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Clark Griswold

Trends in Air to Air Combat

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Relight on thread.

Updated 4 Gen Fighters carrying a shit load of missiles.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/boeings-touts-new-16-air-to-air-missile-carrying-f-15-e-1730258333

1427441622857100359.jpg

With this....Raptors target, F-15E launches and leaves (via Data link) Raptors clean up the ensuing shit show. Is that how it works?

Disclaimer: I'm partly sarcastic and partly interested if that's actually possible.

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With this....Raptors target, F-15E launches and leaves (via Data link) Raptors clean up the ensuing shit show. Is that how it works?

Disclaimer: I'm partly sarcastic and partly interested if that's actually possible.

Boeing also tried to get this idea going of the "missile truck" with the B-1R, there's Dogfights episode where this is used in a notional future A2A scenario, spoiler alert it all works great and the enemy just blows up in droves because they don't have a clue, ok sarcasm off.  Probably not a bad idea but unless the BCA gets rescinded, amended or just ignored not sure where the money is going to come for it.  AFA convention is this coming week so let's see if Boeing has a display trying to sell this idea. 

For my two cents, this idea of a 4+ gen missile truck would work if you gave it to the ANG / Reserves and tried to coax Allies interested / needing new airframes for their fighter fleet but not wanting to go all in on 5th gen b/c of cost.  Buy Advanced Capability Superhornet for the Guard / Reserves, give nations like Canada, Australia, Finland the confidence to purchase as the USAF is flying it to avoid the launch customer failure of the F-20.  Allies get a good affordable jet, Guard gets new iron, AD gets a missile truck when / if they need it.

This question will not be answered on the internets.

2 - just open source and conjecture in clear.

Edited by Clark Griswold

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For my two cents, this idea of a 4+ gen missile truck would work if you gave it to the ANG / Reserves and tried to coax Allies interested / needing new airframes for their fighter fleet but not wanting to go all in on 5th gen b/c of cost.  Buy Advanced Capability Superhornet for the Guard / Reserves, give nations like Canada, Australia, Finland the confidence to purchase as the USAF is flying it to avoid the launch customer failure of the F-20.  Allies get a good affordable jet, Guard gets new iron, AD gets a missile truck when / if they need it.

2 - just open source and conjecture in clear.

In that scenario, why not just buy an upgraded F-15 (ie: F-15SA). It would probably be easier for the USAF to swallow (STS) than to buy Super Hornets.

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In that scenario, why not just buy an upgraded F-15 (ie: F-15SA). It would probably be easier for the USAF to swallow (STS) than to buy Super Hornets.

Well, my thinking is that with the economy of scale that the FMS of the Advanced Superbug would bring, probably 250+ assuming an almost 1 to 1 replacement for the three countries I rattled off and then figure about that same amount for the ARC, along with any the Navy or USMC might buy and you could keep the costs manageable by having a really good production run and leveraging the components that would carry over from the Superbug to the Advanced Superbug.

The F-15SA would be cool but the Bug and Superbug have landed more sales than the Eagle among the allies, you probably could get them onboard easier as more of them have Hornets in inventory and the upgrade to better version of what they already fly would be lower risk, lower cost, easier transition, etc...

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Boeing also tried to get this idea going of the "missile truck" with the B-1R, 

The BONE-R!?

I still think the History Channel got punked on a national level.

 

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The BONE-R!?

I still think the History Channel got punked on a national level.

 

Probably - always thought CAC was either a poorly designed acronym or a good joke slipped in (sts) without the PC Corps realizing it also

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Sixth generation concepts from Northrop & LM:

This Is Northrop Grumman's Idea Of A Sixth-Generation Fighter, But Is It Feasible?

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-is-northrop-grummans-idea-of-a-sixth-generation-fi-1747680825

From the article;

 Since the F-35 procurement plan spans multiple decades, and supposedly will continue on well into the 2030s, where will the money come from for yet another advanced fighter aircraft? Especially considering this one will be even more complex and capable than the F-35 by a large margin.

That is the rub, where the hell is the cash or political will going to come from to fund this as you are still buying the F-35?

 

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5 hours ago, brabus said:

dollar-printing.jpeg

Nope - everybody has to pay the piper at some point and that time is coming... damn it...

Unrelated to the post on 6th gen concepts but a question for BO.net - where is the US or European answer to aircraft like the JF-17, MiG-35 or F/A-50? 

Relatively inexpensive to acquire and operate 4th gen multi-role fighters (price around 30 million) with a per flight hour cost in the $7500 or less range?  FMS are getting vetoed by the State Dept but having those relationships, supply-sustainment-training-etc... are key to building inroads.  Other nations are taking advantage of this and moving into this market:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/06/16/pakistan-jf17-thunder-export-china-rafale-egypt-africa-south-america-argentina/28818897/

Why this matters is that it keeps your defense industrial base solvent without the need for a big ticket 5th or 6th gen new MWS program that's a budget buster to keep them in the black.  We need to field a Freedom Fighter for the 21st century for our price conscious allies (Philippines, Columbia, etc..) not just for them but for us.

 

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dollar-printing.jpeg

Nope - everybody has to pay the piper at some point and that time is coming... damn it...

Unrelated to the post on 6th gen concepts but a question for BO.net - where is the US or European answer to aircraft like the JF-17, MiG-35 or F/A-50?

Relatively inexpensive to acquire and operate 4th gen multi-role fighters (price around 30 million) with a per flight hour cost in the $7500 or less range? FMS are getting vetoed by the State Dept but having those relationships, supply-sustainment-training-etc... are key to building inroads. Other nations are taking advantage of this and moving into this market:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/06/16/pakistan-jf17-thunder-export-china-rafale-egypt-africa-south-america-argentina/28818897/

Why this matters is that it keeps your defense industrial base solvent without the need for a big ticket 5th or 6th gen new MWS program that's a budget buster to keep them in the black. We need to field a Freedom Fighter for the 21st century for our price conscious allies (Philippines, Columbia, etc..) not just for them but for us.

Well in the case of the Philippines, FA-50 was chosen because the Phil's were more interested in the new car smell of the 8x FA-50 vice buying "used" Blk 40 vipers from us. At least Lockheed gets some cash out of the deal from KAI, but they only found out after the contract was signed all the stuff they weren't getting when they read on the Viper guy with the Liason team. Way to go JUSMAG, another great success.

FMS is a bear to sell to those people because it's all about how many airframes they can park on their ramp so DCS is what they keep trying to go with even though their MX and logistics can't support it. I think FA-50 and A109 are both going to be eye opening failures for their Air Force. If they remember that though it will be good because they are looking at the next 4-4.5 gen strike fighter 10 years from now already to follow on the FA-50 buy. Frankly as much as buying FA-50 was a bad move tactically it was a good move strategically because they only have three (really 2.5) S-211 jet trainers left. So without FA-50 they would be taking guys out of a non turbo low wing piston trainer straight to an F-16... Nothing terrible about that idea at all.

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8 hours ago, Lawman said:

Well in the case of the Philippines, FA-50 was chosen because the Phil's were more interested in the new car smell of the 8x FA-50 vice buying "used" Blk 40 vipers from us. At least Lockheed gets some cash out of the deal from KAI, but they only found out after the contract was signed all the stuff they weren't getting when they read on the Viper guy with the Liason team. Way to go JUSMAG, another great success.

FMS is a bear to sell to those people because it's all about how many airframes they can park on their ramp so DCS is what they keep trying to go with even though their MX and logistics can't support it. I think FA-50 and A109 are both going to be eye opening failures for their Air Force. If they remember that though it will be good because they are looking at the next 4-4.5 gen strike fighter 10 years from now already to follow on the FA-50 buy. Frankly as much as buying FA-50 was a bad move tactically it was a good move strategically because they only have three (really 2.5) S-211 jet trainers left. So without FA-50 they would be taking guys out of a non turbo low wing piston trainer straight to an F-16... Nothing terrible about that idea at all.

Small jump in ORM.  

Forgot to add to the blue light special list, the AIDC F-CK-1Ching-kuo.  Never change that designation.  Another in the 30 mil range and would have the side benefit of really pissing of China.  But as you said, this will probably have the main benefit of being able to realistically handle something bigger (sts) later on but with a Pacific Pivot, this could/should fall under Building Partnerships, a core function now for the AF.  

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Well in the case of the Philippines, FA-50 was chosen because the Phil's were more interested in the new car smell of the 8x FA-50 vice buying "used" Blk 40 vipers from us. At least Lockheed gets some cash out of the deal from KAI, but they only found out after the contract was signed all the stuff they weren't getting when they read on the Viper guy with the Liason team. Way to go JUSMAG, another great success.

FMS is a bear to sell to those people because it's all about how many airframes they can park on their ramp so DCS is what they keep trying to go with even though their MX and logistics can't support it. I think FA-50 and A109 are both going to be eye opening failures for their Air Force. If they remember that though it will be good because they are looking at the next 4-4.5 gen strike fighter 10 years from now already to follow on the FA-50 buy. Frankly as much as buying FA-50 was a bad move tactically it was a good move strategically because they only have three (really 2.5) S-211 jet trainers left. So without FA-50 they would be taking guys out of a non turbo low wing piston trainer straight to an F-16... Nothing terrible about that idea at all.

Small jump in ORM.

Forgot to add to the blue light special list, the AIDC F-CK-1Ching-kuo. Never change that designation. Another in the 30 mil range and would have the side benefit of really pissing of China. But as you said, this will probably have the main benefit of being able to realistically handle something bigger (sts) later on but with a Pacific Pivot, this could/should fall under Building Partnerships, a core function now for the AF.

It was but like so many things you can only lead the horse to the water. And the other part was the tail wagging the dog with how they wrote aircraft requirements to basically meet a particular aircraft before they ever actually had a company submit bids. Watched the Phil's do that with the light strike aircraft where they basically copy pasted from Super Tacano's website. They even had cool wooden models of favorite airplane's they we're looking at in their Air Force colors sitting in flag offices. Nothing crooked going on at all....

I think a lot of it for them and other nations like them is all about pride before sense and nobody will tell the emperor they have no clothes in their cultures. The Indonesians for instance have absolutely no need for 8 Echo model Apaches complete with radars. They could get two dozen 58Ds from our retired fleet complete with training and MX assistance for the same money and do a lot more for their combat ability and actually generate sorties and crew training. But Apaches have that new bad ass factor so like the Saudis and their 64s, who cares if it's too much plane and too little usable blade time we just have to spend this money. The other part is now since they and the Thai's are all getting E models everybody else in the neighborhood wants one. The Phil's asked on more than a few occasions about getting into Longbow and all I could do was shake my head at what they were asking to get into. 30 million dollar maintenance pig, yeah that's gonna work.

These Air Forces are like cars in the bad parts of town. Haven't got the money for insurance or gas but it's got a really nice set of rims as it sits in the driveway of a run down neighborhood.

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21 hours ago, Lawman said:

It was but like so many things you can only lead the horse to the water. And the other part was the tail wagging the dog with how they wrote aircraft requirements to basically meet a particular aircraft before they ever actually had a company submit bids. Watched the Phil's do that with the light strike aircraft where they basically copy pasted from Super Tacano's website. They even had cool wooden models of favorite airplane's they we're looking at in their Air Force colors sitting in flag offices. Nothing crooked going on at all....

I think a lot of it for them and other nations like them is all about pride before sense and nobody will tell the emperor they have no clothes in their cultures. The Indonesians for instance have absolutely no need for 8 Echo model Apaches complete with radars. They could get two dozen 58Ds from our retired fleet complete with training and MX assistance for the same money and do a lot more for their combat ability and actually generate sorties and crew training. But Apaches have that new bad ass factor so like the Saudis and their 64s, who cares if it's too much plane and too little usable blade time we just have to spend this money. The other part is now since they and the Thai's are all getting E models everybody else in the neighborhood wants one. The Phil's asked on more than a few occasions about getting into Longbow and all I could do was shake my head at what they were asking to get into. 30 million dollar maintenance pig, yeah that's gonna work.

These Air Forces are like cars in the bad parts of town. Haven't got the money for insurance or gas but it's got a really nice set of rims as it sits in the driveway of a run down neighborhood.

Yup, the boss is right always... right boss...

Or I would say focusing your AF on getting a capability (or only a small amount of a capability) you probably don't need and/or in an amount that is not operationally relevant.  12 FA-50s will not deter China but 20 or so Scorpion Jets or light attack helos is a lot of capability to deal with Islamic insurgents in their backyard.  

Their country, their decisions though. 

 

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Yup, the boss is right always... right boss...

Or I would say focusing your AF on getting a capability (or only a small amount of a capability) you probably don't need and/or in an amount that is not operationally relevant. 12 FA-50s will not deter China but 20 or so Scorpion Jets or light attack helos is a lot of capability to deal with Islamic insurgents in their backyard.

Their country, their decisions though.

You should see the stupid in their Anti-Sub program.

Essentially their president made a speech saying we are gonna do something about these Chinese subs in our waters and the military is scrambling to buy anything anti-sub they can get their hands on because of it. Last I heard they wanted to buy 2x SH-60Rs and call it good to go, not realizing just how intensive actual anti sub operations are.

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If you think it's just our poorer South American/pacific allies that have issues look no further than (most) Europe as well. If it looks cool at an air show and has the A/A designation. They'll buy it. Somewhere at #69 on the list is necessity to strategic needs and usefulness.

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If you think it's just our poorer South American/pacific allies that have issues look no further than (most) Europe as well. If it looks cool at an air show and has the A/A designation. They'll buy it. Somewhere at #69 on the list is necessity to strategic needs and usefulness.

Yeah but if I have to go spend 6 months on a liason team I'd much rather do it in Eastern Europe.

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On December 16, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Marco said:

Did somebody say Freedom Fighter?

I know a guy, make good deal.....

http://m.controller.com/ListingDetail/Index?listingId=1404013&categoryId=10072

This jet will not stay on the market too long, me thinks.  

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On 12/17/2015 at 10:45 PM, Lawman said:

 Last I heard they wanted to buy 2x SH-60Rs and call it good to go, not realizing just how intensive actual anti sub operations are.

that was money well spent... /s

Found another article on the subject of poor acquisition choices of the Phillippines AF,  IAI offered them low time Block 60 Kfirs with technical support for 20 million per tail.  FA-50s came in at 38 mil per tail and have no combat record, where as you could almost buy two Kfirs for the price of one, get support and is already operated by Sri Lanka and Columbia.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/iai-looks-east-sell-updated-kfirs

 

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 Last I heard they wanted to buy 2x SH-60Rs and call it good to go, not realizing just how intensive actual anti sub operations are.

that was money well spent... /s

Found another article on the subject of poor acquisition choices of the Phillippines AF,  IAI offered them low time Block 60 Kfirs with technical support for 20 million per tail.  FA-50s came in at 38 mil per tail and have no combat record, where as you could almost buy two Kfirs for the price of one, get support and is already operated by Sri Lanka and Columbia.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/iai-looks-east-sell-updated-kfirs

 

The FA-50 did have one big advantage for them in the world of airplanes they could have picked and that was that it is very Lock-Mart Viper at heart.

The Viper guy on the team went through the Dash 1 for it when they got him a copy and said it was almost close enough to fool him. So teaching them in the future will be easier. We just have to get them to buy something smart to transition to like Blk 60s in the future and not do something stupid like get DCS Rafales and then ask us for help.

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