Guardian Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Has anyone seen the July 15 or so memo from NGB that states all pilots applying for ART / tech can be hired at GS13 even if they aren't IP's? It's true and works. I can attest. I had a buddy in California who told his state level that and they balked at him. So I passed on the memo and they quickly stuffed their collective foots in their mouths. It was sent out in summer 2015. And my buddies' state level hadn't heard about in in Jan 16. Glad I saved that email. I thought if they hadn't seen it maybe other units hadn't. I haven't looked at it lately but I don't think their is an expiration however it seemed like a retention thing which by definition means it will go away at some point. I went from being told I was going to have to be a GS12 step 1 to being hired as a GS13 step 7. My leadership had usually hired people at step 1 and I told them about the post I saw on base Ops about bargaining or showing comparison to be hired at a higher step. It's now helped myself and another in my unit get step 7. And guess what, with the price comparison, a GS 13 step 7 still takes home less than an active duty major AGR on the bonus. Thoughts? Anyone else not heard of this NGB memo? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 None of this applies to TRs, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Correct. TR's are not Techs. You make your money based on the type of days you are accomplishing. Techs / ARTs are Civil Servants and (usually dual status from my limited understanding) they get paid on the GS scales found on opm.gov Gearpig......downloaded. I'm not sure how that method of download works but I also hopefully properly attached the file to this post. PDR 15-1018 ANG Airplane Pilot Update.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 You bet. Hopefully some bros get some good from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 We've come full circle on this. Way back when I came off AD in 2006, my guard unit was hiring brand new 1Lt copilots as GS-13's. Sometime in the 2011-12 timeframe, some bean counter in HRO decided we couldn't do that anymore because they didn't fit the instructor pilot position description. We hired quite a few Co's and AC's at the GS-12 level who lost 10's of thousands of dollars. I believe all of us should be hired at the GS-13 level with varying steps depending on experience (CP/AC/IP/EP). My unit has never hired a new ART's at anything other than a step 1, but leadership has been reluctant to pull their heads of the sand when it comes to the ART life being less and less attractive to anyone with enough experience to go to a major airline. Don't even get me started with bonuses (or lack there of). Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 That's crap. Each employee has bargaining power. Plus it's not the leadership that signs off on it or has to pay for it. It's state. So what do they care other than they should be actively trying to get dudes a higher step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 You're preaching to the choir, but you have to understand that for years after 9/11 and during a stagnant airline industry when ART jobs were impossible to land, a culture developed where people waiting years to get an ART job weren't in a position to negotiate starting at anything other than a Step 1 without raising an eyebrow from folks who took the same job at Step 1 after being furloughed from their company. It is, however, a much different world now. This is not easy to implement because it could cause dissention anongst the troops. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Choir, I understand your point. However as a civil servant you have employee rights. It's not like in the military do this job or else. You have to be willing to walk away just like any negotiation. They are obviously desperate right now because of the existence of a memo and policy like this. I bet there is even something about being hired at a comparable wage in one of the TPMs or on opm.gov. I haven't read the thread on here in a while but I bet it has something to say about bargaining for your step increase being a right and completely legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Yes... it talks about all of this in the OPM. It even talks about 25% bonuses for hard to fill positions. NGB isn't increasing units Civ pay budgets for this though, so units must choose wisely about how they spend their excess civ pay. What I'm saying is that most of the guys I know who got hired as an ART in the past 3 or 4 years would have never gathered the testicular fortitude to negotiate for a higher salary after waiting in line for a permanent ART job for almost a decade (or more). Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Ah. I'm tracking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledy Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I had a bud show this to HR and they didn't bite off on it. Just to confirm you negotiated yourself to step 7 or is it implied somewhere in that memo? Any tips for a dude to do that successfully? I've never been an ART so I'm admittedly not too smart on it but would like to help the bros out. Thanks Sledy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 So there are two separate issues here. If they don't believe that memo then they have to take it up with NGB. It is official as it gets. All pilots to GS13. As far as the negotiations thing that is something I read about here on baseops and googled elsewhere. Every government employee on the GS scale before getting hired has the ability to negotiate their pay. Don't trust your HR office. In fact ask them to prove their point with regulations and policies. I bet they can't do it. They are usually a lot like bad recruiters who have no idea really what they are suppose to know. Research it online and on opm.gov and see the rights you have in getting hired. I don't know if someone who is already hired at GS12 or at a lower step has any rights like this. I am purely talking about new hires. Also this should be something between you and YOUR LEADERSHIP them your leadership is in the spot to request a higher rate/step. My leadership wrote a letter justifying the higher step and had an excel document showing how much less even a GS13 step 7 makes over the course of a comparable active duty major. PM me if you need more details. Or just ask here i guess and I will do what I can. Don't let the HR recruiters who likely don't know their own job tell you something that isn't true. I am a non instructor pilot major who got hired as a GS13 step 7 three weeks ago and not only is it legal it is the way it is suppose to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 So there are two separate issues here. If they don't believe that memo then they have to take it up with NGB. It is official as it gets. All pilots to GS13. As far as the negotiations thing that is something I read about here on baseops and googled elsewhere. Every government employee on the GS scale before getting hired has the ability to negotiate their pay. Don't trust your HR office. In fact ask them to prove their point with regulations and policies. I bet they can't do it. They are usually a lot like bad recruiters who have no idea really what they are suppose to know. Research it online and on opm.gov and see the rights you have in getting hired. I don't know if someone who is already hired at GS12 or at a lower step has any rights like this. I am purely talking about new hires. Also this should be something between you and YOUR LEADERSHIP them your leadership is in the spot to request a higher rate/step. My leadership wrote a letter justifying the higher step and had an excel document showing how much less even a GS13 step 7 makes over the course of a comparable active duty major. PM me if you need more details. Or just ask here i guess and I will do what I can. Don't let the HR recruiters who likely don't know their own job tell you something that isn't true. I am a non instructor pilot major who got hired as a GS13 step 7 three weeks ago and not only is it legal it is the way it is suppose to be done. Yes, it is perfectly legal, but it seems HR personnel (who've I've always known to mostly be absolutely worthless when it comes to knowing their jobs) are more prone to say "no" than find the correct answer. My OG told me he was told no by HR the last time he tried to do this. OPM says you can hire at a higher step for "superior qualifications" or "special needs" positions. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-administration/fact-sheets/superior-qualifications-and-special-needs-pay-setting-authority/ This should be an NGB level issue and it is up to them to pry their heads out of their rectums when it comes to pilot ART recruiting/retention. They're about 5 yrs too late. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Share Posted February 29, 2016 Why is it that some leadership refuse to at least try for the sakes of the people they are hiring? Are not pilots special needs and having superior qualifications? It's not like the money is coming out of the wing or OG's pocket. What does it matter to them? Or am I completely missing the boat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 What blows my mind from the outsider perspective is bros at one base getting hired 13 step 5 + bonus and bros at another base getting hired at step 1 "no chance in hell!" on the bonus. They're the same qualification/experience level of dude (one base does the superior qual thing, the other doesn't/rarely does), but with significant pay differences in the SAME system (AFRC, so not a state thing). No wonder all my friends in the second group are madly looking for a way out of ART and into airlines, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImNotARobot Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, Guardian said: Are not pilots special needs and having superior qualifications? Hell yes to both. But mostly the former. I have a family member who is a high level HR executive in the private sector. Over the years, I’ve learned that outside of government jobs, the pay disparity between positions can be extreme, with employees earning more than their bosses in some cases. It all comes down to the “pay band” concept. The HR department boils your resume/qualifications into a salary range, and then your negotiation skills after being hired determines where your eventual salary will land within that pay band. So at some companies, salary numbers are tightly held to prevent discontent in the ranks. But at a government job, my experience is everyone expects we’re all paid the same based upon our rank or GS level (and if you’ve put in the time for GS steps, you have those appropriate pay raises). So if everyone before the newest hire had fought for a higher step as the link above suggests "Agencies also may want to ensure that pay-setting determinations are consistent with how pay has been set for similarly qualified candidates in similar positions.”, then it would be no problem. But when the older head ARTs see some new whipper snapper gets hired above Step 1, wouldn’t that breed discontent? It’s shitty to think that way, because all it would take is one bold negotiation, then everyone after that would expect that same standard. But since the link above specifically states the negotiation is only for new hires, it would never be retroactive for the older guys. I don’t think that’s a reason not to negotiate, as Guardian has done, but if the older ARTs are already looking toward the airlines, I wonder what the effect would be for the unit. Anybody have experience with that scenario? Edited February 29, 2016 by ImNotARobot added coherent thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I think you should lose steps beyond age 50 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Share Posted February 29, 2016 Your mom hasn't lost a step and she's over 50. Boom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 There is never going to be a good time to start hiring new "whipper snappers" at higher steps. Dissention is bound to happen, but I think it can be avoided with various tactics and the egos need to be put aside. Desperate times call for desperate measures. There aren't a whole lot of old heads left and the ones that are left are the ones who, for one reason or another, decided to stay in the ART program until the "bitter" end. They're not the ones leaving. It's senior captains thru young Lt Col's leaving because if you're in that generation, there is no bad time to leave the ART program. It's not like an AGR walking out the door at 15 yrs. These are the guys running shops. These are the line IP's and EP's doing the majority of your training and checkrides. You can't replace these people with 1Lt's out of UPT. You need these people to stay. NGB/AFRC should have a standarized recruiting and retention program for pilot ART's. You could use higher steps for new hires and retention bonuses for older ART's who didn't get lucky enough to be hired higher than a Step 1 (mirror the AGR ACP program). Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 That makes way too much sense. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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