Cave_Pilot Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 If a missileer is assigned to EWO/Weapons Shop/Scripts/OGV they do not pull alert. This means that the people making the tests are not currently CMR. The wing and group leadership do not pull alert. I think that the sq leadership pulls alert but not too often. Also the instructor/evaluator dynamic is much different than in the flying world. Evaluators are not instructors and then only for their crew position. So if you are a deputy commander (co-pilot) you first pull crew, then you upgrade to instructor, then to evaluator, Once they move to crew commander (AC) then they start the entire process again. Close. "Line" instructors/evaluators are CMR, but only pull alert twice a month. The EWO plans/training shops aren't CMR and don't pull alert. Squadron commanders pull alert twice a month, group/wing leadership doesn't. Ideally, you spend a year or so as a deputy crew commander, then you go to be either an instructor or an evaluator for a year, then upgrade to crew commander, spend about a year doing that, then go back up to be an instructor or evaluator again. Instructor/evaluator hires are competitive though, so only ~20% of crewmembers get selected for either. (Based in part on - you guessed it - test scores.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram02 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Squadron commanders pull alert twice a month, group/wing leadership doesn't. Which I never understood as a line guy. In a flying wing, the WG/CC and OG/CC still fly, so in a missile wing, why don't they pull alert? To me, the ultimate mark of credibility would have been for the WG/CC or OG/CC to pull an alert every now and then and demonstrate some actual leadership in the field instead of simply making motivational speeches at pre-D (And what if they were actually ACP/SCP qualified? Imagine that, an OG/CC pulling alert at an ACP, actually leading his OG). By not having WG/GP leadership pull alert, it always seemed a little protectionist to me, but then again apparently you can fail an NSI as a WG/CC and still go on to be a general officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElLoco Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Which I never understood as a line guy. In a flying wing, the WG/CC and OG/CC still fly, so in a missile wing, why don't they pull alert? To me, the ultimate mark of credibility would have been for the WG/CC or OG/CC to pull an alert every now and then and demonstrate some actual leadership in the field instead of simply making motivational speeches at pre-D (And what if they were actually ACP/SCP qualified? Imagine that, an OG/CC pulling alert at an ACP, actually leading his OG). By not having WG/GP leadership pull alert, it always seemed a little protectionist to me, but then again apparently you can fail an NSI as a WG/CC and still go on to be a general officer. Point taken..but when either of the above board an aircraft in a flying wing, it is more often than not a giant rectal pain/dog and pony show...exceptions abound, but usually it's more of an instructor over watch exercise vs the look at me I'm your leader and I'm an airborne wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyinGrunt Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 From my time at VBG and much of what I've learned from 13N/13S types since, I think I know some of the stuff I'd do. I would insist on the following, though: 1. Complete authority on hire/fire. I'd need some missile experience to help me lead while I was getting spun up, but if that experience was unwilling to share my vision or blatantly insubordinate, I would make my DO a snacko if that's what it took. 2. I get to finish my tour as a Sq/CC, barring any UCMJ/gross misconduct/past nuclear scandals. In other words, I'm gonna establish the metrics by which I judge my crewmembers, and the OG and WG can't fire me because I don't comply with their toxic culture of "100% or you're fired." 3. I get to hand-pick my successor. 4. 3 years at the missile wing, tops. My last shreds of idealism only go so far. I think this can be fixed. It will absolutely take a bloody purge, outsiders coming in, and leading from the front in a style that may not have been seen since Robin Olds led the Wolfpack, but it can be fixed. And Loco . . . I generally agree that most OG and Wg/CC types need a seeing-eye IP, but there are some notable exceptions. The SOG/CV at CVS, for example . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElLoco Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 From my time at VBG and much of what I've learned from 13N/13S types since, I think I know some of the stuff I'd do. I would insist on the following, though: 1. Complete authority on hire/fire. I'd need some missile experience to help me lead while I was getting spun up, but if that experience was unwilling to share my vision or blatantly insubordinate, I would make my DO a snacko if that's what it took. 2. I get to finish my tour as a Sq/CC, barring any UCMJ/gross misconduct/past nuclear scandals. In other words, I'm gonna establish the metrics by which I judge my crewmembers, and the OG and WG can't fire me because I don't comply with their toxic culture of "100% or you're fired." 3. I get to hand-pick my successor. 4. 3 years at the missile wing, tops. My last shreds of idealism only go so far. I think this can be fixed. It will absolutely take a bloody purge, outsiders coming in, and leading from the front in a style that may not have been seen since Robin Olds led the Wolfpack, but it can be fixed. And Loco . . . I generally agree that most OG and Wg/CC types need a seeing-eye IP, but there are some notable exceptions. The SOG/CV at CVS, for example . . . Absolutely...not universal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram02 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Point taken..but when either of the above board an aircraft in a flying wing, it is more often than not a giant rectal pain/dog and pony show...exceptions abound, but usually it's more of an instructor over watch exercise vs the look at me I'm your leader and I'm an airborne wonder. True, and I'm familiar as well with the dog/pony show having crosstrained into ABM after a missile tour, but the heart of the matter is that in a flying wing the GP/WG leadership still has some "skin in the game," so to speak. By insulating the GP/WG leadership at a missile wing from alert duty, it creates an "us vs. them" environment where to an average crewdog it seems that higher echelons of leadership are deliberately shielded from risk and can in fact still get promoted for things that anyone else would get hammered for (e.g. I miss one question on my monthly test and I get reamed by the DO but the WG/CC can fail a nuclear surety inspection and still make general officer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetfreezer Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Point taken..but when either of the above board an aircraft in a flying wing, it is more often than not a giant rectal pain/dog and pony show...exceptions abound, but usually it's more of an instructor over watch exercise vs the look at me I'm your leader and I'm an airborne wonder. Depends on the MDS... our O-6s are IPs/EPs and even fly FLUG upgrades/checkrides occasionally. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElLoco Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Depends on the MDS... our O-6s are IPs/EPs and even fly FLUG upgrades/checkrides occasionally. Also true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xaarman Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Which I never understood as a line guy. In a flying wing, the WG/CC and OG/CC still fly, so in a missile wing, why don't they pull alert? To me, the ultimate mark of credibility would have been for the WG/CC or OG/CC to pull an alert every now and then and demonstrate some actual leadership in the field instead of simply making motivational speeches at pre-D (And what if they were actually ACP/SCP qualified? Imagine that, an OG/CC pulling alert at an ACP, actually leading his OG). By not having WG/GP leadership pull alert, it always seemed a little protectionist to me, but then again apparently you can fail an NSI as a WG/CC and still go on to be a general officer.They fly so they can get flight pay :)Actually, if they do give Missileers incentive pay, make it tied to pulling alert like flight pay. That would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cave_Pilot Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Actually, if they do give Missileers incentive pay, make it tied to pulling alert like flight pay. That would be awesome. I'm not a huge fan of incentive pay, because the problems we're having right now aren't happening because we aren't getting paid enough. That said, if they give us incentive pay, they need to give it to everyone in the missile field. At least I'm getting officer pay for doing a job that sucks - the 19 year old cop patrolling a concrete pad at 2AM in -20 windchill because the security system won't reset, is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertschu Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I would do this. It sounds like a great (if not monumental) challenge. I would not know where to start, I am certain my functional would get a good laugh out of it though. Bendy If only Senior Raters kept a spreadsheet of who would be willing and able to take on monumental, albeit sh!tty, leadership challenges rather than %PME complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABoom Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Pay is not the problem. Why does the AF think that they can solve all problems by throwing more money at them??? It might make the numbers on some metric look better, but it just keeps the wrong people in the AF. Hence the majority of the problems we suffer from today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertschu Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Would this be the same rated leadership that bans morale patches and Friday shirts, requires reflective belt wear and empowers chiefs to parade around as uniform police? Not sure that will help. Yeah, interesting that the prevailing thought among rated officers is that that rated officers are capable of leading everywhere except in flying units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Looking at the way, way back machine, you will find that the leadership for missile wings was rated guys until, roughly, the mid-1980s. Even then it took until the late 1980s to flush them all. And guess what, things were the same then as well. In SAC days, the on-alert rate was everything. All was sacrificed for that goal because you did NOT want to be getting the direct call from CINCSAC to WG/CC Snuffy asking "WTF?" Very short career spans resulted. And the rated guys begat the leadership by "I see nothing." Greatest operators in the field counted for sh1t. Fantabulous test-takers/Xmas party planners got the only visibility because once you close the blast door, as long as nothing goes 'boom,' or nobody gets killed on your alert, you are all the same. Making a name for yourself as the cunning EWO instructor with your BS trick tests made you BTZ material and showed just how "stupid" the line doggies were because a 95% is garbage (Say, why is the minimum a 90% then). You could count on a chat with at least your Sq/CC, good chance of the DO (now OG)/CC, and potentially, the WG/CC. For missing one test question. And the hits look like they keep coming for today's generation pulling alert without even a Soviet threat to somewhat make it plausible. I still expect this Administration to sh1tcan ICBMs. This is just lighter fluid for the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xaarman Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Cut ICBMs, cut associated personnel at the three bases, and the AF has have solved it's downsizing problem! I kid I kid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Withholding commentary, on the grounds that we've all been warned to avoid doing so in public. Funny...AF Times always finds that one officer willing to talk without permission. Even if the culture is directed to change by HAF/OSD, I'm not sure it will stick. One of the issues in the missile community is how to differentiate and stratify the CGOs. They go out on alert, they don't fuck anything up, they go home. Everybody looks the exact same on paper, and there is no working interaction with leadership for them to evaluate you. So how do you stand out? You can be fortunate enough to have some emergency happen while you're on alert. There's a joke about crews setting their own capsules on fire to win crew of the qtr. You can also stab your peers in the back by identifying things they did wrong, which is incredibly common. The quickest way to ruin your chances of ever moving to OSS/OGV or having a good follow-on assignment are bombing an eval or having a crappy EWO test. Since everyone can get a 100% on a straightforward test, they make them tricky to help thin the population. In turn, people cheat to stay competitive, and the cycle feeds itself. I'm afraid this is so engrained in all levels of the community that changing the culture would be futile. For their sake, I hope I'm wrong. Master's and PME? Fire all the 13N leadership, replace with rated leadership to change the culture, reverse brainwash young CGO's and FGO's. Any O-6+ 13N is too far along in their mindset to be saved and should be taken out of command. It's almost like a Rage virus, you'll have to see who's infected and who's not. This is going to be as painful, if not worse, than the Shaw scandal that spawned all the Witch hints for "questionable" material. We do have quite an overage of 11Ms. At least, according to the RIF matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akele Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Rumor has it that the SECDEF got all the numbers to the capsules and are calling crew dogs directly to ask them how things are going. That would be a fun phone call to take... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cave_Pilot Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Funny...AF Times always finds that one officer willing to talk without permission. I keep seeing former missileers (including one that I know personally) quoted in articles here and there. Look, I get that you're out of the Air Force and speaking out without fear of retribution is awfully tempting, but spare a thought for the people who are still in and whose lives are going to get worse because you did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Rumor has it that the SECDEF got all the numbers to the capsules and are calling crew dogs directly to ask them how things are going. That would be a fun phone call to take... http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140202/NEWS05/302020002/SecDef-Hagel-calls-nuclear-officers-Malmstrom-bunkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Rumor has it that the SECDEF got all the numbers to the capsules and are calling crew dogs directly to ask them how things are going. That would be a fun phone call to take... No; that would be awesome, if you deserve to wear your rank on your shoulders. SECDEF jumped the chain of command*, not the 1Lt sitting in a hole in Montana. Sounds like a free shot to tell it like it is. *Which is his right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akele Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Isn't half the stuff the Air Force Times publishes based off rumor? ;-) Thanks for the link. Guess that's where the guys I heard it from got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GKinnear Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) http://bigstory.ap.org/article/navy-probing-alleged-cheating-nuke-reactor-work Not just the AF Nuke force with a cheating scandal. This doesn't directly involve weapons, but still... Edited February 4, 2014 by GKinnear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Isn't half the stuff the Air Force Times publishes based off rumor? ;-) Thanks for the link. Guess that's where the guys I heard it from got it. What are you new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akele Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Just pulled a stat out of thin air…just like it appears the peeps at A1 and AFPC did with all these manning matrixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Just pulled a stat out of thin air…just like it appears the peeps at A1 and AFPC did with all these manning matrixes. Your estimated stats are generous to say the least. It's not called the Air Force Enquirer for nothing. Also, matrices. You're welcome Edited February 6, 2014 by Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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