Rusty Pipes Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Great conversation here that I don't want to derail, but just wanted to throw this info out there just as an FYI... I know several folks who were waiting on notification for Summer cycle PCSs that got their AMS Robot assignment notifications today. I know many were speculating that these may be held back and that it possibly had to do with this whole Force Shaping mess, but I know at least some are being notified and it is right on schedule with the AFPC timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Holy condescending, batman! I think you missed the point of his comment. Or maybe you didn't but just want to pretend you did. I think that's in the AFI on AF leadership. His point was not that he was personally offended that HIS question wants taken. Rather, it's that our fearless managers don't have the stones to allow their people to ask honest questions that a significant percentage of us are trying to get answers for. The ideas of integrity, excellence, and service (service runs in both directions, not just up the chain) once again stops at the O-4/E-6 level. I apologize in advance for what seems like a vitriol-laden response. I can't stand intellectual dishonesty. Liquid, if you honestly believed that his point was that he was sad for not getting called on, then I retract my statements at you but defend my overall point. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Lighten up Francis. For every example of spineless managers "controlling the questions" so they don't look bad or embarrass the DV, there are equal examples of unfiltered access. Sometimes it is actually the DV that determines the types of questions and the forum, particularly the political appointees. This batch of current leaders, from CSAF to USecAF to SecAF to MAJCOM CCs and CCCs are very open to honest feedback and frank questions in open forums. My smart ass response was appropriate due to the absurdity of threatening resigning commissions and slapping down wings. I spent much more time answering his actual question than arguing about dishonest leaders filtering messages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I hear you. Cutting Ripits is on my long list. Hang in there. Come on... cut me some slack. For the record when I joined I never planned on wanting to get out early. I totally 100% bought into the blue. I'm not sure I'd call myself a kool-aid drinker, but I was damn near close to it. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine I'd want out of the organization I fought so hard to get into and admired for so many years. For me, the biggest disappointment.... is this organization not being what I thought it was when I joined. In the end we'll all be fine and most of us will go on to have successful careers in civilian aviation, but that's not what I grew up dreaming about. I never wanted to tell my grandson about my third leg into LAX flying my Delta jet... I always wanted to tell him about this awesome organization I got the chance to serve and help make this world a better place. I have had the chance to do some really great things over the past 7 years and wouldn't trade them for the world, but unfortunately for me the bad FAR outweighs the good. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I think that is a little harsh, Liquid. I'm quite sure FLY was venting about resigning his commission, but you are completely glossing over or missing the fact that what happened to him is pretty much the standard. The CSAF was supposed to come visit our Agency in the past year (he had to canx a week prior though) and the senior Air Force O-6 here sent out an e-mail to all AF members in the Agency mandating each of us submit one question to him to be asked to the Boss for him to review. He was then going to select the questions to be asked and by whom... this too was supposed to be a Town Hall type forum at the request of Gen Welsh. I would be willing to bet my entire career's pay that this was not the intent of the Boss. You agreed to my post above that managers need to be replaced with Leaders and this may have to be the result of the Boss handing out a few pink slips... this guy (and others like him) are EXACTLY what I am talking about. If I were CSAF or SECAF I would be furious if I knew my Town Hall open Q & A forums were being undermined by these middle managers. You have done a good job on here explaining the intent of the Boss and trying to pass on his message... you have also suggested or alluded to the fact that you have some access to him and are passing on some of the constructive messages from this forum. Please pass on to him that this exact thing is happening to him and his boss... I certainly won't speak for anyone else, but I'm sure plenty of folks on here could chime in with almost identical stories. Forward that email to CSAF. I agree, this is probably not his intent. I've never seen filtered and approved questions, but I don't doubt it happens. It shouldn't. Thanks for the feedback Come on... cut me some slack. For the record when I joined I never planned on wanting to get out early. I totally 100% bought into the blue. I'm not sure I'd call myself a kool-aid drinker, but I was damn near close to it. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine I'd want out of the organization I fought so hard to get into and admired for so many years. For me, the biggest disappointment.... is this organization not being what I thought it was when I joined. In the end we'll all be fine and most of us will go on to have successful careers in civilian aviation, but that's not what I grew up dreaming about. I never wanted to tell my grandson about my third leg into LAX flying my Delta jet... I always wanted to tell him about this awesome organization I got the chance to serve and help make this world a better place. I have had the chance to do some really great things over the past 7 years and wouldn't trade them for the world, but unfortunately for me the bad FAR outweighs the good. Sorry dude, no sarcasm intended. I am actually pissed about the Ripits, I live on caffeine. I really do hear you and appreciate the frustration. For me the good has always outweighed the bad, but the bad needs to be directly addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnkr Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 For every example of spineless managers "controlling the questions" so they don't look bad or embarrass the DV, there are equal examples of unfiltered access. Your right. I shouldn't get so butt hurt when people obfuscate. Let's put the part of your response I quoted to the test. There's a lot of current and former AF folks here. I'd love to get some real world examples of senior leader events (three stars or higher) of an open and honest questioning in an open forum. I can think of three times this wasn't true for me and zero where it was open to real questions. Roche at Mildenhall, and two 3 stars that spoke at SOS. One might have been ASBC. My memory for PME is short. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Sorry dude, no sarcasm intended. I am actually pissed about the Ripits, I live on caffeine. I really do hear you and appreciate the frustration. For me the good has always outweighed the bad, but the bad needs to be directly addressed. No offense taken. It's refreshing to see senior guys like yourself on here seeking out honest feedback and trying to get a true climate assessment of how things are in our Air Force. I got a really good vibe from the SECAF and I haven't seen the Chief of Staff speak, but everything I have read about him makes him seem like an awesome guy and a great leader. I am glad they want to know what those of us at the bottom think... now if we can just get that information to them then I think they can actually make some progress. I was shocked to hear that it took weeks for some of this information to reach Welsh and it took someone asking a question at a Town Hall meeting in Altus held by him to get him that message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Liquid, A lot of us just want honesty from Sr leaders. Airmen's careers have been in limbo and life/family plans put on hold since December. This may not bother you but it affects many of us. When leaders put on a town hall meeting with the SECAF, you would expect an open forum to address concerns and not another dog and pony show with hand picked questioners. I am sorry if this doesn't bother you. But this is a part of the reason why many of the CGOs are so jaded and are looking to bail. Your response to the FMP is great. if it's legit, why is it only available to certain individuals? Sorry Panch, I don't know what you are asking. Why isn't what available? I don't work in HAF or AFPC so I don't really know why they are handling this so poorly. I understand the funding aspects. Unfortunately, programming specifics are mostly FOUO or classified and not appropriate for forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaco Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Gen Welsh came to the 138th FW (Tulsa ANG) on March 7th. He did an all-call and a pilots-only town hall for about 45 minutes. A few days prior, our WG/CC told us "The general does not want softball questions. Ask him the tough ones." There were no preselected questions, no pre-approval, nada. And guess what? Everyone was professional, asked tough questions, and got honest answers from CSAF. +100 morale points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim richalds Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 2, he is an awesome motivational speaker and seems like a genuinely solid dude. This is why many of us hoped this round of cuts was going to go more smoothly than the last. There is still time to recover but it seems like AFPC is in a flat spin headed out to sea right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vprdrvr69 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Come on... cut me some slack. For the record when I joined I never planned on wanting to get out early. I totally 100% bought into the blue. I'm not sure I'd call myself a kool-aid drinker, but I was damn near close to it. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine I'd want out of the organization I fought so hard to get into and admired for so many years. For me, the biggest disappointment.... is this organization not being what I thought it was when I joined. In the end we'll all be fine and most of us will go on to have successful careers in civilian aviation, but that's not what I grew up dreaming about. I never wanted to tell my grandson about my third leg into LAX flying my Delta jet... I always wanted to tell him about this awesome organization I got the chance to serve and help make this world a better place. I have had the chance to do some really great things over the past 7 years and wouldn't trade them for the world, but unfortunately for me the bad FAR outweighs the good. 2!!! Sadly, and all kidding aside, I just submitted an application with Delta yesterday. No where near as exciting as the day I dropped my app for OTS. Times sure change, don't they? Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) 2!!! Sadly, and all kidding aside, I just submitted an application with Delta yesterday. No where near as exciting as the day I dropped my app for OTS. Times sure change, don't they? Sad. Agreed. I will apply to the Majors/Legacy's also if I get approved for the VSP, but I may be a little short on the Total Time right now so I may have to spend a year or two at the Regional's to build that time. What's sad is that I am so unhappy with the current state of the Air Force that I am willing to take a 75% paycut and go fly for the Regional's just to get off AD. The one thing I have going for me is that I was a prior FAIP so the majority of my time is TPIC so I just need to build that Total Time to be competitive for a Legacy. Edited March 18, 2014 by FLY6584 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim richalds Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Always look out for yourself in regards to PIC time . Never log other time if you don't have to. If leadership gives you a hassle about making sure you get all the time you can, it's probably because they are also setting themselves up for good contracting jobs after they retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Forward that email to CSAF. I agree, this is probably not his intent. I've never seen filtered and approved questions, but I don't doubt it happens. It shouldn't. Thanks for the feedbackAlive and well in AMC: Each squadron needs to submit 1 question (and have someone ready to ask it) for Lt Gen McDew's All Call. There will be the opportunity to ask more questions, but the wing wants to ensure that there will be at least 4 from each group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrunkMonkey Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 AFPC is doing something with the TERA right now. My TERA moved to FM-Validation Complete yesterday and then today the title of my "Incident" moved from 'Retirement Request' to '//RETIRE IN LOWER GRD//Retirement Request' (which makes sense since I do not have TIG to retire as a Lt Col). Is it a light at the end of the tunnel or ... just the train? Caveats: 11M w/15 years service, just pinned on Lt Col a month ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 You applied for TERA knowing you were going to pin on Lt Col? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrunkMonkey Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Yes. The Air Force and I rarely see eye-to-eye and it was time to part ways amicably with all the benefits (although 37% vice 50% hurts a little). That's a fancy way of saying the family is ready to settle down in one spot. The job market is pretty good outside for me right now so that helped the decision a lot. It is a little bitter sweet to make rank and then just retire but it is the right time for me to get out. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Yes. The Air Force and I rarely see eye-to-eye and it was time to part ways amicably with all the benefits (although 37% vice 50% hurts a little). That's a fancy way of saying the family is ready to settle down in one spot. The job market is pretty good outside for me right now so that helped the decision a lot. It is a little bitter sweet to make rank and then just retire but it is the right time for me to get out.Good luck, and thanks for your service!Although it does make me sad to see the AF meat grinder push people to make decisions like this. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altus Barbarosa Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Yes. The Air Force and I rarely see eye-to-eye and it was time to part ways amicably with all the benefits (although 37% vice 50% hurts a little). That's a fancy way of saying the family is ready to settle down in one spot. The job market is pretty good outside for me right now so that helped the decision a lot. It is a little bitter sweet to make rank and then just retire but it is the right time for me to get out. Same here, except the Lt Col part. They need to pull the trigger though. I've got a job waiting in the wings and it's a real pisser not being able to give them a firm start date. One thing that's unclear though. I know they waived the 120 day lead time to apply for retirement, but are they going to enforce the 120day lead time required before starting PTDY/Terminal? I've got 93 days of leave and that would put me into the last week of April just to start terminal, let alone another 20days permissive which would basically lay me down in like 3 weeks or so. I can't imagine they are going to be able to enforce the 120days for TERA guys with the compressed timeframes we will be operating in. Most of us got eligibility approved at the end of Jan, which puts us at the end of May for the 120 days. I'm trying to start work on day 1 and draw 2 pay checks for 3 months. If I have to wait until 30 May or whatever to start the new job that will cost me a bunch of money and force me to sit around staring at my computer screen for another 2 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catbox Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 AFPC is doing something with the TERA right now. My TERA moved to FM-Validation Complete yesterday and then today the title of my "Incident" moved from 'Retirement Request' to '//RETIRE IN LOWER GRD//Retirement Request' (which makes sense since I do not have TIG to retire as a Lt Col). Is it a light at the end of the tunnel or ... just the train? Caveats: 11M w/15 years service, just pinned on Lt Col a month ago Congrats man...good to see some movement on this finally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chizz Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) I just sat through the biggest clown show I have yet to see in the Air Force. The SECAF just visited our deployed location today to speak with us and answer questions that were on the minds of our Airmen. Just prior to the speech the senior leaders said they had 10 individuals in the crowd with pre-planned questions to insure there wouldn't be any "silence" when asked for volunteers, but that we were all encouraged to ask anything we wanted. I had come to the speech with a question prepared that explained that according to AFPC, 2563 pilots from the 2005-2008 year groups were eligible for the RIF/VSP with a reported overage of 415 pilots, but that many of us had applied and had been denied due to our ADSC's and that they were currently seeking SECAF approval to waive those ADSC's. I just wanted to ask if she planned on waiving those ADSC's and if those of us that have been denied should reapply as the 1 May deadline is fast approaching. Quite possibly the most appropriate question for the SECAF who just got done speaking about force shaping, current overages, and people being her number one priority in her speech. Well the people with the microphones only called on 4 people that had pre-planned questions and then we were told there was not enough time for anymore questions. I had raised my hand every single time as high as I possibly could and made direct eye contact with the people with microphones, but was ignored every single time. They asked questions about sexual assault, the future of our deployed location, and a couple other things that absolutely no one in the room cared about. I have never been more disappointed with this organization. If I could resign my commission and turn my wings in today I would. All i hear is an excuse that you didn't show the big guns you claimed you were going to brandish. Way to let us all down. Go shack yourself! ;) Reminds me of a briefing several years ago by some 2-star at AMC: he asked for questions and after some silence, a flight engineer stood up and asked "Sir, why do we fly around empty (or with only a few pallets) on so many cargo missions?" The answer: "We don't." The engineer then said, "Sir, I have all my paperwork for the last year of missions and I'd be happy to show you all the missions where we had active legs without cargo." "Next question, please." I think that was the same briefing as the infamous "those of us on O&M don't have the money to buy TP to wipe our own asses but the TWCF squadrons have new computers, uniforms, boots, etc." I don't think I ever applauded a question that hard before or after. Three holer, you were at Travis? That was hilarious when RM said, "sir, we are about to go Non mission capable due to funding!! And we need TP too!" Our sq/cc pulled us all in and was like, while I admire your passion for the subject, in no way are we close to Non mission capable. Just goes to show how they are so unwilling to call the baby ugly. Or when a short notice TACC tasking comes down and of course we aren't going to say no...god forbid! Call that guy in on leave, I don't care but don't negative reply to that tasking because I don't want the other sq to get it...or even worse, the reserves!!!! Man just playing catch up and you guys get butt hurt easily! If you are going to post something on here have the thick skin to take some licks and its not necessary for the three musketeers to come running to your aid when you get your PP schwacked for what seems like a ridiculous comment, even if someone takes it the wrong way. It's the INTERNET for gods sake. And FLY6584, everyone changes their mind and that is their right but don't say I was going to be 100% big blue but only drink half the cool aid, stop dangling one foot in. Do what you want, for the right reason, but go all in dude. Edited March 19, 2014 by chizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-21.Pilot Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Guess what I found today: The email for the SECAF.... The email for the CSAF.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 You would resign your commission because you weren't called on to ask a question? Holy shit. You must lose your mind when they are out of mint chocolate chip at the DFAC. Here is the answer she would have probably given you if you hadn't been so disrespected, dishonored, abused and embarrassed that your hand was raised so high but you weren't picked: We have not approved ADSC waivers yet because we want to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars and protect the investment we have made into training and readiness. We did not want to specifically exclude VSP options for those with ADSCs because we may have the opportunity to match the needs of the Air Force (reducing pilots in certain aircraft in certain year groups to meet budget targets) with an individual's desire to separate prior to finishing the terms of the ADSC they agreed to. We were surprised by the feedback from commanders that described the high cost to readiness and training that releasing 415 to 2563 pilots early would have. We probably should have asked the commanders before releasing the eligibility matrix but we wanted to make as many people as possible aware that we were planning on cutting up to 25,000 people in FY14. We are conducting the analysis now to determine how to best balance our fiscal challenges, maintain readiness, and give people enough time to plan for an earlier than expected transition from active duty. We have struggled with this due to NDAA language, congressional inquiries, a larger than expected AF top line in the president's budget and bad weather in the DC area. I recommend you reapply for TSP and be patient with us as we get through these challenging times. Thank you for serving your nation in the world's greatest Air Force. Next question. Then say that at the beginning of the whole process, rather than tell the force that senior leadership wants to use voluntary measures before resorting to involuntary ones. Because this statement has point-blank forced AFPC to involuntarily separate those 415 pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Some of the psdm's for enlisted fmp were updated today. Nothing for officers. Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 A town hall meetings with the SECAF and a two-star general isn't all it's cracked up to be. The SECAF and the 20 AF/CC came to Malmstrom in Feb in the wake of the cheating scandal. They held an all call and force modernization was mentioned as one of the future AF challenges. One of our pilots asked a question regarding the modernization of our 40+ year old helicopter. Exact response is as follows: SECAF: I'm sorry what do you fly? Pilot: The UH-1N Huey SECAF: I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that aircraft. (Proceeds to talk about CRH) 20 AF/CC: Don't ask questions with acronyms that people don't know. (Then proceeds to talk about a previous question) This was while on a road trip to AFGSC missile bases where there are only two types of MDS's; ICBMs and Huey's. She instantly lost credibility with every pilot in the room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim richalds Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 She's a political appointee from a military-gutting liberal, I don't expect her to be able to vis recce every plane in the fleet, but she should at least know how to quickly dispose of 25k people 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now