2013 F/A-18 crash: Out of fuel, out of time and one chance to land

[StoleIt]

That sounds striking similar to strats...

Edited April 19, 2014 by StoleIt

[Buddy Spike]

That sounds striking similar to strats...

I don't remember there being a super-secret-double-blind rating average system that only the commander and promotion boards get to see in the AF. Nor do I remember being 1 of 5 one year and 2 of 14 the next being a scarlet letter. But it has been a couple of years, and I was never an Active Duty bubba, so maybe things have changed.

[Toro]

I don't remember there being a super-secret-double-blind rating average system that only the commander and promotion boards get to see in the AF. Nor do I remember being 1 of 5 one year and 2 of 14 the next being a scarlet letter. But it has been a couple of years, and I was never an Active Duty bubba, so maybe things have changed.

Hold on - you're not still talking about FITREPs, are you? FITREPs assign a score to each individual from 1-5 like an EPR. But unlike an EPR, they also display the commander's average ranking assigned to his personnel - so I five doesn't mean shit when the group average is also a five, but it stands out when the group average is a 3 (as designed). And their are a certain percentage of allowed "promotable" designators for each rank - no different than a DP. Those are the two primary scores on the FITREP.

[Buddy Spike]

Hold on - you're not still talking about FITREPs, are you? FITREPs assign a score to each individual from 1-5 like an EPR. But unlike an EPR, they also display the commander's average ranking assigned to his personnel - so I five doesn't mean shit when the group average is also a five, but it stands out when the group average is a 3 (as designed). And their are a certain percentage of allowed "promotable" designators for each rank - no different than a DP. Those are the two primary scores on the FITREP.

There are two parts to a Navy FITREP: Performance traits (1-5, 1 being Below Standards, 2 Progressing, 3 Meets Standards, 4 above standards and 5 Greatly Exceeds standards) and Promotion Recommendation (Significant problems, Progressing, Promotable, Must Promote and Early Promote). Yes, a FITREP does list a Member Trait average versus the Summary Group Average, but the "CO/Promotion board only" score that I mentioned is the Commander's average for the command. That's what you don't ever see and that influences the board.

Like Bolter King said, you can only get so many EP, MP, P, etc. So you'll get guys backstabbing each other for that.

[Toro]

There are two parts to a Navy FITREP: Performance traits (1-5, 1 being Below Standards, 2 Progressing, 3 Meets Standards, 4 above standards and 5 Greatly Exceeds standards) and Promotion Recommendation (Significant problems, Progressing, Promotable, Must Promote and Early Promote). Yes, a FITREP does list a Member Trait average versus the Summary Group Average, but the "CO/Promotion board only" score that I mentioned is the Commander's average for the command. That's what you don't ever see and that influences the board.

Got it.

Like Bolter King said, you can only get so many EP, MP, P, etc. So you'll get guys backstabbing each other for that.

That's not a problem with the system, that's a problem with being around a bunch of douchebags. I've never been anywhere where guys turned into dickheads for a strat or DP.

[BolterKing]

Got it.

That's not a problem with the system, that's a problem with being around a bunch of douchebags. I've never been anywhere where guys turned into dickheads for a strat or DP.

Only seen it once. Douche rocket was universally shunned by his peers but was such a suck up leadership looked out for him. He's progressing last I heard, but he's very lonely doing it.

[Ram]

Only seen it once. Douche rocket was universally shunned by his peers but was such a suck up leadership looked out for him. He's progressing last I heard, but he's very lonely doing it.

At least he's only missing the weekly shirtless beach volleyball game with the bros.

[albertschu]

Not sure if the root cause is the FITREP system or something else, but in my experience Navy officers tend to be backstabbers. Chiefs, however, tend to be solid dudes.

[nunya]

Navy officers tend to be backstabbers.

Wow.

[BolterKing]

Not sure if the root cause is the FITREP system or something else, but in my experience Navy officers tend to be backstabbers. Chiefs, however, tend to be solid dudes.

Your experience? Which is what exactly?

Not even close to accurate.

[albertschu]

Your experience? Which is what exactly?

2 joint deployments

Year long school w/ Navy officers

Currently commanding joint unit

[BolterKing]

Communities of said back stabbers?

Edited May 1, 2014 by BolterKing

[armada1651]

Couple things I'd like to point out here.

First, BolterKing is right on about this mishap being partially due to a systems indioscyncracy that almost no one knew about previously.

Second, I don't think I agree that the Navy "values rank over experience." It is true that the SAR contingency is usually briefed that the highest ranking crew will be the OSC, but I can't think of any other examples of that mindset - and I think the intent in that one is that if the skipper or CAG are airborne, they immediately start taking responsibility for their people. Personally, I always brief that SAR OSC will go to the highest ranking crew unless someone else has higher SA or a more suitable fuel state and I've never been told to do otherwise. Also, in my experience, it's exceptionally rare for the highest ranking aircrew to not also have a very high experience level, especially on a tactical event. The only exceptions to that are usually if some guest VIP is trunking a flight for some reason. In general though, I would say the Navy (or at least the Navy fighter community) values expertise over rank or experience - as anyone who is familiar with TOPGUN and their sway in the community can attest.

I also think it's worth mentioning that Navy aircraft operating at sea are in a very peculiar situation in regards to who has responsibility for them. In almost every other scenario I can think of in aviation, the pilot-in-command is the bottom-line decision-making authority. For a Navy asset operating off a ship, that is not the case. The captain of the ship or the commander of the strike group (said rear admiral, in this case) has the authority to make your decision for you, and you had better be prepared to pay for it if you disobey his orders. Like I said, I don't know of any other situation in the airplane-flying business that's like this. That's not to say there's no reason for it - among others, there's the fact that we routinely operate in places and at fuel states which leave us no option to divert ashore, with one runway...that's short and moving on all axes. A bad decision by one aviator can place the rest of the air wing in extremis in a unique way. In this case, several poor decisions by the leadership put their aircraft in extremis.

Lastly, the story is indeed much better in person.

Edited May 9, 2014 by armada1651

[BFM this]

Also, in my experience, it's exceptionally rare for the highest ranking aircrew to not also have a very high experience level, especially on a tactical event.

...meanwhile, in the Air force...

[BolterKing]

Couple things I'd like to point out here.

Lots of words.

Shack.

[albertschu]

Communities of said back stabbers?

I've worked mainly flyers (mostly P-3 pilots and EA-6 NFOs) and SWOs.

The two most memorable examples were committed by flyers (see "availability bias").

I signed comsec gear over to an EA-6 NFO, he secured it in his office. When it came time to take inventory, rather than look for it, he tried to make it look like I lost it. Fortunately, I had the paperwork.

After a deployment, when my joint decoration got lost, my helicopter-pilot boss didn't return my phone calls or reply to my email requesting assistance. He had a chip on his shoulder, because he thought I was too casual with him. Fortunately, an army officer to whom I reported via dashed line had a copy of the paperwork and resubmitted.

While I was working as an LNO from a joint task force HQ to an OGA, I saw a lot of selfish behavior. Again, best example comes from a flyer (P-3 pilot). Since he'd been there longer than I, he thought he knew everyone in the OGA. Whenever he didn't like the products I provided, he would directly contact people in the OGA and attempt to discredit me, both with the TF staff and the OGA leadership. Eventually, the OGA refused to continue working with the TF. He went home without a decoration. (I came home w/ 2) The majority of the Navy officers on this staff were SWOs, but I didn't work with them as closely. In general, most of them appeared out to make themselves look like they were winning the campaign by themselves by singlehandedly creating enormous piles of worthless staffwork.

Hope this doesn't sound bitter. I'm not. Everything has worked out fine for me.

Recently, I started working with a few supply corps officers and have not observed anything.

[brabus]

That sucks, but it also sounds like you interacted with 3 douche bags and perhaps a couple more. I can point out the same number in just about every other walk of life/job. It's all relative. FWIW, I've flown with a lot of Navy dudes from multiple communities who are good people, pilots and officers.

[BolterKing]

I've worked mainly flyers (mostly P-3 pilots and EA-6 NFOs) and SWOs.

See you could've stopped right there. Most SWOs are back stabbers, and most P-3 pilots/NFOs are just SWOs with wings.

That said, I know some epic dudes from the P-3 community, and very few of them stayed past O-3, on active duty anyway. That definitely is a very different community from the rest of Naval Aviation.

[albertschu]

That sucks, but it also sounds like you interacted with 3 douche bags and perhaps a couple more. I can point out the same number in just about every other walk of life/job. It's all relative. FWIW, I've flown with a lot of Navy dudes from multiple communities who are good people, pilots and officers.

Good to know others haven't had the same experience. I've worked with just as many Army officers and more AF officers and haven't seen the same level of douchary. The dude that went home without a decoration was definitely an outlier: I thought he was a jackass the first time I talked to him and every one agreed. The other 2 were great dudes, right up to the second that they weren't.

[albertschu]

See you could've stopped right there. Most SWOs are back stabbers, and most P-3 pilots/NFOs are just SWOs with wings.

That said, I know some epic dudes from the P-3 community, and very few of them stayed past O-3, on active duty anyway. That definitely is a very different community from the rest of Naval Aviation.

Good to know as well. I don't want to derail this thread anymore, but it would be interesting to know why SWOs are backstabbers (i've worked more closely w/ flyers, so all my anecdotes were related to flyers, but I felt it was more of a SWO characteristic). Also would be interesting to know why you say P-3 pilots are SWOs w/ wings. It correlates with my experience, but is not a dynamic I would have expected.

[Azimuth]

I've heard SWO's act like Missileers, which isn't a good thing.

[Lawman]

I've heard SWO's act like Missileers, which isn't a good thing.

If ever there was a culture in the Navy known for eating their young it's Surface Warfare.

That's kinda the reason for the back stabbing, it's viewed as the only way to get ahead and it's a fair game because everybody else's is playing it so you don't want to be the one honest guy left out.

[BolterKing]

If ever there was a culture in the Navy known for eating their young it's Surface Warfare.

That's kinda the reason for the back stabbing, it's viewed as the only way to get ahead and it's a fair game because everybody else's is playing it so you don't want to be the one honest guy left out.

It's also a very tough community to advance in. If you have career aspirations, there are no FITREP points for being a good dude. If you're not willing to climb over your friends, you're pretty much done before you start.

[Flare]

I've heard SWO's act like Missileers, which isn't a good thing.

I wouldn't limit them to just missileers...more like all shoe clerks in general.