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Warrior    138
Don't hate the player, hate the game. 

This. I have no problem with people playing the game within the rules regardless of how retarded the rules are

Does the VA system need to be reformed? Absolutely. But you're barking up the wrong tree if you think we need to "take one for the team"

When Uncle Sam is offering up the bennies.

Anyone else see the irony in how ed up the VA system is when to my knowledge it's currently the only Government run healthcare system? I can't wait until every hospital system is this dysfunctional under obamacare.

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RTB    220

Don't hate the player, hate the game. 

This. I have no problem with people playing the game within the rules regardless of how retarded the rules are

Does the VA system need to be reformed? Absolutely. But you're barking up the wrong tree if you think we need to "take one for the team"

When Uncle Sam is offering up the bennies.

Exactly.

Edited by RTB
Quote buffoonery

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RTB    220

"A man who is good enough to shed blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards" - Theodore Roosevelt

or another famous quote:

"Not using benefits that you've earned and are entitled to is crazy"- RTB

 

Edited by RTB

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Robo    5
Robo, The two processes are similar, yet very different from what I've been told.  I would not check any box without consulting with an attorney.  From what I remember, there are lawyers that are paid by the VA (not you) to get you through the MEB process.  It may have changed, but I'm not sure.  Good luck.  

Thanks. I spoke with my VA rep before completing the paperwork and both him and my PEBLO said don't check that box. Everything is supposed to be more clear once the ratings come back and we can see what the pay outs could be. It wouldn't be so confusing if not for the double negative.

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yatalpan    13

 

 

This. I have no problem with people playing the game within the rules regardless of how retarded the rules are

 

Does the VA system need to be reformed? Absolutely. But you're barking up the wrong tree if you think we need to "take one for the team"

When Uncle Sam is offering up the bennies.

 

Anyone else see the irony in how ed up the VA system is when to my knowledge it's currently the only Government run healthcare system? I can't wait until every hospital system is this dysfunctional under obamacare.

The VA is not the only gov run healthcare system in the USA.  The Indian Health Service and the Military Health System are federal systems.  However, I get your point.

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Robo    5
Agreed, reform is definitely needed.  The sleep apnea 50% thing is pretty ridiculous.  

50% is the magic number to receive concurrent payments from both the VA and a military retirement. Anything under 50% both sides pay but the amount paid by the VA (tax free) is subtracted from the retirement.

No doubt there are improvements to be made to the system and some level of fraud is likely to occur. Maybe the cost of catching everything means that some things slip through. Once I'm through the process and see how the exams turn into ratings I'll have a more informed opinion or I may be just as clueless as I am now. Either way, I'm being examined for all the conditions that I feel are service related and I'll let them approve or deny.

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HU&W    603

You dismissed an article published in a peer reviewed professional journal written by a psychologist experienced in dealing with VA claims as speculative? That's convenient.

When their references, specifically regarding the quote you pushed, include the LA Times?  Absolutely.  Am I saying that all VA claims are valid?  Of course not.  People will always work the "system".  Some will even defraud it.  But if military service causes lasting permanent injury to a person that would not have been incurred outside of that service, I do believe that warrants a claim of disability.  Especially when that claim is completely in accordance with our laws.  

 

It's great that you want to sacrifice your service related disabilities for what you believe to be the greater good.  Honestly, no sarcasm, I really respect you for that.  But I just can't fault the person who destroys their knee in a forced ruck, loses a partial spectrum of their hearing to a rapid-d, or partially loses one of their primary senses to a deployment related botched medical procedure (personal knowledge of all three) for wanting to follow the law and claiming a partial disability when they truly are physically worse as a result of military service.

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Fud    64

“Knowing what's right doesn't mean much unless you do what's right.” - Theodore Roosevelt

I'm always surprised at how polarizing this subject can be, but I understand what you are trying to say.  A lot of people complain about sleep apnea being at 50%, but never look at the reasoning behind why it is rated so highly.  If one cannot get adequate sleep because they cannot breathe, then it causes numerous health problems down the line (high blood pressure, weight gain, etc...).  The VA is taking measures to combat people defrauding the government by equipping patients with CPAP devices with memory cards.  I have no doubt, and have no problem with people being audited on a frequent basis for the rest of their lives if they are not actually using the machine. 

As far as the VASRD being revamped, I'm not sure if it needs to be done, but have no problem if the percentages change in some instances.  However, there will always be people who complain that percentages are too high, and that others are gaming the system.  I liken this argument to people complaining about professional athlete's salaries or those of a CEO of a major company.  What should the amount be, and what amount will stop you from complaining?  Even if the VASRD is changed, my understanding is that Veterans with a VA rating are exempt from their percentage changing. 

On a personal note, the VA healthcare I was provided literally saved my life.  I was unemployed for 6+ months and my medications were, and still will be provided by the VA for the rest of my life.  I'm thankful that the government offers this to people with service connected disabilities and will never complain about the process that others choose to go through if it is lawful, and they follow the rules.

 

Thanks. I spoke with my VA rep before completing the paperwork and both him and my PEBLO said don't check that box. Everything is supposed to be more clear once the ratings come back and we can see what the pay outs could be. It wouldn't be so confusing if not for the double negative.

There is a similar box one can check when filing their VA claim to let the VA decide the claim based on what you've submitted so far.  My DAV rep did not recommend that option at all.  I asked so many questions during the process, but am inquisitive like that. 

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HercDude    222

 But I just can't fault the person who destroys their knee in a forced ruck, loses a partial spectrum of their hearing to a rapid-d, or partially loses one of their primary senses to a deployment related botched medical procedure (personal knowledge of all three) for wanting to follow the law and claiming a partial disability when they truly are physically worse as a result of military service.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you there.  But when we have guys getting a 50% rating for Irritable Bowel Syndrome supposedly acquired from the AOR chow halls, or PTSD from seeing coffins in the back of an airplane (personal knowledge of both), I don't have a problem judging some people as frauds.  If you are in worse shape when you get out than when you got in, as a result of your service, than by all means you are entitled to and should make a claim.  But if you are in worse shape because you eat like shit and don't exercise, or you were a train wreck to begin with, don't stick it to the Amrican taxpayer because it's an easy buck.  Those people piss me off.

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Mark1    88

I know a lot of guys receiving disability payments...not a single one of them is in a position where they would do a specific job to support themselves or their family if they could, but can't because their 'disability' prevents it.  Of course those people exist, but they aren't even close to the majority of people receiving benefits, and it's sickening.

My TAPS class was worthless in every regard, except one.  It served as a fairly comprehensive guide on how to exploit the VA disability system for personal gain.  It bordered on a class about how to defraud to program.  It was disgusting to see people who were nodding off in the middle of the class perk up and start asking questions when it came to how to ensure a monthly payment from the government in return for nothing.

I have neck, back, knee, and hearing issues...all of which developed while I was on active duty.  The VA considers them service connected, and for all I know my time on a constantly vibrating platform with 8lbs of gear on my head under 'high' G's didn't help.  But you know what?  I was a decade older when I separated.  Getting old sucks.  Your body starts falling apart whether you're in the military or not.  Just because it fell apart while I was on active duty doesn't mean my job led to the problems.  I wake up every morning, dress myself, and go to work.  Even if it involves some pain, I don't want a government handout that could otherwise go to a guy who took a face full of shrapnel, lost a limb, and is legitimately excluded from performing many jobs that he might otherwise hold if healthy.

It always blew my mind listening to retired guys bitching about how their disability check was late again while they piloted a commercial aircraft making $200k a year, and in their previous breath were complaining about the entitlement generation and Obama phones.  

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Flaco    94

I know a lot of guys receiving disability payments...not a single one of them is in a position where they would do a specific job to support themselves or their family if they could, but can't because their 'disability' prevents it.  Of course those people exist, but they aren't even close to the majority of people receiving benefits, and it's sickening.

My TAPS class was worthless in every regard, except one.  It served as a fairly comprehensive guide on how to exploit the VA disability system for personal gain.  It bordered on a class about how to defraud to program.  It was disgusting to see people who were nodding off in the middle of the class perk up and start asking questions when it came to how to ensure a monthly payment from the government in return for nothing.

I have neck, back, knee, and hearing issues...all of which developed while I was on active duty.  The VA considers them service connected, and for all I know my time on a constantly vibrating platform with 8lbs of gear on my head under 'high' G's didn't help.  But you know what?  I was a decade older when I separated.  Getting old sucks.  Your body starts falling apart whether you're in the military or not.  Just because it fell apart while I was on active duty doesn't mean my job led to the problems.  I wake up every morning, dress myself, and go to work.  Even if it involves some pain, I don't want a government handout that could otherwise go to a guy who took a face full of shrapnel, lost a limb, and is legitimately excluded from performing many jobs that he might otherwise hold if healthy.

It always blew my mind listening to retired guys bitching about how their disability check was late again while they piloted a commercial aircraft making $200k a year, and in their previous breath were complaining about the entitlement generation and Obama phones.  

Shack brother.

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Beaver    208

Shack brother.

Unscorable at 6.

It's earned compensation, not an entitlement. If my back and neck are going to hurt for the rest of my life then I expect to be compensated by my employer whether I'm able to hold a different job or not.  Just like the GI Bill and the retirement pension, it was part of the deal when I signed up. 

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Mark1    88

Unscorable at 6.

It's earned compensation, not an entitlement. If my back and neck are going to hurt for the rest of my life then I expect to be compensated by my employer whether I'm able to hold a different job or not.  Just like the GI Bill and the retirement pension, it was part of the deal when I signed up. 

Predictable response.  You earned it...everybody else is just a freeloader.  And of course everybody else thinks similarly with regard to themselves.  

I know a guy who will get a check from the government for the rest of his life because he snagged a ski on a tree root while on vacation and it tore his leg to pieces.  I know of another who injured himself playing a pickup game of basketball at the base gym (comedically enough, he was skipping out on work to play).  And then there's every other guy who avoided the base clinic like the plague until 6 months before their final out date when, based on their medical records, you'd think they'd come down with some sort of degenerative terminal disease (which then miraculously disappeared when they needed to go out and find employment).

That reminds me of another guy who thought he was done with government work when he left and pushed the VA hard to earn himself a ~40% rating.  8 months later he was trying to get on with a Guard unit who wouldn't take him because he was disabled.  He was able to reverse engineer that issue, pass his physicals, and is serving in a Guard position that is more physically demanding than 99% of all Air Force positions.  Had he not had the desire to return, he'd still be collecting.  What are the odds that his ailments will return when he leaves the Guard?

None of these are the reason for the existence of the VA healthcare system, but they are by far the overwhelming majority of claims.  Monthly disability payments exist explicitly to replace income potential lost due to debilitating conditions developed as a direct result of military service...not to compensate people who have lower back pain because, ya know, 40yr old+ people tend to have aches and pains.

If the 95% of people living normal lives while receiving VA disability gave up the entitlement, the guy who had his legs blown off in combat could get 50 times better care and not have to wait in a 9 month backlog of people making frivolous claims to start receiving benefits.

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Herk Driver    218

Words

Sounds to me like your beef is really with a system that rewards this behavior. Hate the game, not the player.

Until then, continue to rage against the machine.

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Beaver    208

So you're saying that since you know some people abusing the system then 95% of people are also abusing the system? And that instead of improving the quality of the VA so it can provide the service that the government promised we should just limit it to people who have had their legs blown off?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

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guineapigfury    698

If the 95% of people living normal lives while receiving VA disability gave up the entitlement, the guy who had his legs blown off in combat could get 50 times better care and not have to wait in a 9 month backlog of people making frivolous claims to start receiving benefits.

This would be true if you were the one deciding how to spend the money.  However, Congress decides how to spend the "extra" money in your scenario.  They'd notice that the VA had extra cash after the end of the first year, adjust the VA's budget down and spend the windfall on highway maintenance. 

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Flaco    94

Enormous entitlement programs also became the norm in old Rome. At its height, the largest state expenditure was an army of 300,000–600,000 legionaries. The soldiers realized their role and necessity in Roman politics, and consequently their demands increased. They required exorbitant retirement packages in the form of free tracts of farmland or large bonuses of gold equal to more than a decade’s worth of their salary. They also expected enormous and periodic bonuses in order to prevent uprisings.

The Roman experience teaches important lessons. As the 20th-century economist Howard Kershner put it, “When a self-governing people confer upon their government the power to take from some and give to others, the process will not stop until the last bone of the last taxpayer is picked bare.” Putting one’s livelihood in the hands of vote-buying politicians compromises not just one’s personal independence, but the financial integrity of society as well. The welfare state, once begun, is difficult to reverse and never ends well.

Rome fell to invaders in 476 AD, but who the real barbarians were is an open question. The Roman people who supported the welfare state and the politicians who administered it so weakened society that the Western Roman Empire fell like a ripe plum that year. Maybe the real barbarians were those Romans who had effectively committed a slow-motion financial suicide.

http://fee.org/freeman/the-slow-motion-financial-suicide-of-the-roman-empire/

Whether we (servicemen and women) will take part in the collapse of the treasury is a choice. But if you choose to watch Rome burn, please don't use the excuse that you are just "playing the game." That is beneath us.

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Mark1    88

Sounds to me like your beef is really with a system that rewards this behavior. Hate the game, not the player.

Until then, continue to rage against the machine.

I'm quite capable of hating both at the same time, and they're both worthy of it.  If you think there's nothing to dislike about a person who feels that because they once held a position where they ostensibly served the citizens best interest, they're now entitled to now defraud the citizens, then I guess there's not much point in discussing the issue.

Me?  I'll maintain my stance that a person who collects a disability check for non-service related injuries (that are officially considered service connected just because they occurred while on active duty), then turns the disability off when it serves his best interest in order to do an able-bodied job, and who will undoubtedly be disabled once again when he separates, is worth looking down upon.  Apparently I'm in the minority.

No wonder this country is going down the shitter.  As long as I get mine...fuck everybody else.

And I take this to mean that you have no disdain for the stereotypical welfare recipient who isn't seeking employment, is standing in line for their food stamps and Obama phone this morning and going to the free clinic later today to pop out their 14th kid from their 9th baby-daddy that gets so much play on this forum..because, hey, they're just using the system to its fullest.  Hate the system, love the player.    

So you're saying that since you know some people abusing the system then 95% of people are also abusing the system? And that instead of improving the quality of the VA so it can provide the service that the government promised we should just limit it to people who have had their legs blown off?

That's the gist of it.  If I had my way it'd be:

Legs blown off - 100%

All else - 0%

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Herk Driver    218
I'm quite capable of hating both at the same time, and they're both worthy of it.  If you think there's nothing to dislike about a person who feels that because they once held a position where they ostensibly served the citizens best interest, they're now entitled to now defraud the citizens, then I guess there's not much point in discussing the issue.

Me?  I'll maintain my stance that a person who collects a disability check for non-service related injuries (that are officially considered service connected just because they occurred while on active duty), then turns the disability off when it serves his best interest in order to do an able-bodied job, and who will undoubtedly be disabled once again when he separates, is worth looking down upon.  Apparently I'm in the minority.

No wonder this country is going down the shitter.  As long as I get mine...fuck everybody else.

And I take this to mean that you have no disdain for the stereotypical welfare recipient who isn't seeking employment, is standing in line for their food stamps and Obama phone this morning and going to the free clinic later today to pop out their 14th kid from their 9th baby-daddy that gets so much play on this forum..because, hey, they're just using the system to its fullest.  Hate the system, love the player.    

That's the gist of it.  If I had my way it'd be:

Legs blown off - 100%

All else - 0%

And while my post was quite flippant, your position is incredibly naive. To say that only someone who lost limbs is deserving of a disability rating is incredibly insulting. There are plenty of people out there that haven't lost a limb but have severe disabilities and need every bit of help that they can get.

So, while I will refrain from putting words in your mouth, unlike what you chose to do, think about your position the next time you see some one with TBI that is missing half their skull. I will assume that you do not know someone personally that is truly affected by a disability worthy of a rating.

Until then continue to talk in absolutes and pontificate from your soapbox.

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Mark1    88

Legs blown off - 100%

All else - 0%

So, while I will refrain from putting words in your mouth, unlike what you chose to do, think about your position the next time you see some one with TBI that is missing half their skull. I will assume that you do not know someone personally that is truly affected by a disability worthy of a rating.

Until then continue to talk in absolutes and pontificate from your soapbox.

Good news for you, I heard that a totally FUBAR sarcasm detector is worth 30%.

 

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RogAir    7

Just got my report back after applying for VA disability. I filed 9 items (20+ years service).  All items "rejected"; some even cited as "didn't happen" while clearly shown in medical records.  Has anyone else received this type of rejection?  Everyone I've talked to has gotten at least a 0% rating, most get 10-30%. Not looking for a check, just want a 0% rating...

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