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23 hours ago, waveshaper said:

The commander of the Turkish navy, Admiral Veysel Kosele...

Interesting first name for an Admiral (awfully close to "vessel").

 

Back on topic: Those boats are gonna have to get resupply from somewhere if they don't go home - even a nuke boat (which I don't believe the Turks have) has to get food & other stores semi-regularly, either via port visit or UNREP (don't know if the Turks do UNREP).

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11 hours ago, waveshaper said:

At least the Turks haven't cut our fuel supply "yet".

Yup - Erdogan is applying what pressure he can for extradition of Gulen without causing damage, just being annoying... if he ups the ante then lets pull up stakes and throw cold water on direct military to military cooperation with Turkey.

Interesting article on Erdogan's jet and what is reported on Coup F-16s trying to ID it for an intercept (seems they were more interested in forcing a landing than a shootdown)...

Switched transponder to a Turkish Airlines code and cut all nav / strobe lighting, F-4s tried to provide cover for his jet but had no AAM...  

https://warisboring.com/pilots-flying-old-f-4-fighters-were-the-turkish-presidents-most-loyal-aerial-defenders-f05322e31146#.c10c9h3u9

Edited by Clark Griswold
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49 minutes ago, Prosuper said:

Can we move our nukes out of there now?

The U.S. policy on "Special Weapons" is we will not confirm nor deny their presence or absence. That being said, it might be wise to do a semi normal PNAF mission now versus waiting for things to spiral totally out of control and "attempting" a ENAO mission.

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The U.S. policy on "Special Weapons" is we will not confirm nor deny their presence or absence. That being said, it might be wise to do a semi normal PNAF mission now versus waiting for things to spiral totally out of control and "attempting" a ENAO mission.

Of course, there's always that other way to load em up and fly em out...if Chuck's too busy for PNAF...

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Operation Euphrates Shield is now well underway; Turkish/NATO backed FSA forces versus US/NATO backed SDF/YPG Kurdish forces. I'm still not sure how to characterize this particular piece of the on going conflict in Syria/NATO versus NATO proxy war or something else? 

The SDF/YPG just released the video of a Turkish Tank being destroyed yesterday, in northern Syria (1 KIA/2 WIA). After watching the video I'm surprised that the entire crew wasn't killed. It has been reported that Russian-made Kornet anti-tank missiles were used (9M133 or NATO designation AT-14). These missiles (HEAT/tandem warhead) can penetrate 40 plus inches of armor (up to 52 inches depending on model). The first missile in the video that hits the building looks like a dud since only the small forward tandem, reactive armor defeating, warhead appears to function.

 

Edited by waveshaper
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Operation Euphrates Shield is now well underway; Turkish/NATO backed FSA forces versus US/NATO backed SDF/YPG Kurdish forces. I'm still not sure how to characterize this particular piece of the on going conflict in Syria/NATO versus NATO proxy war or something else? 

The SDF/YPG just released the video of a Turkish Tank being destroyed yesterday, in northern Syria (1 KIA/2 WIA). After watching the video I'm surprised that the entire crew wasn't killed. It has been reported that Russian-made Kornet anti-tank missiles were used (9M133 or NATO designation AT-14). These missiles (HEAT/tandem warhead) can penetrate 40 plus inches of armor (up to 52 inches depending on model). The first missile in the video that hits the building looks like a dud since only the small forward tandem, reactive armor defeating, warhead appears to function.

 

Looked like a hull strike or a hit on the track and drive wheel assembly themselves. No massive cook off since the spall and penetration would have been concentrated in the hull and not the turret ammo storage. All that fire is constant and save for one small secondary which since it didn't shoot straight up in a concentrated stream appeared to be something mounted or stored outside. Fire rapidly looses intensity probably fuel storage mounted on the outside hull for extended field ops. If it did hit drive wheels or power pack that'll eat a lot of the explosive effect since it's now effectively having to penetrate layered metals dissipating/misdirecting the chemical form penetrator. Probably why 2 crew members survived.

All of Turkeys tanks are Western style builds (US M series and Leo types). No doubt had that been a Soviet build T series that would have been a whole lot worse and more spectacular since all the rounds sit down in the bottom of the hull. Definitely a firepower kill but not nearly as catastrophic as some of the TOW/HF vs T-72 kills from desert storm.

Either way, don't park a tank exposed and stationary on the front slope of a terrain feature in full view of an anti tank team. That's just asking for them to try it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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4 hours ago, waveshaper said:

Operation Euphrates Shield is now well underway; Turkish/NATO backed FSA forces versus US/NATO backed SDF/YPG Kurdish forces. I'm still not sure how to characterize this particular piece of the on going conflict in Syria/NATO versus NATO proxy war or something else? 

I think we are like this dog, we got stuck in a shithole ( the ME in general and specifically the Sunni-Shia proxy war(s) ) and can't find a good way out...

pNctpfib5ZpiU.gif

If we pull out (sts) Al Assad, Russia and Iran win.  If we stay, we have to commit a lot of resources (lives, money, time, effort, etc.)  that will probably not get a win, but merely an acceptable end state, whatever the hell that is exactly we don't even know.

CATO institute opinion on the matter, decent opinion piece:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/its-time-admit-american-intervention-cant-fix-syria

 

Edited by Clark Griswold
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Here's the latest tit-for-tat. The list of names of those wanted by these Turks on Incirlik AB range from the Wing King/other Officers/Enlisted (see article for Names/Rank).

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/08/08/turkish-lawyers-seek-arrest-us-service-members-incirlik-air-base.html

https://www.newsweek.com/turkey-wants-arrest-american-troops-ties-terrorist-group-1065017?piano_t=1

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We’re still planning to sell these bastards the F-35? We should get out of Incirlik and work our damndest to get them removed from NATO. That prick leading their country is nothing but an Islamofascist.

If we let them touch an F-35, they’ll have Russia and China closely examining it in short order.

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7 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:

We’re still planning to sell these bastards the F-35? We should get out of Incirlik and work our damndest to get them removed from NATO. That prick leading their country is nothing but an Islamofascist.

If we let them touch an F-35, they’ll have Russia and China closely examining it in short order.

Thank you for saying what I can't.

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2 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:

This about sums it up.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/nato-should-give-turkey-the-boot-1534201627


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Paywall block but yes show them the door.

No stealth for you...

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22859/no-stealth-for-you-trump-signs-defense-bill-that-blocks-transfer-of-f-35s-to-turkey

 

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Stupid pay walls, it let me read it from a link on Twitter.

By 
Bernard-Henri Lévy
Aug. 13, 2018 7:07 p.m. ET
 

U.S.-Turkish relations are mired in the worst crisis of their history. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is demanding that President Trump turn over Mr. Erdogan’s sworn enemy, Fethullah Gülen. Mr. Trump, meanwhile, seeks the release of the American pastor Andrew Brunson, who was imprisoned on the pretext that he had been involved in Turkey’s July 2016 coup attempt. The U.S. government has levied economic sanctions on two senior Turkish officials, akin to those imposed on Russian oligarchs after the seizure of Crimea. Turkey responded by freezing the plainly nonexistent Turkish assets of two Trump cabinet members. 

As tempers flare and accusations proliferate, it’s worth underscoring what is taking place: an unprecedented standoff between the presidents of two North Atlantic Treaty Organization member countries.

The two leaders—recognizing one’s America First and the other’s New Turkey as opposing faces of the same populism—may soon come off their testosterone high and stage-manage a spectacular reconciliation. Mr. Trump has shown himself capable of this with Kim Jong Un. Meanwhile, Mr. Erdogan, sensitive to his country’s currency woes and dependence on foreign investment, will be looking for a way to halt the escalation without losing face. The conflict nonetheless points to a deeper rift that is too serious to ignore.

As Western democracies worked to stop the spread of Islamist extremism in the Middle East, Turkey and its intelligence services engaged in a double game. Witness the government’s delivery of arms to groups affiliated with al Qaeda and later Islamic State in January 2014—several months before the latter’s pivotal siege of Kobani. 

 

Or consider the all-out offensive by Turkish planes and artillery against a Kurdish enclave in northeastern Syria earlier this year. Afrin, like the Manbij zone near Aleppo, was under Western protection. Yet the U.S. condoned the attack on its staunchest and most courageous allies in the region, even announcing the pullback of its own troops shortly after.

Between these two outrages, as if to highlight more clearly his neo-Ottoman ambitions, Mr. Erdogan posed with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani, and—in Ankara this April—with both! The trio met at a summit called to find a “solution” to the violence in Syria that they have fomented, spitting in the face of every friend of democracy and international law.

Mr. Erdogan’s relations with Mr. Putin are not limited to photo-ops. The sultan-in-the-making, who already had signed an agreement with the Kremlin to build massive nuclear power plants in Turkey, turned again to Moscow late last year for S-400 antiaircraft missiles that could pose compatibility problems with NATO weapons systems. Mr. Erdogan is going forward with the provocation even after the U.S. suggested it could jeopardize the Pentagon’s promised delivery of F-35 jet fighters.

At the 10th annual summit of the Brics nations, held in Johannesburg in late July, Mr. Erdogan was received as a guest of honor. There he very conspicuously raised the prospect of a strategic rapprochement with Xi Jinping’s China—and, once again, Mr. Putin’s Russia.

Mr. Erdogan’s ambition of resurrecting the ancient Turkic empire has snuffed out the secular, modern ideals of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Leaders of other illiberal states across Eurasia help him along, dreaming variously of reviving the caliphate; restoring the China of the Han, Ming, and Qing dynasties; re-creating a czarist empire; and bringing back the reign of the Achaemenid and Persian kings.

The U.S.-Turkish crisis is about much more than the egos of two phony tough guys. We must ask, calmly but unflinchingly, about the wisdom of our relations with an admittedly great country possessed of a great civilization that is no longer a friend or ally. Should the West continue to share military secrets on which our collective security depends with a capital that is forming strategic partnerships with the powers most hostile to us? 

in-art-close-icon-128x128-16481b937f87b244a645cdbef0d930f8.png
 
 
 

Mr. Trump said on July 11 that Mr. Erdogan “does things the right way.” The rest of us cannot say the same of a leader who increasingly opposes the West on virtually all of the issues on which liberal civilization depends. 

Not long ago Europeans were debating, prematurely, whether to admit Turkey to the European Union. Now the time has come for the West collectively to demand not simply the release of a hostage, but the expulsion of Turkey from NATO. 

 

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18 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:
18 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:

Stupid pay walls, it let me read it from a link on Twitter.

By 
Bernard-Henri Lévy
Aug. 13, 2018 7:07 p.m. ET
 

U.S.-Turkish relations are mired in the worst crisis of their history.

 Mr. Erdogan, sensitive to his country’s currency woes and dependence on foreign investment, will be looking for a way to halt the escalation without losing face.

 

IMHO, the situation/relationship was probably worse back when Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 and we had two NATO member countries fighting each other. I think this was the only time that NATO countries went to war with each other since NATO formed. Also, the Turks have played this Russian/USSR fear/game card before by shutting down some of our USSR monitoring sites in Turkey during the heyday of the Cold War. Here's just a few highlights from that timeframe;

- US reaction; After the hostilities of 1974, the United States applied an arms embargo on Turkey in 1975. The embargo on Turkey was lifted after 3 plus years by President Carter/Congress.

- Turkeys response to the US Arms Embargo; Turkey suspended the use of some Key US/NATO bases in Turkey. Turkey finally permitted the United States to reopen its four strategic intelligence installations for monitoring Soviet military activities that were shut down for over three years in retaliation for the U.S. arms embargo against Turkey. This only happened after the US Congress caved and repealed the ban on the sale of U.S. arms to Turkey.

Turkeys currencies woes (Turkish Lira); This is absolutely nothing new. The Turkish Lira (First Turkish Lira) had a history of sucking/devaluation. Anyone that was ever stationed in/deployed to Turkey in the 70's, 80's 90's, and early 2000's knows this firsthand. Heck, I even had a MSgt that worked for me at Incirlik (it was his second tour to Turkey) in the mid-1990's that would sometimes use Turkish Lira to wipe his ass (when he did this he would never flush so everyone could see his dasturdly deed). He was station at Incirlik the first time in the mid 1980's and he hoarded a bunch of Turkish Lira that he never unloaded. When he came back for his second tour in the mid 1990's he brought all his worthless Turkish Lira with him just to use as shit paper. 

- First Turkish Lira - US Dollar Valuations; The Guinness Book of Records ranked the Turkish lira as the world's least valuable currency in 1995 and 1996, and again from 1999 to 2004.

  • 1966 – 1 U.S. dollar = 9 Turkish lira
  • 1980 – 1 U.S. dollar = 90 Turkish lira
  • 1988 – 1 U.S. dollar = 1,300 Turkish lira
  • 1995 – 1 U.S. dollar = 45,000 Turkish lira
  • 2001 – 1 U.S. dollar = 1,650,000 Turkish lira     

- Second/New Turkish Lira - US Dollar Valuations (2005 to present); Basically in 2005 the USD to TRY was 1.35 after revaluation and today its about 6.5 to 7. 

 https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank-of-england-spot/historical-spot-exchange-rates/usd/USD-to-TRY

Edited by waveshaper
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