brickhistory Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Better if I say it appears that one belief system is being substituted for another? The exact argument made to get to this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Accept or be considered homophobic and subject to military sanctions. Your views/opinions/beliefs are secondary to theirs. Seems fair... Sort of like when we integrated blacks into the service. Gays have been allowed for a while. If that bothers you so very much, you should probably get out. I'm not sure where you're going to find a major civilian company that bans gays either though. I guess the Westboro guys may be hiring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Sort of like when we integrated blacks into the service. Gays have been allowed for a while. If that bothers you so very much, you should probably get out. I'm not sure where you're going to find a major civilian company that bans gays either though. I guess the Westboro guys may be hiring... Brick is retired, and I thank him for his service. He has a different opinion on the matter and I say he's more than able to share it here. I'm sure he welcomes the spirited debate. There are a lot more issues and problems the country is facing, and I would argue that gays serving and gay marriage and the like is not one of those problems. The liberals cheering for 'Liberty and Justice' are liars as they want neither Liberty and/or Justice for all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaddebate Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 For the earlier argument regarding homosexuality vs. different standards for transgender persons:DODI 6130.03 - Medical Standards for Appointment, Enlistment, or Induction in the Military Services History of major abnormalities or defects of the genitalia such as change of sex [...] Current or history of psychosexual conditions (302), including but not limited to transsexualism [...] and other paraphilias.These are different concepts, and I sincerely doubt the military would jump to allowing transgender personnel (neither pre- nor post-op) to enter or remain in service ... for at least the next 20 years ... maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) This guys first shirt and CC should be fixing this, but maybe they are scared of a lawsuit, which in my opinion is one of the real reasons behind all of this crap. Edited June 27, 2013 by matmacwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 This guys first shirt and CC should be fixing this, but maybe they are scared of a lawsuit, which in my opinion is one of the real reasons behind all of this crap. Lawsuit? For enforcing the regs and standards in the AFI? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Don't like the regs or laws, lawsuit, been watching the news much lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAG Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I don't know...how do colleges manage it? Day man is correct...you're both adults. Get over it, and if he's creeping you out with comments about how you should hook up, then ask to change rooms. It's not like you're going to catch "gay" from sleeping in the same room. Or you accuse him of sexual harassment which is exactly what that is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M2 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Painted nails and a trimmed goatee? He needs to be straightened out (no pun intended) no matter what his sexual orientation is. Neither are allowed for males in the USAF, regardless of which team they bat on. A shaving waiver means NO shaving whatsoever, so if he's trimming his beard (no STS) then he's in violation. It's bullshit that people are too scared to correct such discrepancies for fear of unsubstantiated accusations afterward... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catbox Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 If I'm being totally honest, the nail polish and the goatee were secondary to his mannerisms. Although I don't consider myself a homo-phobe, I was incredibly uncomfortable because he was far more effeminate than most military women you meet. He was complete with a lisp and lilting tone and had a little head shake while he was talking. Should I have said something to him or supervisor? Probably and I still can talk to his supervisor, though with the amount of Chiefs around this "undisclosed location" I can't imagine the matter hasn't already been addressed...probably repeatedly. My point is more of are we just supposed to passively accept this as the wave of the future? My grandpa was an MP when the force was integrated in the 40s/50s and to the day he died he resented it...obviously he was wrong but his prism was from a generation with different standards than I have now. But will my views on effeminate men (which I don’t think are all that close minded) be a relic of a more ignorant generation just like I view my grandpas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Has the Air Force gotten that bad? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 If I'm being totally honest, the nail polish and the goatee were secondary to his mannerisms. Although I don't consider myself a homo-phobe, I was incredibly uncomfortable because he was far more effeminate than most military women you meet. He was complete with a lisp and lilting tone and had a little head shake while he was talking. Should I have said something to him or supervisor? Probably and I still can talk to his supervisor, though with the amount of Chiefs around this "undisclosed location" I can't imagine the matter hasn't already been addressed...probably repeatedly. My point is more of are we just supposed to passively accept this as the wave of the future? My grandpa was an MP when the force was integrated in the 40s/50s and to the day he died he resented it...obviously he was wrong but his prism was from a generation with different standards than I have now. But will my views on effeminate men (which I don’t think are all that close minded) be a relic of a more ignorant generation just like I view my grandpas? Unfortunately, I think you've already figured out the answer to your own question here. Society has a way of changing whether we approve of it or not, and a group or behavior you once strongly disapproved of is accepted into the mainstream, while you yourself turn into the pariah instead, because you refused to change. This has happened since the beginning of time. Honestly, I believe the best way to look at the issue of effeminate men is to take a good look at your most deeply held values and figure out why you feel so strongly about this, because logically, if an effeminate man wants to serve his country and make this world safer for you and your family, why would you disagree with him doing that? Would it be okay if that guy sucks at his job, doesn't give a shit about doing his part, but is a manly man? Imagine if I switched these terms with black and white, and you asked your grandfather this same question. I challenge you to someday just sit down and talk with a gay dude. It might surprise you how much they're just normal human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 ...normal human beings. There are no such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 If I'm being totally honest, the nail polish and the goatee were secondary to his mannerisms. Although I don't consider myself a homo-phobe, I was incredibly uncomfortable because he was far more effeminate than most military women you meet. He was complete with a lisp and lilting tone and had a little head shake while he was talking. Should I have said something to him or supervisor? Probably and I still can talk to his supervisor, though with the amount of Chiefs around this "undisclosed location" I can't imagine the matter hasn't already been addressed...probably repeatedly. My point is more of are we just supposed to passively accept this as the wave of the future? My grandpa was an MP when the force was integrated in the 40s/50s and to the day he died he resented it...obviously he was wrong but his prism was from a generation with different standards than I have now. But will my views on effeminate men (which I don’t think are all that close minded) be a relic of a more ignorant generation just like I view my grandpas? Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAG Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 If I'm being totally honest, the nail polish and the goatee were secondary to his mannerisms. Although I don't consider myself a homo-phobe, I was incredibly uncomfortable because he was far more effeminate than most military women you meet. He was complete with a lisp and lilting tone and had a little head shake while he was talking. Should I have said something to him or supervisor? Probably and I still can talk to his supervisor, though with the amount of Chiefs around this "undisclosed location" I can't imagine the matter hasn't already been addressed...probably repeatedly. My point is more of are we just supposed to passively accept this as the wave of the future? My grandpa was an MP when the force was integrated in the 40s/50s and to the day he died he resented it...obviously he was wrong but his prism was from a generation with different standards than I have now. But will my views on effeminate men (which I don’t think are all that close minded) be a relic of a more ignorant generation just like I view my grandpas? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Powers Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) If I'm being totally honest, the nail polish and the goatee were secondary to his mannerisms. Although I don't consider myself a homo-phobe, I was incredibly uncomfortable because he was far more effeminate than most military women you meet. He was complete with a lisp and lilting tone and had a little head shake while he was talking. Should I have said something to him or supervisor? Probably and I still can talk to his supervisor, though with the amount of Chiefs around this "undisclosed location" I can't imagine the matter hasn't already been addressed...probably repeatedly. My point is more of are we just supposed to passively accept this as the wave of the future? My grandpa was an MP when the force was integrated in the 40s/50s and to the day he died he resented it...obviously he was wrong but his prism was from a generation with different standards than I have now. But will my views on effeminate men (which I don’t think are all that close minded) be a relic of a more ignorant generation just like I view my grandpas? Maybe. Edited June 27, 2013 by Kenny Powers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAG Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) Honest question, do you feel as uncomfortable around the scores of masculine women in the military? ...Short hair, deep/rough voice, uses profanity, can beanch-press more than you, etc? Are they lesbians? Otherwise this is an apples and oranges argument... Edited June 27, 2013 by WAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Are they lesbians? Otherwise this is an apples and oranges argument... Unless they are committing a sexual act in front of you, or they tell you outright, I don't think you have enough data to tell anyone's sexual orientation, including the finance troop who inspired this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAG Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) Unless they are committing a sexual act in front of you, or they tell you outright, I don't think you have enough data to tell anyone's sexual orientation, including the finance troop who inspired this post. Original poster stated this was the first openly gay member he has encountered. I'll assume that was not a preconceived notion and rather a statement of fact given we have repealed DADT. If it is the former, your statement is valid. Edited June 27, 2013 by WAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afnav Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 There was a witch hunt in one of the AWACS squadrons in the late 90s about straight girls not wanting to share their room with who they suspected was a lesbian. As far as I know, it ended with nothing happening to the accused women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilitaryToFinance Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 If I'm being totally honest, the nail polish and the goatee were secondary to his mannerisms. Although I don't consider myself a homo-phobe, I was incredibly uncomfortable because he was far more effeminate than most military women you meet. He was complete with a lisp and lilting tone and had a little head shake while he was talking. My point is more of are we just supposed to passively accept this as the wave of the future? My grandpa was an MP when the force was integrated in the 40s/50s and to the day he died he resented it...obviously he was wrong but his prism was from a generation with different standards than I have now. But will my views on effeminate men (which I don’t think are all that close minded) be a relic of a more ignorant generation just like I view my grandpas? You might not consider yourself a homophobe but you are. If simply talking to a person who has a lisp and shakes his head when he talks makes you uncomfortable then you are pretty far down the road of homophobia. You claim you aren't close minded yet you state multiple times that you are uncomfortable even being around a gay person. He didn't hit on you, you admit he did his job very well and you admit you really weren't bothered by the uniform violations. The only thing that actually bothered you is that he is gay. That is pretty much the definition of bigotry. So to answer your other question, yes. In fact it won't take 40 year, people today are more than willing to let you know that you sound exactly like your grandfather. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Powers Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) You might not consider yourself a homophobe but you are. If simply talking to a person who has a lisp and shakes his head when he talks makes you uncomfortable then you are pretty far down the road of homophobia. You claim you aren't close minded yet you state multiple times that you are uncomfortable even being around a gay person. He didn't hit on you, you admit he did his job very well and you admit you really weren't bothered by the uniform violations. The only thing that actually bothered you is that he is gay. That is pretty much the definition of bigotry. So to answer your other question, yes. In fact it won't take 40 year, people today are more than willing to let you know that you sound exactly like your grandfather. People are uncomfortable with anything they are not familar with. Now that doesn't mean he is a homo phobe, just that he was exposed to something he hadn't been before and found the situation uncomfortable. The OP's execution of describing the situation to paint the big gay picture wasn't the best tactic though... Edited June 27, 2013 by Kenny Powers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaco Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 You might not consider yourself a homophobe but you are. If simply talking to a person who has a lisp and shakes his head when he talks makes you uncomfortable then you are pretty far down the road of homophobia. You claim you aren't close minded yet you state multiple times that you are uncomfortable even being around a gay person. He didn't hit on you, you admit he did his job very well and you admit you really weren't bothered by the uniform violations. The only thing that actually bothered you is that he is gay. That is pretty much the definition of bigotry. So to answer your other question, yes. In fact it won't take 40 year, people today are more than willing to let you know that you sound exactly like your grandfather. You might not consider yourself an idiot but you are. If you believe it is a phobia for a man to be uncomfortable around another man who is hyper-effemenite then you are pretty far down the road of idiocy. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAG Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 You might not consider yourself a homophobe but you are. If simply talking to a person who has a lisp and shakes his head when he talks makes you uncomfortable then you are pretty far down the road of homophobia. You claim you aren't close minded yet you state multiple times that you are uncomfortable even being around a gay person. He didn't hit on you, you admit he did his job very well and you admit you really weren't bothered by the uniform violations. The only thing that actually bothered you is that he is gay. That is pretty much the definition of bigotry. So to answer your other question, yes. In fact it won't take 40 year, people today are more than willing to let you know that you sound exactly like your grandfather. I find your post to be humorous by the irony of its message and the use of the word bigotry (noun: intolerance toward those that hold different opinions from oneself). Name calling is a poor way to argue a cause and is a cheap way to stymie debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 you sound exactly like your grandfather.Grandfather = "Greatest Generation. I'm good... 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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