Kilgore Trout Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 That makes for great media. Are you saying that there should be no standard for testing? Or that there should be no testing at all? Or something else? The pass/fail at 90% doesn't bother me as much. I don't have a big problem with the 100% to pass as long as the questions/answers are legit. I've had students and other people I knew in missiles that said the tests would ask questions like "You answer the phone and do step 1 of the checklist, what is the next thing you do?" The logical answer would be to write what step 2 is but then you would be wrong because the answer they want is "put the phone down because you'll need both hands for step 2 of the checklist" or something like that. If the question was "What's step 2 of this memorized checklist" and the answer was writing out step 2, then I have a lot less heart burn about what their standards are. I was more impressed with the way she knocked down his 'Big Blue' answers. When he said that all 9,600 people on base are responsible for the successful launch and she replied "aren't the missileers (the only people taking the test) the only ones that matter?" He's including people that aren't even taking the tests and saying they're not cheating. Sounds like he believes people's OPRs/EPRs too much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Tried to watch it... damn tornado warnings and local news channels cutting in to give weather updates fucked it up so I was only able to get bits and pieces of the story. Gotta love the bag of potatoes that was sitting on the bottom row far left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaddebate Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 You can watch it or read the transcript at:http://www.cbsnews.com/news/whos-minding-the-nuclear-weaponsIt's said that the reason for the cheating is a "culture of perfection" where missileers have felt they had to get 100 percent on the tests they take three times a month or face no chance of promotion. We spoke to a group of current missileers at Warren Air Force Base - including 26-year-old Daniel Sharp from Tennessee. Lesley Stahl: Why did people feel they had to score 100 percent? Daniel Sharp: When I first came here leadership that was in place told me that the minimum passing score for my test was a 90 percent, but if I was making 90s I was a D student. And I would be treated that way. Lesley Stahl: But you actually were here under that 100 percent pressure yourself. Daniel Sharp: I was. Lesley Stahl: And you felt the pressure and that caused stress, I'm sure of it. Daniel Sharp: Absolutely. But it also caused a great deal of studying and a great deal of proficiency. Jack Weinstein: No one cheated because they had to-- they didn't know the material. They cheated in order to get 100. Lesley Stahl: Is that gone? Jack Weinstein: That's gone. Lesley Stahl: So what replaces that? Jack Weinstein: Well, right now, it's pass-fail. As long as they get, you know, above the 90, which is the standard-- Lesley Stahl: Wait, wait, wait. Pass-- it's still pass-- you fail at 90? Jack Weinstein: Yeah, it's still at 90 right now. Lesley Stahl: Wow. How is that improving things? Jack Weinstein: When you take away the pressure of getting 100 on a test, you have people, focused on what they need to know. I think it changes things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForgotPassword Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What came across from the episode and the general being interviewed was a whole lot of..."it's not my fault." Those poor missileers who volunteered to be interviewed on the panel....probably shitting their pants the entire time and STILL going to get crushed even though they didn't air too much dirty laundry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panchbarnes Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) The 90% passing standard might be reasonable depending on the level the airmen are testing to. After all, this is the nuclear mission, 70% at the 2b level (other tech school standard) might not cut it. I hope the testing office who reviewed and approved the tests were investigated as well. Sounds like they should have raised the BS flags on some of the questions. What's more troubling (but not surprised) is the leadership's attitude given how much spotlight they have been under. Just riding out the storm then everything will be back to normal. SSDD Edited April 28, 2014 by PanchBarnes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fud Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Surprised this hasn't been brought to light. http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140328/NEWS05/303280042/Commanders-fired-changes-coming-nuclear-missile-officers There was an article stating names of those fired (all men) while the WG/CV, a female, gets to stay. Just an interesting observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F16Rooster Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Props to Lesley Stahl for calling that chode out on his bullshit numbers. Paraphrasing here: 3-Star: “Less than one percent of 9,600 Airmen violated our core values, there’s no problems here” Stahl: “How many missileers cheated on the test?” (You know, the ones that actually babysit the missiles). 3-Star: “About 20 percent” Stahl: “That’s a problem” Great technique to invalidate everything else you say during the interview. She metaphorically bitch slapped him over the 1% comment as she well should have. More hyperbole from another manager. I do think the 90% pass/fail number is valid. As stated previously in this discussion, people were not cheating to get the 90% required to pass; they were cheating to get the 98% required to be eligible for a trainer/evaluator job. There was one point in the interview where Mrs. Stahl asked how many of them had been stuck out for 48 or 72 hours. I thought that was a great opportunity for them to bring up their monthly schedule. It's not getting stuck out for 48 or 72 hours that sucks. It's the 8 (I'm guessing many more than that at Malmstrom right now) times a month that are closer to 36 hour days, the 2 other days of testing, the minimum of 1 trainer ride, an evaluation every 3rd month, the additional duty days, the days and days spent on inspection prep....it all adds up to a mental grind that sucks the life out of you. I guess that's a bit beyond the simple scope of her interview though. At least she did bring up how busy an alert is; not exactly just sitting around like everyone assumes. The 90% passing standard might be reasonable depending on the level the airmen are testing to. After all, this is the nuclear mission, 70% at the 2b level (other tech school standard) might not cut it. I hope the testing office who reviewed and approved the tests were investigated as well. Sounds like they should have raised the BS flags on some of the questions. What's more troubling (but not surprised) is the leadership's attitude given how much spotlight they have been under. Just riding out the storm then everything will be back to normal. SSDD Testing office? What's that? Disclaimer: I've been out of missiles for several years now so that may actually exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herk Driver Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) Surprised this hasn't been brought to light.http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140328/NEWS05/303280042/Commanders-fired-changes-coming-nuclear-missile-officers There was an article stating names of those fired (all men) while the WG/CV, a female, gets to stay. Just an interesting observation. Another interesting note, the Wg/CC from my understanding was going to be allowed to stay. He was not forced to resign...he did so on his own to take responsibility for the actions of those under him. If true that puts his actions and the letter he wrote in a slightly different light, IMO. The Wg/CV, like her boss, wasn't fired and she chose not to resign. Edit to add: The Wg/CC was also on the promotion list to O-7, BTW. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Edited May 2, 2014 by Herk Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panchbarnes Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) Testing office? What's that? Disclaimer: I've been out of missiles for several years now so that may actually exist. The more I think about it, the more I think it's just an AETC thing. I forgot the name of the program but AF written exams are developed based on specific criteria (1a, 2B, 3A denoting levels of proficiency) and the test questions/answers/results/comments are supposed to be routinely reviewed by the unit testing official (usually GS person). If there is a high-miss question then the test-takers can protest and the question can possibly thrown out. Edited April 29, 2014 by PanchBarnes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Malmstrom's new Wing King is a cop. That has got to be a first for a non-Airbase Wing. http://www.malmstrom.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123406184 Edited April 30, 2014 by Azimuth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 It's okay guys, the FIP proposals are now in. Multi-cams, $25/day incentive pay, and a nuclear duty medal will solve all of the problems. I wish I was kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 It's okay guys, the FIP proposals are now in. Multi-cams, $25/day incentive pay, and a nuclear duty medal will solve all of the problems. I wish I was kidding. Hm. So, when do we get an increase in flight pay? It isn't very much when you consider the value lost due to inflation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xaarman Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 ...why multi cams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaddebate Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 So, when do we get an increase in flight pay? After your cheating scandal. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 After your cheating scandal. You heard the man, time for a rash of cheating on the monthly boldface exams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 ...why multi cams? Because that will help with the "Model Defender" welfare. One of the main reasons for pushing it was utilizing the fire-resistant garments that are used in AFG, however they are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy the non-FR version of the uniform. They're planning on changing the uniform reg so it can be worn all of the time, not just when posted. Also the $25/day incentive pay is going to be around $500/month for the normal security forces member (they work a 3-4/on 4-5/off schedule). Guess they won't have a problem getting people to post out in the field anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 The nuke folks could have it worse...they could have the brutal schedules that TIB has to deal with.http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140430/NEWS/304300047/Band-members-cite-lack-sleep-grueling-rehearsals “I wish it were 12-hour days,” Staff Sgt. Brittney Perry said when asked if Tops in Blue members regularly worked 12 hours a day. “It was normally 18 hours. It was hell. There was one [stretch] we pulled 36 hours. Because of a lack of sleep, our entire team was sick. There were a lot of injuries. A lack of sleep, it just messes with your body.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striper_WSO Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Because that will help with the "Model Defender" welfare. One of the main reasons for pushing it was utilizing the fire-resistant garments that are used in AFG, however they are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy the non-FR version of the uniform. They're planning on changing the uniform reg so it can be worn all of the time, not just when posted. Also the $25/day incentive pay is going to be around $500/month for the normal security forces member (they work a 3-4/on 4-5/off schedule). Guess they won't have a problem getting people to post out in the field anymore... Are nuclear weapons flammable? Is that their biggest worry if something goes wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 IMHO the FR is because the security is almost entirely vehicle-borne and that's what the FIPers were familiar with. The airborne security is getting non-FR as well even though the fly in the helicopters where the aircrew will be wearing the FR 2-piece flight suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stract Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) IMHO the FR is because the security is almost entirely vehicle-borne and that's what the FIPers were familiar with. The airborne security is getting non-FR as well even though the fly in the helicopters where the aircrew will be wearing the FR 2-piece flight suits. well not sure about your regs, but ours say MEPs performing in flight duties are required to wear flight suits/FR. So the flying crew chief who flew with us today to run the 8500 while we did a MR track and balance and rebaselined the engines was required to wear a flight suit, which he checked out from supply since he didn't have his own issued. If we had cops on board doing something (not just being ferried somewhere as pax), they would be required to wear FR gear as well. AFI 11-2HH-60V3: 2.8.2. Crew chiefs and maintenance/logistic support personnel are required to wear nomex flight gear when performing in-flight duties. Edited May 1, 2014 by stract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Not in our regs. Also TRF (the cops we fly) are governed by the Security Forces Center. They (and AFGSC/A7S) have a lofty fairy tale in their head that every cop is the same and they get the same gear and the same weapons. TRF does not have FR clothing, because Amn Snuffy at the main gate doesn't need it so why would an operational support flyer? Nevermind the fact that the gear required for their mission is different than pulling over blue hairs for going 5 mph over the speed limit on their way to the BX. Also the SFC and A7S are the reasons that TRF lost the ACOGs on their M4s, and are still using an M24 for CPEC when every other service has transitioned to something more modern. In addition the FR ABU is restricted by AFI36-2903 Para 5.1 The 100% cotton ABU is a distinctive uniform/equipment item developed and authorized specifically for Airmen in jobs that have occupational safety and health administration (OSHA) requirements for wear. It is not authorized or intended for wear by all Airmen. TRF cannot get it because the security forces uniforms are individual purchase. FR ABUs are an issued item, just like flight suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 So really they're too cheap to pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stract Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 OSHA requirement...so put it on their Form 55 that fire retardant clothing is required to perform duties on aircraft, problem solved. It's PPE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipatrol Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) They have FR uniforms. They're not allowed to wear them. Edited May 1, 2014 by Skipatrol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10percenttruth Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Maybe extra money will help? How bout a medal?http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140529/NEWS/305290064/Bonuses-incentive-pay-approved-some-missileers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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