yourself, sometimes it means letting your people stumble through the mental gymnastics to figure it out on their own, and sometimes it means you find the right people for that specific problem, or simply giving your people the parameters in which they should work and being accountable to the consequences.  There's chasms of difference in how to do those things and everything in between.  But that's leadership.  

I never said MX officers should be running the AF.  Their flavor of leadership isn't a cure all for every problem, but unfortunately, until very recently, the AF did a piss poor job teaching their people anything real about actual leadership.  The only people who got that training were very senior, and even then, maybe they did some, maybe they didn't.  I'm sorry, but combat leading is just as niche as running a MX squadron, maybe even more so, and I can't force you to see that, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree there too.  Most of my time in the 60 is combat, so I don't disagree that it teaches you valuable lessons, but not every AF level leadership problem requires a split-second, life or death risk decision.  Most of it is actually very boring.  If you only know combat level, tactical leadership, you'll be ill prepared for dealing with other required types of leadership problems.  Again, nothing I say will apparently make you believe this, but that's your deal, and anyone you supervise will have to manage.  Not saying you're not a great leader, maybe you are, but I'd put solid money that if your attitude is that only combat, aircrew leadership is the way to run the AF, you have unhappy people in your organization.  

I know a lot of great leaders in the AF, but they don't rely on their experience in the cockpit for real leadership 90%+ of the time.  They have worked on making themselves better leaders to benefit the people they are serving.  They read up on how to be better, not just in the vault...

On the pick of Harris being a racist thing, "whatever Russ, whatever..."  That's a fairly cynical, myopic viewpoint.  I think she's a crappy politician, but that's my opinion.  Plenty of people don't.  See, Sim's post about 73 million people thinking DT knows how to lead a country...  We're all entitled to our opinion.  If you label them all as stupid, I can't help you.  Heaven knows there's plenty of people on the left labeling all Trump supporters as stupid.  That's doing wonders for our country...

No clue what you're talking about on CA, don't really care.  If everything in CA but the Redwoods and Yosemite fell into the Pacific Ocean tomorrow, I wouldn't mind.  CA is full of crazies, so of course they're going to do/say stupid things.  

Edited by slackline
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6 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

I’ll take combat leadership over law school professor any day. 

Considering the CinC is surrounded by experts from every slice, this is an incredibly questionable statement.  What makes combat experience (such a teeny, tiny sliver of the things POTUS does) so much more important than a solid understanding of the law for POTUS?  If you think combat is what takes up most of POTUS's time, you watch too much TV.  

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3 minutes ago, slackline said:

Considering the CinC is surrounded by experts from every slice, this is an incredibly questionable statement.  What makes combat experience (such a teeny, tiny sliver of the things POTUS does) so much more important than a solid understanding of the law for POTUS?  If you think combat is what takes up most of POTUS's time, you watch too much TV.  

You mean from the perspective of making impact decisions, the combat leadership that JFK had versus being a law school professor where you lecture and don’t make any high pressure decisions? That experience difference? Please, spare me. Being a law school professor is not a high pressure leadership course. 

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4 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

You mean from the perspective of making impact decisions, the combat leadership that JFK had versus being a law school professor where you lecture and don’t make any high pressure decisions? That experience difference? Please, spare me. Being a law school professor is not a high pressure leadership course. 

Didn't say it was.  You guys will accept a reality tv star, so a law professor should be a step up...  My point still stands.  You seem to think your slice of the world is the only one out there.  It kills me, the staggering amount of people that think combat experience is somehow a magic pill for making "impact decisions".  Might it help?  You bet.  Maybe JFK was a totally mediocre guy in the military.  We all know that just because the citation on your medal and your OPR say you're a hero, it doesn't mean it's true...

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Just now, slackline said:

Didn't say it was.  You guys will accept a reality tv star, so a law professor should be a step up...  My point still stands.  You seem to think your slice of the world is the only one out there.  It kills me, the staggering amount of people that think combat experience is somehow a magic pill for making "impact decisions".  Might it help?  You bet.  Maybe JFK was a totally mediocre guy in the military.  We all know that just because the citation on your medal and your OPR say you're a hero, it doesn't mean it's true...

Dude, am I talking about Trump? No. The comparison was Obama as a young Pres vs JFK as a young Pres and who actually had leadership development. 

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3 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Dude, am I talking about Trump? No. The comparison was Obama as a young Pres vs JFK as a young Pres and who actually had leadership development. 

Yeah, I get that, but I'm drawing it out to show the comparison is not a good comparison.  If you can compare those two, why can't we then compare Obama and Trump?  It has a little more relevance to current events don't you think?  Who cares about JFK in this discussion?  

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7 minutes ago, slackline said:

Yeah, I get that, but I'm drawing it out to show the comparison is not a good comparison.  If you can compare those two, why can't we then compare Obama and Trump?  It has a little more relevance to current events don't you think?  Who cares about JFK in this discussion?  

Because the original discussion here was whether Obama as a law school professor and junior Senator had any leadership experience before the White House, and in that frame JFK as a young similarly aged President is a far better comparison. 

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2 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Because the original discussion here was whether Obama as a law school professor and junior Senator had any leadership experience before the White House, and in that frame JFK as a young similarly aged President is a far better comparison. 

Ok, sure.  You were totally right to introduce a completely new player into the discussion on whether or not Trump is a good leader or not.  Well done...

Conversation goes: Trump's a bad leader. 

People naturally say Obama sucks more, he was too young to lead.

People then say Trump is a reality TV star and ignores his smart people.

SurelySerious says JFK was better than Obama in the leadership department because he was military.

You win...

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5 minutes ago, slackline said:

Ok, sure.  You were totally right to introduce a completely new player into the discussion on whether or not Trump is a good leader or not.  Well done...

Conversation goes: Trump's a bad leader. 

People naturally say Obama sucks more, he was too young to lead.

People then say Trump is a reality TV star and ignores his smart people.

SurelySerious says JFK was better than Obama in the leadership department because he was military.

You win...

Was I addressing Trump? No, your line of drivel is invalid. I was addressing the adoration for Obama as a great leader automatically because he had been a Senator as his qualification. Just because you can’t comprehend it, doesn’t mean that it’s wrong. 

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