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Clark Griswold

Trends in Air to Air Combat

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For the gun argument, I think it makes sense to hope for the best and train for the worst.  Ideally, I'll have wall to wall 120's with a Pk of 2.0 because I shoot them in fingertip from their formation takeoff.  But when I can never get a lock because he's jammed my radar so bad my MFD says "FCR OFF" and my 9x misses (0 for 1 right now), I'd like to have a weapon that won't decoy or get jammed.

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1 hour ago, Lawman said:

With all the new wizzbang actually usable tech from 1960s concepts like laser...

How good would these systems have to get before the emphasis on building block ways you guys train on the idea of being able to also reach for the contingent circumstances changed. Every time I see the conversation about the gun in ATA with 35 it’s never really about “when we run out of Missiles” that starts the argument but instead “we forgot it in Vietnam with the F4 and it was terrible.” Is anybody really gonna pretend that the tech of the 60s and the tech of today aren’t light years apart in expected performance? I see the possibility of some ideas like DE based defensive/offensive systems as very quite possibly being the magic auto-kill/auto-defeat god mode in the game we have always dreamed of. Like if tomorrow somebody put a forcefield on the jet that could just absorb a flying telephone pole of death that will absolutely kill you without it... how much time and money would you spend on the contingencies to that system.

I’m not gonna speak to the idea “you need to do____” for ATA, I’m just curious what point do you think the hold for old cultural norms would still be overriding reality of what you have.

Watching the tech fight the culture has been interesting the last couple years with the rotary wing world in the IR MANPADS game. I can only imagine the same fights are existing in other communities.

When it is more profitable to advocate buying / building for the future versus selling us the best technology to win yesterday's war.  We keep looking back and getting ready for round 2, equipping / training for previous wars so we can fight them even better.

Good idea except our adversaries watch and learn from our fights and will not fight us that way as they see what happens when you do that.

http://publications.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/2163.pdf 

My hope is that a generation used to technology shifting constantly and needing replacement / update every 3-5 years will shift away from huge, once in a generation procurements and organizational restructuring will be way less verboten when they come to leadership.

Edited by Clark Griswold

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Saw a new Raytheon Trophy F-15 video. Question: what is the “real” criteria for winning the Trophy? Ie the metrics they use.

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Which airframes are in the running? USAF only? Given a super hornet got the first “actual” a/a shot in about 20 years and 16/15e’s were actually tasked with DCA, genuinely curious the metrics.

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Couple years ago they changed the Raytheon Trophy from the "Best A/A squadron in the USAF" to the "Best Fighter Squadron in the USAF."  One of the LN Mudhen squadrons won it this year.

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The U.K.-headquartered firm will lead “Team Tempest,” which also includes engine-maker Rolls-Royce, Italian defense contractor Leonardo, and the European missile consortium MBDA.....

Because we learned F@ck-all from Tornado, Typhoon, Eurocopter Tiger....

Jesus guys. You were the only country with a legitimate chance at getting Raptor and that got jacked up for Typhoon... now they want to repeat history when we will sell literally anybody not Russia/China F-35s to get the per unit cost down and even let them build their own.

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Because we learned F@ck-all from Tornado, Typhoon, Eurocopter Tiger....

Jesus guys. You were the only country with a legitimate chance at getting Raptor and that got jacked up for Typhoon...


So so sooooo true.

Stay away from anything European.

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3 hours ago, YoungnDumb said:

Does that include the beer and the women?

Contrary to popular belief, stupid questions do exist. 

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Contrary to popular belief, stupid questions do exist. 


Just remember with the Eastern Europeans, it’s not genetics but poverty that keeps them that skinny.


Also Germany is the ugly friend of most of Europe.
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The U.K.-headquartered firm will lead “Team Tempest,” which also includes engine-maker Rolls-Royce, Italian defense contractor Leonardo, and the European missile consortium MBDA.....

Because we learned F@ck-all from Tornado, Typhoon, Eurocopter Tiger....

Jesus guys. You were the only country with a legitimate chance at getting Raptor and that got jacked up for Typhoon... now they want to repeat history when we will sell literally anybody not Russia/China F-35s to get the per unit cost down and even let them build their own.


Yup

The French have an economy slightly smaller than the Brits and managed to build their own 4+ fighter for their AF / Naval Air to meet their requirements - just takes the will to go your own way and keep it real.

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9 hours ago, brabus said:

Contrary to popular belief, stupid questions do exist. 

Check my username, very aware of such.  It was asked sarcastically/in a vain attempt to interject some humor.

 

8 hours ago, Lawman said:

Just remember with the Eastern Europeans, it’s not genetics but poverty that keeps them that skinny.

 

In my case, beggars can't really be choosers, I'll take what I can get.

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Check my username, very aware of such.  It was asked sarcastically/in a vain attempt to interject some humor.

I know, I was also being sarcastic and making joke. 

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Yup

The French have an economy slightly smaller than the Brits and managed to build their own 4+ fighter for their AF / Naval Air to meet their requirements - just takes the will to go your own way and keep it real.


Good point. French were smart on that one. The Raphael is much better than the Eurofighter.

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35 minutes ago, di1630 said:


Good point. French were smart on that one. The Raphael is much better than the Eurofighter.

Raphael:

Raphael_(Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Tutles).jpg.db8263c145c72e786504e33a5a9430ea.jpg

Rafale:

300px-Rafale_-_RIAT_2009_(3751416421).jpg.abe6341a597300a39f7f84993c0ee061.jpg

Subtle distinction, but different.

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Subtle distinction, but different.

Thanks.

I still pronounce the p in Gripen when I talk to my Saab pilot friends as well.

Rafale = gust of wind so I think I’ll just call it the “gust” and see if it catches on during the next LFE.

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7 hours ago, di1630 said:


Good point. French were smart on that one. The Raphael is much better than the Eurofighter.

It's like the tree falling in the forest.  If the Europeans make a good fighter does anyone care?

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It's like the tree falling in the forest.  If the Europeans make a good fighter does anyone care?


Well the Saudi’s will... only because the treat equipping an Air Force the same way they treat filling their garages. Buy every flavor of super cars they can’t drive/maintain and then throw oil money and Phil labor at the problems afterward...

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The X is for EXTREME!!!

 

https://www.defenseone.com/business/2018/07/boeing-pitching-new-f-15-using-its-super-hornet-game-plan/149839/

Boeing is quietly pitching the U.S. Air Force a new F-15 fighter jet using the same business strategy that convinced the Trump administration to buy more Super Hornet warplanes for the Navy.

Dubbed the F-15X, the new variant of the venerable jet offers more modern flight controls, cockpit displays, and radar, according to military and industry sources with knowledge of the plan. The plane would also pack a lot of firepower, carrying more than two dozen air-to-air missiles, the most of any U.S. Air Force aircraft.

Boeing officials declined to explicitly confirm their efforts to sell the F-15X, except perhaps obliquely:

“We see the marketplace expanding internationally and it’s creating opportunities then to go back and talk to the U.S. Air Force about what might be future upgrades or even potentially future acquisitions of the F-15 aircraft,” Gene Cunningham, vice president of global sales of Defense, Space & Security, said Friday at the Royal International Air Tattoo in England.

The Air Force has not purchased new F-15s since placing a 2001 order for five F-15E Strike Eagles, a two-seat version that can bomb ground targets and shoot down other aircraft. The original F-15 first flew in 1972, and many of the Air Force’s current air-to-air Eagles entered service in the 1980s. Many of them are older than the pilots who fly them.

Unlike its successful Super Hornet pitch to the Trump administration last year, the F-15 pitch has not made its way to White House, according to sources with knowledge of the project. When Trump visited a Boeing commercial factory in South Carolina in February 2017, reporters traveling with the President spotted then-Chief of Staff Reince Priebus with a Boeing white paper that compared an advanced version of the Super Hornetto the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter made by rival Lockheed Martin.

Air Force leaders say they are currently evaluating their mix of aircraft.

“We have a new National Defense Strategy and the Air Force is working through the process of determining what Air Force is needed to meet that new National Defense Strategy and how do you represent that to the world, Gen. James “Mike” Holmes, the head of Air Combat Command, said June 28 at a Defense Writers Group breakfast in Washington.

Among the options being considered are new versions of F-15s and F-16s, according to one Air Force observer.

American allies Israel, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, and South Korea fly tailored versions of the F-15. The newest member of the Eagle club is Qatar, which ordered 36 aircraft last year and has an option for 36 more. Boeing is also pitching the F-15 to Germany, which wants to replace its Tornado jets.

Boeing’s Cunningham, said the firm is also offering upgrades to existing F-15s with technology used in the newer ally aircraft.

The F-15 is considered a fourth-generation plane, one that does not have a stealth design, which helps it evade enemy missiles. For more than a decade, Air Force leaders have long pressed for buying only stealthy fighter and bomber aircraft. Buying new F-15s would reverse that.

“This is the most traction I’ve ever seen legacy four [generation aircraft] get in the Air Force,” the Air Force observer said.

The F-15 was supposed to be replaced the by the stealthy F-22 Raptor — considered the top air-to-air combat fighter. Despite objections from top Air Force generals, then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates ordered an end to F-22 production in 2009. The final jet came off of Lockheed Martin’s Marietta, Georgia, production line in 2012. In all, the Air Force purchased 187 Raptors, far less than the more than 750 originally planned.

At the time, Gates opted to invest in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, a multi-role fighter, which can shoot down planes and attack targets on the ground with its array of advanced sensors, radar and sensors.

Foreign versions of the F-15 have received newer technology not around when the American planes were built. Over the years, U.S.F-15s have received upgrades to their radars and cockpits, but the Air Force recently canceled an effort to add electronic jammers to its older F-15Cs. Some Air Force observers said that indicates the service might retire the plane sooner than planned.

Boeing has long pitched new versions of the Strike Eagle to the Air Force and international customers. In 2010, the firm pitched the Silent Eagle — an F-15 with special coating and canted vertical tails — that executives said could better evade enemy detection. In 2015, it pitched an upgrade to the F-15C — the aerial combat version — that would allow it to carry 16 air-to-air missiles.

At times, Boeing has argued that upgraded versions of their planes could come close to matching the advanced stealth, sensors and electronic warfare capabilities of the F-35 at a fraction of the cost.

Now the savings might not be as much as the price tag of the Air Force F-35 has been dropping annually. The Pentagon on Sunday announced it has a handshake agreement with Lockheed Martin for a new batch of 141 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters. The Air Force version of the plane cost about $89 million per copy, according to a Reuters.

An Air Force source noted that buying new F-15s now would not be seen as competing with the F-35 since the the Joint Strike Fighter has never been considered a replacement for the F-15.

 

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