Sanctuary

[HossHarris]

Gents--

Approaching a decision in a few short years and wanted to get the correct answers without derailing other threads.

I've looked through the separations AFI, and the best I can make of that nightmare of tables and notes is 12 months max time from telling big blue no on an assignment or TDY.

I keep hearing about sanctuary at 18 yrs. how does it work? What is the reference/source document? (since if it becomes an issue I will undoubtedly have to learn how to do a personnelist's job in intimate detail)

[Cap-10]

I started here looking at Title 10, paragraph 12646: Commissioned officers: retention of after completing 18 or more, but less than 20, years of service.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2006-title10/pdf/USCODE-2006-title10-subtitleE-partII-chap1219-sec12646.pdf

Cheers,

Cap-10

[JarheadBoom]

I keep hearing about sanctuary at 18 yrs. how does it work? What is the reference/source document? (since if it becomes an issue I will undoubtedly have to learn how to do a personnelist's job in intimate detail)

We've had several pilots from my SQ and the SQ down the hall claim sanctuary over the past few years. Judging by their comments, you will definitely have to learn the personnelist's job (and the appropriate regs) better than them.

[HossHarris]

I started here looking at Title 10, paragraph 12646: Commissioned officers: retention of after completing 18 or more, but less than 20, years of service.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2006-title10/pdf/USCODE-2006-title10-subtitleE-partII-chap1219-sec12646.pdf

Cheers,

Cap-10

All good stuff, but it extensively mentions "reserve commissioned" officers. I was originally a reserve commission officer, but I'm 99.69% sure it became a regular commission when I pinned on major (or maybe captain).

Any standard 1 each active duty line officers have recent experience or knowledge with the sanctuary gig?

[matmacwc]

I thought sanctuary only involved the ANG or Reserve!?! Mostly because we go on/off orders so often, AD is always on orders.

[discus]

I would be very curious about this as well as I am over my 18 year mark. Does this mean I can tell big blue to go play a game of "hide and go fuck yourself" if I get a 365 to the Died?

[Recut]

All good stuff, but it extensively mentions "reserve commissioned" officers. I was originally a reserve commission officer, but I'm 99.69% sure it became a regular commission when I pinned on major (or maybe captain). Any standard 1 each active duty line officers have recent experience or knowledge with the sanctuary gig?

I don't remember what year it was but the AF got rid of reserve commissions altogether and now all AD officers are regular. My commissioning papers state "reserve" because I was ROTC-- but now, no officer on AD (not sure, but probably except for guard reserve dudes on AD orders) is a reserve officer.

As far as sanctuary goes, I would say the title 10 just hasn't been updated to reflect the fact AF AD officers don't hold reserve commissions anymore. I think the key text of title 10 is that it states, "An officer who is retained in an active status under subsection (a) or (b) is an additional number to those otherwise authorized" We've all learned about congressional end strength the past few years........ which is why I think that text is key - regardless of end strength, an officer in this situation cannot be booted because of end strength.

Subsection (a) and (b) basically say that the officer cannot be taken off of active duty without his consent after 18 yrs until he hits 20 yrs (letting him retire)

Obviously, it's a legal document and maybe there's some lawyers lurking that can decipher all of the "fine print". Overall, however, I think it is pretty clear that as long as an officer hits 18 years and doesn't F up, that officer gets to retire regardless of AF "force shaping" or whatever is going on at the time.

I would be very curious about this as well as I am over my 18 year mark. Does this mean I can tell big blue to go play a game of "hide and go ###### yourself" if I get a 365 to the Died?

Doubtful. You would have to choose between retiring and 7-day opting in that case. Edit: by deciding to retire you'd have to do the 365 in this scenario.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Recut

[HossHarris]

I don't remember what year it was but the AF got rid of reserve commissions altogether and now all AD officers are regular. My commissioning papers state "reserve" because I was ROTC-- but now, no officer on AD (not sure, but probably except for guard reserve dudes on AD orders) is a reserve officer.

As far as sanctuary goes, I would say the title 10 just hasn't been updated to reflect the fact AF AD officers don't hold reserve commissions anymore. I think the key text of title 10 is that it states, "An officer who is retained in an active status under subsection (a) or (b) is an additional number to those otherwise authorized" We've all learned about congressional end strength the past few years........ which is why I think that text is key - regardless of end strength, an officer in this situation cannot be booted because of end strength.

Subsection (a) and (b) basically say that the officer cannot be taken off of active duty without his consent after 18 yrs until he hits 20 yrs (letting him retire)

Obviously, it's a legal document and maybe there's some lawyers lurking that can decipher all of the "fine print". Overall, however, I think it is pretty clear that as long as an officer hits 18 years and doesn't F up, that officer gets to retire regardless of AF "force shaping" or whatever is going on at the time.

Doubtful. You would have to choose between retiring and 7-day opting in that case. Edit: by deciding to retire you'd have to do the 365 in this scenario.

By the 3-day option rules in the nightmare separations/assignments AFI, if you 3-day opt a 365 you have to set a date of separation that is at most 7-12 months in the future, depending on how far along you are.

[discus]

Humm. So a little less than a year to go until I am truly safe. Time to make the countdown clock on the desktop!

[Herk Driver]

By the 3-day option rules in the nightmare separations/assignments AFI, if you 3-day opt a 365 you have to set a date of separation that is at most 7-12 months in the future, depending on how far along you are.

Unless you are retiring in lieu of the assignment and then the rules are slightly different. You can 7-day or 3-day opt and assignment/365 and retire in lieu of if you do not have and are unwilling to obtain retainability. Of course, the ADSC or retainability issues can be waived. For example, you receive orders to CONUS base x which requires a 2 year ADSC. If you have 22 mos left til retirement you can 7-day opt the assignment and submit retirement papers. Seen it happen...was not easy due to no one at the MPF knowing what the hell the AFI says.

Edit: after reviewing a few things, if you do not have retainability but your ADSC expires before the new assignments ADSC then you can retire and the 12 month window applies to the 7-day opt. If greater than 12 months then you have to request an exception to policy which is what this guy did and was approved.

Applicable AFI 36-2110 para 2.30.2.2.4

Edited July 20, 2013 by Herk Driver

[Kikuchiyo]

"Sanctuary" is a Reserve Component (ARC = AFRC + ANG) thing. The Reserve Component and having a Reserve Commision are NOT one and the same. If an AFI refers to officers in the Reserve Compnent, it means the ARC, and does NOT mean AD officers holding a reserve commision. (edited per Tulsa's correction below)

Sanctuary is covered in AFI 36-2131, ADMINISTRATION OF SANCTUARY IN THE AIR RESERVE COMPONENTS.

Sanctuary does not apply to AD officers with the excepmtion of those ARC officers recalled to AD under certain specific programs like the Rated Officer Recall of 2009, among others You'd know if you were special enough to have it apply to you.

The jist of sanctuary is to protect ARC officers from getting very close to earning a full 20 year retirement and then having their orders terminated in order to prevent them from earning the AD retirement. Remember, an ARC retirement means they do not collect a retirement check till they turn 60(?), but an AD retirement means they collect a check the very next month after retiring.

Basically, if an ARC officer is given orders that will take him to a point where he will have earned over 18 years towards an AD retirement, he must be allowed to stay on AD oders until reaching 20. An example from the Rated Recall of 2009: Reservist Major X had just over 16 years towards an AD retirement (from previous AD service plus activations & deployments). He takes 2-year recall orders. Once he hits 18 years towards his AD retirement, the AF cannot terminate his orders, even thouugh they were cut to expire in two years, and must cut him extension orders under the Sanctuary rules out to 20 years.

And I think (more research required), that Recut may have it backwards. I'm pretty sure that all officers are given Reserve commisions now, with Regular commisions coming at promotion to Major. I thought it was in the mid- or late-90's that they switched it to all Reserve commisions. I could be wrong about this part, though.

//edited to eliminate my error, as pointed out and with reference provided by Tulsa below.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Kikuchiyo

[Tulsa]

Useful words

Great understanding of it on the ARC level, however we are all Regular commissioned officers since 2006. Why we still had reserve versus regular officers up until then is mind boggling. You have to go back to WW2 to understand why the process was in place in the first place.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123015935

Attack!

[DUNBAR]

Gents--

Approaching a decision in a few short years and wanted to get the correct answers without derailing other threads.

I've looked through the separations AFI, and the best I can make of that nightmare of tables and notes is 12 months max time from telling big blue no on an assignment or TDY.

I keep hearing about sanctuary at 18 yrs. how does it work? What is the reference/source document? (since if it becomes an issue I will undoubtedly have to learn how to do a personnelist's job in intimate detail)

/edits for autocorrect goodness

//saw the old guard thread, really looking for AD info/references

///slashes

Have you been through AFI 36-2110, "Assignments", table 2.9? You'll need 2 aspirins, 3 decoder rings and a stiff drink but it's a pretty good starting point.

[brickhistory]

Have seen Big Blue non-vol folks for 365s even when they had less than 365 remaining. Mid-90s drawdown, pilot feet on the ramp fiasco: "Here Mr. former F-16 driver, here's your remote."

"But, I'm less than 365 left in service."

"Here's your 250 day orders."

Big Blue can and will waiver anything to meet its needs.

[Chida]

Sanctuary, colloquially, refers to a regular or reserve officer/enlisted getting 18 years of active duty service (TAFMS). Once he hits 18 years TAFMS, he must be allowed to go to at least 20 years TAFMS, barring misconduct or other adverse happenings which were under the officer's control. Before 18 years, the AF can dismiss with separation pay for any number of administrative reasons, such as meeting end strength numbers, for example. We saw this with the 157 majors who were surprised last year. Those 2x passed over majors who did not get continuation and did not have at least 18 years were shown the door with separation pay. Those who were 2x passed over and had at least 18 years TAFMS as of their mandatory separation date were continued. I've seen this happen with a 2x passed over Captain who skated in just under the wire because he had a bunch of prior enlisted time.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Chida

[Chida]

Additionally, I don't think you'll find any reference other than title 10 (and the service regs/AFI's). The idea that sanctuary is ONLY for reserves may be spelled out in the law, but practically it doesn't remain so. As soon as someone would be discharged from regular status at 18 years, he would enter reserve status (as a result of receiving separation pay which requires 3 years in the IRR) and therefore be entitled to sanctuary and be returned to active duty. So as a matter of policy (apparently standard practice) the services cut out all the unnecessary paperwork and do not discharge regulars with at least 18 years TAFMS.

[Recut]

I always thought it applied to active duty, too. Couldn't find anything other than title 10 as mentioned ^

Has the AF ever anyone heard of someone booted someone at 18 for simply not getting promoted (no UCMJ etc issues)?

Edited July 21, 2013 by Recut

[Kikuchiyo]

Additionally, I don't think you'll find any reference other than title 10 (and the service regs/AFI's). The idea that sanctuary is ONLY for reserves may be spelled out in the law, but practically it doesn't remain so. As soon as someone would be discharged from regular status at 18 years, he would enter reserve status (as a result of receiving separation pay which requires 3 years in the IRR) and therefore be entitled to sanctuary and be returned to active duty. So as a matter of policy (apparently standard practice) the services cut out all the unnecessary paperwork and do not discharge regulars with at least 18 years TAFMS.

That would explain why it was my understanding that it was "only" an ARC deal. And the reason there's no reference to it in the AD personnel regs. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[HossHarris]

So here's my understanding of things ... And someone with experience please chime in if there's more to add!

Past 18 you cannot be kicked out without cause. You cannot be RIF'd, seperated for end-strength numbers, etc.

HOWEVER, you can quit ... Either on purpose or unknowingly.

Based on the chart of doom from the AFI, if you 3-day opt a 365 you have to set a seperation date that is, at most, 12-months in the future.

So if you 3-day opt a 365 at the 18 year point (assuming you have the retainability, TOS wickets, etc to be selected for a 365 in the first place) you are, in effect, unknowingly volunteering to quit at 19 years.

If anyone has any actual experience in this situation, please chime in.

[itsokimapilot]

The most recent RIF did not look at officers with more than 15 years of service.

Hoss I believe you're correct in reference to the 365.

My personal experience. I was handed an assignment at 18.5 years. Since the ADSC took me beyond 20 they couldn't make me take the assignment. This wasn't spelled out on the RIP. there was an alpha numeric code that the personnelist recognized as a 7 day opt and retire code. I ended up setting a retirement date at 20 years and 7 day opting from the assignment. Bottom line, if you're close to retirement ask MPF what your actual options are. If you don't like their answer have them speak with AFPC policy branch for the official policy.

[Galaxy Driver]

Be careful how you view the time you have left in the AF if you don't have an established DOS or retirement, because I don't think it's a magic 13-month window for retirement. You have to ask and get your retirement date approved. They could extend it for a remote/365.

The screwed up AF method requires you to first submit a request that confirms you are retirement eligible which can take up to 10 business days. Only after that comes back can you actually submit your retirement request.

My experience and one of a buddy was that once they saw you submitted the first request they'd take you off the list. Apparently they've been burned by this (having people not actually submit the second request) so they almost wouldn't accept that either (current as of last week) but he was 2nd on the list so they accepted it. There was no warning that you are getting close or anything. They could have easily pushed the retirement date back until after return from the 365.

[itsokimapilot]

Be careful how you view the time you have left in the AF if you don't have an established DOS or retirement, because I don't think it's a magic 13-month window for retirement. You have to ask and get your retirement date approved. They could extend it for a remote/365.

The screwed up AF method requires you to first submit a request that confirms you are retirement eligible which can take up to 10 business days. Only after that comes back can you actually submit your retirement request.

My experience and one of a buddy was that once they saw you submitted the first request they'd take you off the list. Apparently they've been burned by this (having people not actually submit the second request) so they almost wouldn't accept that either (current as of last week) but he was 2nd on the list so they accepted it. There was no warning that you are getting close or anything. They could have easily pushed the retirement date back until after return from the 365.

Not completely true. Once you submit a request for retirement your assignment is put on hold pending your retirement approval. Again, if you are greater than 12 months and your handed a 365 your only options are either take the remote or 3 day opt and separate.

[HossHarris]

if you are greater than 12 months ... or 3 day opt and separate.

Which would mean separating prior to 20.

[itsokimapilot]

Which would mean separating prior to 20.

It's not a great option, but it sounds like Your option.

[matmacwc]

Your MPF will most likely F it all up like mine, but I ended up on top.