Majestik Møøse Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 Depending on the outcome of the investigation, this may or may not have any relevance, but here is a blog post by a former charter loadmaster. It is, if nothing else, an interesting read. The High Risk Job of a Military Charter Loadmaster I think this particular passage is extremely relevant: "I recall telling people about the job, and they would all ask what I studied in college to do such a thing. At first I thought they were being rude toward me, because the reality is that I was hired at the age of 25 with my only prior experience having been owning NYCAviation, which was only a small nerd site at the time. One day I’m a bouncer asking a friend to see if she could get me an interview at this charter airline, and weeks later I’m in the Middle East doing the payload math that will bring soldiers to and from war." Yep, that checks. Sketchy as hell. I'm sure the rest of the carriers have much more rigorous training programs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosuper Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkFE Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 I think this particular passage is extremely relevant: "........ One day I’m a bouncer asking a friend to see if she could get me an interview at this charter airline, and weeks later I’m in the Middle East doing the payload math that will bring soldiers to and from war." Yep, that checks. Sketchy as hell. I'm sure the rest of the carriers have much more rigorous training programs. I thought the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd christmas Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Benefit to the C-17, all the tiedown hooks on the floor are rated to 25k. Oh, and the pallet locks are strong, probably a lot stronger than anything in a 747. Speaking of, is the 463L pallet anywhere close to the same dimensions as a regular commercial 747 pallet? 463L measures 108"x88"... 463L is the system the AF uses to move cargo. 463 comes from April 1963 when it was designed. It not only includes standard size pallets (108x88), but also includes the dual rail systems in all the cargo aircraft and the material handling equipment like K-loaders. It doesn't appear that the civilian 747s are designed with this in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ratner Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 From ProSuper's 747 CRAF page: "Despite subflooring, any vehicle heavier than a 2-1/2 ton truck cannot be loaded into most civilian aircraft" The average M-ATV or MRAP (e.g. Force Protection Cougar) weighs at least 14 tons after being outfitted. Even though the MRAP is still much heavier, the "2 1/2" part of "2 1/2 ton truck" does not refer to the truck's weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insubordinate & Churlish Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 The "3.0 Gs forward, 2.0 vertical, 1.5 for aft and 1.5 lateral" restraint requirements are AF-wide and are not airframe specific. And Clayton Bigsby is nailing it (sts): you're limited on how much restraint can go in a given spot, and it ends up being such a cluster trying to find all the places you can legally chain/strap down, and figuring out what percentage of the rated restraint is actually being achieved due to angle, etc. Also, someone asked about mixing straps and chains. They shouldn't be mixed because they stretch/give at different rates, and that's obviously not good. Strapping something down, even if it's unsafe, is a lot faster than chaining something down. If someone's priority was speed, straps would be their natural choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) How would you like to figure applied restraint on those spaghetti balls of straps? Hell no. Good luck getting even ONE decent measurement. The "3.0 Gs forward, 2.0 vertical, 1.5 for aft and 1.5 lateral" restraint requirements are AF-wide and are not airframe specific. You might want to double-check your regs... Also, someone asked about mixing straps and chains. They shouldn't be mixed because they stretch/give at different rates, and that's obviously not good. Specifically prohibited in the KC-10. This video clip literally silenced the breakroom at my .civ job. Ugly. Also was a hot topic this past weekend at UTA. I think I (and all the other booms, too) fielded more questions from pilots and engineers about cargo restraint this weekend than I've heard from them in nearly 6 years of flying in the AF. Edited May 8, 2013 by JarheadBoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbirdd Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Hell no. Good luck getting even ONE decent measurement. You might want to double-check your regs... Specifically prohibited in the KC-10. This video clip literally silenced the breakroom at my .civ job. Ugly. Also was a hot topic this past weekend at UTA. I think I (and all the other booms, too) fielded more questions from pilots and engineers about cargo restraint this weekend than I've heard from them in nearly 6 years of flying in the AF. My weekend was filled with pilots asking cargo type questions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LL Windshear Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Just got back from downrange. Witnessed the 747 crash firsthand. Didn't sleep for 2 days. That memory will haunt me forever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweaty Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Was parked next to the 747 a day or 2 before it went down...was loading the same MRAP's they were loading. First time I ever paid attention to it but I saw the palettized MRAP's on there K-Loader from a distance I thought no way would I accept that load judging how it looked from a distance.. Just looking at the pictures above and assuming it was loaded similar on the National Cargo jet there is very little restraint other than vertical regardless of whatever there restraint requirement required is. Have dealt with the AF ATOC guys and they said National has there own load teams consisting of TCN's and dealing with the same companies (National) TCN's at another location on a regular basis the simplest task turns into a dick dance everytime. It's a shame if it turns out to be something that very easily could have be prevented as said before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Honcho Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Just got back from downrange. Witnessed the 747 crash firsthand. Didn't sleep for 2 days. That memory will haunt me forever... Welcome home. Talk to somebody about it. Seriously. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LL Windshear Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 Welcome home. Talk to somebody about it. Seriously. Thanks, no. Compartmentalized and moved on. The MC-12W crash 2 days prior only made it worse though. I knew the 747 was going to crash well before it did. The first thing i saw was the plane climbing at a 45 degree angle. Even empty, they don't do that. The AOA kept increasing though...even at 80 degrees nose-high, it continued to climb albeit briefly. I can recount every detail precisely, but instead I'm going to go grab a coffee, go out to my backyard (rural Iowa acreage), and enjoy the day. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitman Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 Thanks, no. Compartmentalized and moved on. The MC-12W crash 2 days prior only made it worse though. I knew the 747 was going to crash well before it did. The first thing i saw was the plane climbing at a 45 degree angle. Even empty, they don't do that. The AOA kept increasing though...even at 80 degrees nose-high, it continued to climb albeit briefly. I can recount every detail precisely, but instead I'm going to go grab a coffee, go out to my backyard (rural Iowa acreage), and enjoy the day. I'm sorry you had to witness that, hang in there. That sounds like a perfect place to relax post deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 You really should go talk to someone about it (if you never want to fly an airplane again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LL Windshear Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 You really should go talk to someone about it (if you never want to fly an airplane again). I flew the next day...and I was fine. I've spoken to a few people about it. I wasn't the only one who witnessed it. They also flew. Sad fact is that plane crashes are a part of the business. I was hoping to never witness one myself, and I hope to never witness one again. Hearing about it on the news is one thing, seeing/hearing/feeling the impact is quite another. I've since watched it a dozen times or so on youtube. Believe it or not, that helps to desensitize. Still makes my stomach turn, but what are you gonna do? BL, I'm good. My rotation ended shortly after that incident, and provided the opportunity to reconnect with my family and think about "life". That said, aviation is, and always has been, the passion of my life. Can't wait to get back in the air next month. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Honcho Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 You really should go talk to someone about it (if you never want to fly an airplane again). Easy. My bad for not being clear, I had no intention of recommending running to public health/mental health/ MFLAC/resiliency coordinator/whatever they're calling it now. I meant next time you're in the bar with the bros, mention it. Shit dude, watching the tape a few times has helped folks so if YouTube is it, do that. Just hug your kids and don't let it ###### you up is what I meant.What the ######? I can't say ######? I'm going to talk to someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LL Windshear Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 What the ######? I can't say ######? I'm going to talk to someone. I'd recommend keeping that to yourself. Compartmentalize it. Hold it in. It's better that way. Mike, no worries. I didn't take it any way other than intended. Thanks for the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amcflyboy Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 Just before going to UPT, I had a job loading 747's in Hartford, CT. That very October, one of them from the same company crashed in Halifax, while I was at Columbus. Come to find out, not only did I know the crew, but also found out that the pilot rotated early due to his V-Speeds being wrong because the weight and balance was calculated incorrectly. The subject of pallets has come up with the 747's in this thread. The 747 CAN take the 463L pallet (being a former aerial porter myself), but normally takes what is called PMC pallets. They are thinner and lighter and quite frankly, are crap. They are nicknamed "cookie sheets" and for good reason. Those MRAPS should have been tied down with 25K chains and devices, no excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacAirCoug Posted May 11, 2013 Author Share Posted May 11, 2013 Do 747 BCF's have 25K tie down points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Do 747 BCF's have 25K tie down points? The last time I was in a 747 (Atlas -200) there were no tiedown rings in the floor. Seat tracks running fore-aft, with small portable tiedown rings that snap into the seat tracks where needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacAirCoug Posted May 11, 2013 Author Share Posted May 11, 2013 That's kinda what I figured. 25K chains wouldn't have helped if there's no place to attach them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-21.Pilot Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Was discussing this crash on the golf course today... One of my buddies stated third person that there is communication recording and the words "load shift" are heard. Anyone have insight to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayton Bigsby Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Don't know how the AF ATC does things, but anything on an assigned air traffic frequency is recorded in the FAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arg Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 The last time I was in a 747 (Atlas -200) there were no tiedown rings in the floor. Seat tracks running fore-aft, with small portable tiedown rings that snap into the seat tracks where needed. Same system as my wifes Nissan Titan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 It'll be on tape if he said it on tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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