Maj Gen Keltz fired

[di1630]

I'd like to know the story behind the incident. Anyone from Laughlin have the DL?

[Azimuth]

I'd like to know the story behind the incident. Anyone from Laughlin have the DL?

As a prior AETC instructor, and from what I've seen in that MAJCOM, I'm going to guess having an unprofessional relationship with a student which would be Art 92 (Failure to follow a lawful order) and Art 133 (Conduct Unbecoming an Officer).

[Dupe]

Except for the fact that by this point the accused has already elected to accept the Article 15 process. Then the accused also asked to make a presentation and that it be made public. Those decisions then get us to this point...

Back to you regular sport bitching.

Not that I would in this case, but isn't there a path for the defendant to remove his consent to the Article 15 process?

[Herk Driver]

Not that I would in this case, but isn't there a path for the defendant to remove his consent to the Article 15 process?

I am not sure that his decision is irrevocable, but I would bet that the accused and his ADC would be unwilling to roll the dice on the possible consequences. A 15 for an officer is typically limited to half a months pay x2. A federal conviction and much harsher potential penalties are a steep difference. JAGs typically do not support a 15 when they cannot make the case in court.

Can you explain how you think this amounts to UCI?

[Dupe]

I am not sure that his decision is irrevocable, but I would bet that the accused and his ADC would be unwilling to roll the dice on the possible consequences. A 15 for an officer is typically limited to half a months pay x2. A federal conviction and much harsher potential penalties are a steep difference. JAGs typically do not support a 15 when they cannot make the case in court.

I agree... sticking with the Article 15 is probably best as its consequences are limited.

Can you explain how you think this amounts to UCI?

Fair warning up front: this gets quickly to arm-chair lawyering, and I'm not a lawyer.

This isn't UCI as there isn't a court martial, so there is nothing for the commander to influence. That said, here's the definition of UCI:

No authority convening a general, special, or summary court-martial, nor any other commanding officer, may censure, reprimand, or admonish the court or any member, military judge, or counsel thereof, with respect to the findings or sentence adjudged by the court, or with respect to any other exercises of its or his functions in the conduct of the proceedings. No person subject to this chapter may attempt to coerce or, by any unauthorized means, influence the action of a court-martial or any other military tribunal or any member thereof, in reaching the findings or sentence in any case, or the action of any convening, approving, or reviewing authority with respect to his judicial acts.

By making his statements, Maj Gen Keltz could be seen as influencing every single member of the 19AF into believing that the accused is guilty. The defense would argue that this is "influence to reaching the findings of the case." If the defendent choses to take this to trial (not very likely), a UCI petition would be the first one filed from the defense.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Dupe

[sputnik]

By making his statements, Maj Gen Keltz could be seen as influencing every single member of the 19AF into believing that the accused is guilty. The defense would argue that this is "influence to reaching the findings of the case." If the defendent choses to take this to trial (not very likely), a UCI petition would be the first one filed from the defense.

Couldn't the prosecutor counter by saying "and then he got fired for it?" Proving it wasn't appropriate?

[Dupe]

Couldn't the prosecutor counter by saying "and then he got fired for it?" Proving it wasn't appropriate?

Perhaps. We'll never know. Military law is interesting in that there just isn't much case law behind it. Based on how legal assignments work, there aren't that many experts in the field either.

[Herk Driver]

Perhaps. We'll never know. Military law is interesting in that there just isn't much case law behind it. Based on how legal assignments work, there aren't that many experts in the field either.

I think what you will find is that once the Gen is removed from the chain of command that his potential "influence" is eliminated. Thus the reason that a GO from outside 19AF is now going to listen to the arguments and make the decision in this case. It preserves the MAJCOM CC ability to act impartially in the future as well.

[Dupe]

I think what you will find is that once the Gen is removed from the chain of command that his potential "influence" is eliminated. Thus the reason that a GO from outside 19AF is now going to listen to the arguments and make the decision in this case. It preserves the MAJCOM CC ability to act impartially in the future as well.

The defense would argue that the influence already happened and the publicity behind it all continues to influence any potential panel member. I looked ...I didn't find anything (granted...I'm an armchair lawyer here). There's no case law that I could find that answers "Is the influence removed if the commander is?"

[Herk Driver]

The defense would argue that the influence already happened and the publicity behind it all continues to influence any potential panel member. I looked ...I didn't find anything (granted...I'm an armchair lawyer here). There's no case law that I could find that answers "Is the influence removed if the commander is?"

By your quoted info above, he is no longer a convening authority or Commander and in a short amount of time, the "offender" would no longer be subject to the UCMJ and therefore this would not be applicable.

[Fud]

According to the Air Force Times, he said during the Article 15 proceeding that the accused was "Drunker than 10,000 Indians" and was said to be racially charged. I laughed when I read this, but in this day and age nobody can say anything.

[Craftsman]

Wtf! The navajo's are finally getting their day after all these years, that it is because of them that we won WW2!

[HerkFE]

According to the Air Force Times, he said during the Article 15 proceeding that the accused was "Drunker than 10,000 Indians" and was said to be racially charged. I laughed when I read this, but in this day and age nobody can say anything.

I read the article too. Is this REALLY all there is to his firing? One part of me says "There has to be more to this" but the other part me CAN believe it as thin skinned and pussified as we have gotten as a military and as a society. If this is really the only reason we fired an otherwise exemplary general (and I don't know him other than having been at Salem when he was the boss) then dear God, we are truly screwed.

[Azimuth]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/05/12/laughlin-captain-accused-of-adultery-fraternization/70943290/

[Beaver]

I read the article too. Is this REALLY all there is to his firing? One part of me says "There has to be more to this" but the other part me CAN believe it as thin skinned and pussified as we have gotten as a military and as a society. If this is really the only reason we fired an otherwise exemplary general (and I don't know him other than having been at Salem when he was the boss) then dear God, we are truly screwed.

Well, if you're handing out Art 15s for naughty text messages between consenting adults then maybe you shouldn't use racial stereotypes in a public forum.

[the g-man]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/05/12/laughlin-captain-accused-of-adultery-fraternization/70943290/

This is not the same guy as the Gen Keltz dude.

[HerkFE]

Well, if you're handing out Art 15s for naughty text messages between consenting adults then maybe you shouldn't use racial stereotypes in a public forum.

I guess that is what I was getting at. There is always more to the story. Since I'm an O.R.F. now, I don't get to hear some of the behind the scenes stuff.