KState_Poke22 Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 It doesn't anymore.......it did up until a few months ago....granted dudes that were upgrading had a deployment before upgrading and had more than 250 in type, but still. From April until September when I was last at Beale it never counted. People tried to count it but it got fixed if that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Bender, excellent post (#118) and I couldn't agree more. I spent 9 months of my life which I'll never get back flying the Mac-12. I was absolutely shocked at the lack of professionalism both on the ground and in the air. The saddest part of this mishap is that the few of us that could spell the word tactical knew a serious mishap was just a matter of time. I recently lost a dear friend in the dynamic aviation accident in Columbia, he continued to warn me (even on the civilian side) that the community was seconds away from a mishap. Unfortunately it cost him his life. Edited November 17, 2013 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) I had an MC on my last deployment (Major type) try to tell me that the prop de ice worked like the boots on the wings do... HaHa, that's cute...well, they are boots too I suppose. You see, it's just not important how it works, nor how to ops check it. --> Did you check to see if they work? "Yes." Okay, did you check to see if they worked the way you were taught to check them? "No." Okay, are we in some kind of hurry today and I'm just not aware of it? "No." Good, so are we going to check it? *sigh* "Fine." One of the hearts of the problem is the ATO no matter what mentality. I thought we were past that. You thought who was past that? There is a reason for that "mentality", but I agree it sometimes clouds prioritization. There are always metrics. Those metrics change as you move from the tactical to the operational, and to the strategic. There has been discontent over the higher level metrics of ISR for quite some time. While I haven't thought about it all that much, I'm not sure I can come up with a better strategic metric than currently exists without dipping back into the operational/tactical level. I would imagine that the A-10's flying under us are rolling up the same type of "effective" missions that don't ever engage anything. Unfortunately it cost him his life. I'm sorry to hear that, Winchester. I can empathize with your loss. Cheers. What is there to understand? There are a set of assumptions in determining the speed, and one should know the speed and avoid maneuvering below it if at all possible. Nice hip check there, Champ. Absolutely nothing to understand if you have the boldface memorized that makes the aircraft meet those assumptions immediately after you lose your engine at 120 knots on takeoff. As long as you know what/how, no need for silly things like why. While I can get on board with it being more important that you don't sacrifice the what/how for the why's, sometimes it helps people to learn the how's when they understand the why's. In the bigger picture, it's imperative to understand the why's as you branch out and are looked at to teach the systems and mission. I know your high school teachers knew the why's since you managed to graduate and all...burn. Bendy Edited November 17, 2013 by Bender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Hence why I said know the assumptions. No shit you can't always meet them, especially since most takeoffs that I know of in non-VSTOL fixed wing acft start at a speed around zero. I'm saying the definition, assumptions, and what can happen to you are not all that cosmic to understand... even for me. Edited November 17, 2013 by Champ Kind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) or what an SDP is and how it works, or the 11-202, or the 11-217....the list goes on.... Yeah, all of that stuff critical to mission accomplishment. I loved the guys who were self-professed experienced military pilots, and could quote 11-217 chapter and verse, yet had never even laid eyes on the JFIRE or 3-09.3 or had any idea what a 3-1 was or why it might be important to their mission in the MC-12. Edited November 17, 2013 by Hacker 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriously Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 the non standard-standards need to go. 90% of the time flying with dudes who try to do that flow bullshit I always have to call them out for skipping steps in a checklist. Using a checklist isn't cosmic, don't understand at all what all the pushback about using them is.....lets also remember than when we upgrade these LTs their 250 hours of UPT time counts.....I don't know any other airplane that allows upgrades like that.....as for the lack of GK, it's astonishing. Senior leadership even doesnt know the regs (you said you are at BAF, so you know exactly what I'm talking about). Shack Rolling down the runway and going heads down flipping switches is NEVER a good idea. My problem with the upgrades is the judgement factor. Like I said, 95% of the time they will do just fine, but when something actually happens, most don't have the ability to make the right judgement call......for example, you have a fuel leak that you can look out the window and see the fuel coming out of the wing....do you declare an emergency or not? Legitimate request for explanation: Are you talking about starting the after landing checks while rolling down the runway? How is this any different than flipping switches while taxiing? Would you say the line-up check shouldn't be completed while taking the runway? "Heads down" to me means staring inside the cockpit. You don't need to be "heads down" to flip a few switches. If you have to stare inside the cockpit to flip a few switches, it would seem to me that your crosscheck probably could use some improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak47 Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Yeah, all of that stuff critical to mission accomplishment. I loved the guys who were self-professed experienced military pilots, and could quote 11-217 chapter and verse, yet had never even laid eyes on the JFIRE or 3-09.3 or had any idea what a 3-1 was or why it might be important to their mission in the MC-12. I'd agree with the caveat that if you get yourself killed or bend the plane, then all the JFIRE and 3-1 knowledge in the world won't help. Mishaps have included flying too close to or into thunderstorms, doing more than transiting through moderate icing, and flying too slowly. If you don't know the basics enough to be safe (and to be fair, maybe these guys were intentionally disregarding the things they already knew, which would make it even worse), then you're a hindrance and not a help. I'm not talking about "how far is a loc signal considered reliable" or any of that bullshit, but what's going to keep you alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Hence why I said know the assumptions. No shit you can't always meet them, especially since most takeoffs that I know of in non-VSTOL fixed wing acft start at a speed around zero. I'm saying the definition, assumptions, and what can happen to you are not all that cosmic to understand... even for me. Caveat: While I have little doubt that you do completely understand... So what's that assumption exactly about the power again in your plane? I wonder what the boldface/CAP for power is in the MC-12 for an engine failure on takeoff continued (a step before applied before airspeed)... hmmm.... It's not that cosmic, sure...but I'm willing to bet the monkey causes a big wreck off the end of the runway nine times out of ten. **He learned to blindly applying mantras by reading this thread.** Bendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunes Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Yeah, all of that stuff critical to mission accomplishment. I loved the guys who were self-professed experienced military pilots, and could quote 11-217 chapter and verse, yet had never even laid eyes on the JFIRE or 3-09.3 or had any idea what a 3-1 was or why it might be important to their mission in the MC-12. I'd agree with the caveat that if you get yourself killed or bend the plane, then all the JFIRE and 3-1 knowledge in the world won't help. Mishaps have included flying too close to or into thunderstorms, doing more than transiting through moderate icing, and flying too slowly. If you don't know the basics enough to be safe (and to be fair, maybe these guys were intentionally disregarding the things they already knew, which would make it even worse), then you're a hindrance and not a help. I'm not talking about "how far is a loc signal considered reliable" or any of that bullshit, but what's going to keep you alive. this I'm not talking the queepy shit in those pubs. I'm talking the basic knowledge like thunderstorms, weather required for us to carry alternate gas, climb requirements for ifr departure procedures on ifr days, etc......i know you flew the mc-12 before and you should know that the mc-12 3-1 is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 this I'm not talking the queepy shit in those pubs. I'm talking the basic knowledge like thunderstorms, weather required for us to carry alternate gas, climb requirements for ifr departure procedures on ifr days, etc......i know you flew the mc-12 before and you should know that the mc-12 3-1 is a joke. Agreed on both counts. I think the mistake is when folks think that being a good combat airman stops at the non-tactical regulatory stuff when you are operating in a direct air support tactical capacity. There are a good number of military aviators who, unfortunately, don't believe that. Can't believe disappointed that the MC-12 3-1 is still shite this far down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lj35driver Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Anyone else hearing anything about another MC-12 crashing in the past few hours? Someone here said ABC news is reporting 3 American ISAF members killed. Did a search on some of the news sites and haven't found anything. Really bad week for military aviation. Edited January 10, 2014 by lj35driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWACSEng Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 http://abcnews.go.com/t/blogentry?id=21483123&source=hp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagledriver22 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 ABC confirmed it was an MC-12... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookieRookie Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Word is it's an Army version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarHeelPilot Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 MC-12 never flies with 2 active duty and 1 civilian.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueypilot Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Nevermind, I re-read the article. It made a statement that a Black Hawk crashed in December as well. Sucks for any aircraft to crash, but the MC-12s have had a rough go of it... Edited January 10, 2014 by Hueypilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 This has not been a good week. Them Them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAR Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 It was not an MC-12, there're a lot of other C-12s out here. Still, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HercDude Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 What a shitty way to start 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HU&W Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Also, can we split this thread since this isn't about the MC-12 crash in AFG? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke77 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) MC-12 never flies with 2 active duty and 1 civilian.... It was not an MC-12, there're a lot of other C-12s out here. Still, When I was wrapping up my MC-12 tour, some of the EFIS-equipped MC-12s from Balad were being transferred to the Army, so unless you have intimate knowledge of this mishap, I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Army flies with mixed crews as well. Edited January 10, 2014 by Nuke77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunes Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 When I was wrapping up my MC-12 tour, some of the EFIS-equipped MC-12s from Balad were being transferred to the Army, so unless you have intimate knowledge of this mishap, I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Army flies with mixed crews as well. as a guy that is here now, he is right. It wasn't an AF airplane or an AF crew. Still though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke77 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Glad to hear that you guys are all safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeHavilland Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I know way too many folks there doing that Army mission. Prayers to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverTQ Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 It sounds like ODIN A to me. Haven't heard anything through our side yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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