Air Battle Manager (ABM) info

[EasyOsey]

Disco_Nav/Prosuper - you all are part of the problem that Windshear speaks of. The Capt AC doesn't outrank the Major MCC - but he does have PIC responsibilities as he should...my/our lives depend directly on the ACs skills and decision-making. But the statement doesn't even need to be made - all of the MCCs and ACs I fly with understand their roles and WORK TOGETHER to get the mission accomplished. The best commander I have worked for in an AWACS sq is a pilot - because he got it and was involved in both the aviation and mission aspects. At least in PACAF, flight and mission crew dudes don't have to put each other down to make themselves feel better. Like Windshear mentioned, in PACAF WE get the mission done to benefit everyone, rank/crew position doesn't matter, most everyone is involved in aviation and mission aspects, and we all drink in the bar as much as possible. Hell, we have gotten most of the flight crew dudes to join in on Roll Calls and Callsign nights, which I consider a win. Sadly Tinker breeds a much different mindset that focuses less on execution and more on queep...they are actually considering taking FEs out of the flight crew flight so they can have better supervisory ops. UFB! And in my squadron, most ABMs attend flight crew specific briefs (hot/cold wx ops, flight crew specialized briefs, learning the basics of various programs, etc.) Hell, while I might be slower than shit, but I can file 1801s, interpret wx data, use CFPS to build a flight plan, calculate fuel numbers, etc. (Always get a flight crew dude to check my work though). When was the last time you sat through a surveillance specialized or weapons debrief, Disco?

[Disco_Nav963]

Slow your roll OSEY, and get that sarcasm detector checked out. If you'd been around here for more than 5 minutes you'd know that (1) I usually pump the proto-ABMs full of sunshine (see post #67 above) and value what they bring to the fight, and (2) I've been out of the jet for ~15 months. So the last time I sat in on a weapons debrief was... about 16 months ago. Yes, I used to watch tape debriefs when I was an FTU IN. In my ops squadron I worked in DOW — by choice — and many of my best friends were and are ABMs. I was just trying to dispell what Prosuper was throwing out with regard to the inevitability of an ABMer being hated by flight deck and along the way highlight that it's (counterintuitively) easier to develop a bad rep as an older guy -- i.e. the horror stories of MCCs that don't understand PIC authority (I've only seen it once), the SD OG exec attached flyer that shows up to piss in the AC's cereal bowl over the Net during the debrief b/c he *gasp* didn't stop other crewmembers from wearing ballcaps in flight, etc. ... aaaand save the guy some grief over "transitions." I've heard O-5 ABMs say it and it's always uncomfortable.

LL, I think you're working off dated gouge (it really used to be that bad, or so I hear) and misinterpreting good-natured ribbing as legit hate.

OSEY, I heard that rumor about FEs... A real shame if that comes to pass. Good on you for learning some flight deck mission planning skillz (would have been really helpful to have someone like you on nights when I was one-deep on the OEF MPC back in the day!). I used to be able to send prank messages from your consoles, probably less useful. I did update the ONE Surveillance kits from time to time, fill in at the mIRC desk in the MPC, trade Falconview tricks /w the couple of ASOs we had in DOW, etc. Probably less useful that the stuff you've picked up, but I was no blue curtain-closer.

[itsokimapilot]

Disco_Nav/Prosuper - you all are part of the problem that Windshear speaks of. The Capt AC doesn't outrank the Major MCC - but he does have PIC responsibilities as he should...my/our lives depend directly on the ACs skills and decision-making. But the statement doesn't even need to be made - all of the MCCs and ACs I fly with understand their roles and WORK TOGETHER to get the mission accomplished. The best commander I have worked for in an AWACS sq is a pilot - because he got it and was involved in both the aviation and mission aspects. At least in PACAF, flight and mission crew dudes don't have to put each other down to make themselves feel better. Like Windshear mentioned, in PACAF WE get the mission done to benefit everyone, rank/crew position doesn't matter, most everyone is involved in aviation and mission aspects, and we all drink in the bar as much as possible. Hell, we have gotten most of the flight crew dudes to join in on Roll Calls and Callsign nights, which I consider a win. Sadly Tinker breeds a much different mindset that focuses less on execution and more on queep...they are actually considering taking FEs out of the flight crew flight so they can have better supervisory ops. UFB! And in my squadron, most ABMs attend flight crew specific briefs (hot/cold wx ops, flight crew specialized briefs, learning the basics of various programs, etc.) Hell, while I might be slower than shit, but I can file 1801s, interpret wx data, use CFPS to build a flight plan, calculate fuel numbers, etc. (Always get a flight crew dude to check my work though). When was the last time you sat through a surveillance specialized or weapons debrief, Disco?

I'm not busting your chops, but it's not PIC responsibility, it's authority. I don't care the rank of anyone on board my jet, it's my jet period. The way an AC talks to any crew member may be slightly different depending on rank, but the authority is always with the AC. I have a buddy who was the AC with a 4 star as a pilot, the AC sent him around. Why? Because the Captain had the authority to and it was the right thing to do.

[brickhistory]

First, to the retired "other ranks" ProSuper: "No packets of coffee creamer or sugar?" Standards must be slipping. Not only did the groundskeepers strap us in, but while they were kneeling, they often buffed the totally unnecessary jump boots I wore. Then a hot beverage was offered with a downward cast eye.

Second, to those complaining about poor A/Rs, or other substandard control. That does suck. You'd think with the great numbers of training sorties, multitudinous assets available to provide said controller training, and an ability to not constantly rush Lts through said training, that the control provided would be better.

As to making a separate ABM forum, I'd be agin it. Might as well keep the potshots here in public since it's very good training for AOR experience. No convenient interflight freq or even within the confines of a multi-body cockpit to keep those public displays of buffoonery in-house needed. Nope, keep it out there for all to see and hear.

I always wondered at Air Force policy to assign, usually, the not at the top of their class pilots to E-3s and E-8s. I read and hear so much about the value and money invested in training a pilot and how that should be the prime consideration for so many career things, that the same logic should apply to a $250B+ airframe vs. most single seaters. Relatively speaking, we've got lots of F-16s, et al, but not so much when it comes to E-3s or E-8s. Why not the best in the most expensive?

Finally, as to the opening poster's request for info, I am waaaay too long in the tooth and too far gone from anything approaching current, useful gouge to be of help except for offering one piece of advice. Think ahead of the radar. Remember, the picture you are seeing is 6+ seconds old (depending on system). Add in the second or two it will take you to assimilate the picture and transmit that, and you are behind the curve if you simply give that now old picture.

A "merge" on your scope means it already happened. Calling the receiver turn at exactly when your display shows it means you are late with the call. Know the capabilites of your assets, know those of the adversary, remember that the 3-D picture keeps changing and is 6+ seconds ahead of what your are seeing. That little orange dot/pixel (E-3 symbology) is actually already somewhere else doing something else.

Be a mission hound. Offer to take any control opportunity, anytime.

Don't let aasshats get you down. Learn from those you can, ignore the tools.

Just call me capt obvious on most of these...

[Whitty]

I heard the Penguins at Robins are the same way.

We get along great. Though my experience so far is limited to the training squadron. The community is too small to play the who's who game.

Seconding what others have already said, the best advice I can give as a goat to other future ABM types is to 1) know your role and put the effort in to be good at it, but 2) learn as much as you can about the duties of the other guys you fly with. There are some folks who really know their shit and have a wealth of knowledge to pick from. Especially the case at Robins with the dinosaur guard dudes.

Lastly, don't be a Buddy F'er.

[Parker]

Its been a while since I've checked in, got all my waivers (woohoo!) and I'll be going down to tyndall Sept 30th. Another question I have is that I unfortunately made the decision to adopt an AmStaff (aka pit bull) 3 years ago and he pretty much is my child, I've been looking for rentals in Panama City and havent been having any luck apartment wise finding a place that will let me keep him. I'll live out of my truck if I have to but I hope it doesnt come to that :) was hoping anyone might have any sort of leads on places I could rent with my puppy.

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

[Jonesy]

Parker,

Go to AHRN.com. There's a bunch of 1-2 bedroom options that allow pets.

[Whitty]

Its been a while since I've checked in, got all my waivers (woohoo!) and I'll be going down to tyndall Sept 30th. Another question I have is that I unfortunately made the decision to adopt an AmStaff (aka pit bull) 3 years ago and he pretty much is my child, I've been looking for rentals in Panama City and havent been having any luck apartment wise finding a place that will let me keep him. I'll live out of my truck if I have to but I hope it doesnt come to that :) was hoping anyone might have any sort of leads on places I could rent with my puppy.

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

Check Waterstone apartments. They were pet friendly.

Also, don't use smiley faces like that. It comes across quite gay. If you must, use the BaseOps approved selection.

[koonunga_hill]

http://www.tyndall.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123316759

Just wanted to see if this change in the chain of command for the 325th ACS (Soon to be 337th) will affect training. Also will anything be affected by being on an ACC base while in an AETC squadron? Finally, does anyone know if the options for assignments out of UABMT has changed from the usual 4 AWACS spots and Robins?

Way off topic too but how are the Bay Front Apartments right across the bridge? Thinking of getting a 1 bedroom apt in that complex when I get down there in a couple weeks.

[abmwaldo]

http://www.tyndall.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123316759

Just wanted to see if this change in the chain of command for the 325th ACS (Soon to be 337th) will affect training. Also will anything be affected by being on an ACC base while in an AETC squadron? Finally, does anyone know if the options for assignments out of UABMT has changed from the usual 4 AWACS spots and Robins?

Way off topic too but how are the Bay Front Apartments right across the bridge? Thinking of getting a 1 bedroom apt in that complex when I get down there in a couple weeks.

There will be minimal impact to students other than new squadron patches. There will be changes but they will impact permanent party more than students.

As far as assignments go we're continuing to get CRCs dropped, Korea, Tyndall plowback (think FAIP), along with GK, Elmendorf, and Kadena. Robins and Tinker always need more bodies.

Bay front isn't bad. I've got a friend that owns a place there. Close to base an on the water. Only complaint would be if the wind shifts just right you'll get a faceful of paper mill. There's not too much immediately there so you'll have to drive to get to 23rd or Mexico Beach.

[AFEAGLE09]

Why is it that Air National Guard Air Battle Managers do not get their wings after UABM training?

The new syllabus at UABM introduces flying and basic aviation, and makes the training standardized for everyone. Although ANG ABM's are mostly CRC's, they still get the training at the school house. Heard somewhere that this issue is being fought at the Congress level?

Can someone enlighten me?

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

OOOOOOOOH boy I really want to say some shit I probably shouldn't!

[matmacwc]

I'll do it, they don't get wings, they get rides.

All joking aside, they do fly in airplanes, so they should get the badge they earn. My REAL question is why do enlisted UAS sensor operators get wings.

[nsplayr]

Dude, you already asked this question in another thread.

[abmwaldo]

Why is it that Air National Guard Air Battle Managers do not get their wings after UABM training?

The new syllabus at UABM introduces flying and basic aviation, and makes the training standardized for everyone. Although ANG ABM's are mostly CRC's, they still get the training at the school house. Heard somewhere that this issue is being fought at the Congress level?

Can someone enlighten me?

I don't know if it's being fought at the Congressional level and I don't really care.

The training is standardized amongst AD, ANG, and Reserve but ANG are not required to fly. The exception is those who are ANG at Robins. CRC ANG studs get flights on an "as able" basis and typically it's not an issue but I've witnessed times when it was.

The way it was explained to me was that ANG studs would NEVER meet their first gate because ground based OFDA only counts for 24 months out of the first 96. It was a rated management function and nothing else.

[nrodgsxr]

I'll do it, they don't get wings, they get rides.

All joking aside, they do fly in airplanes, so they should get the badge they earn. My REAL question is why do enlisted UAS sensor operators get wings.

Why do any UAS operators get wings?

[HU&W]

Why do comm guys and S&M guys get wings?

Edited January 21, 2013 by HU&W

[nsplayr]

Why do comm guys and S&M guys get wings?

Be careful saying "S&M guys" these days...don't wanna get caught up in the

As a matter of fact, I'm offended at how unprofessional you must be just for typing that!

[guineapigfury]

Why do any UAS operators get wings?

Because they graduated pilot training. The guys who did the RPA only track get a different set of wings.

[nsplayr]

Because they graduated pilot training. The guys who did the RPA only track get a different set of wings.

That's his point...why is it a different set of "wings" for the 18XXers and the SOs when they're not actually going up in the air?

[Dupe]

My view is that people in the AF who operate weapons systems should have wings. The systems that we can use as weapons is rapidly changing. I think I'm open to the idea that a computer nerd, a space geek, or a guy in a container at Creech may have more of an ability to remove the enemy's will to fight than me in the F-15E.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Dupe

[nsplayr]

My view is that people in the AF who operate weapons systems should have wings. The systems that we can use as weapons is rapidly changing. I think I'm open to the idea that a computer nerd, a space geek, or a guy in a container at Creech my have more of an ability to remove the enemy's will to fight than me in the F-15E.

Totally agree, just was trying to clarify what I thought the other guy's point was.

If wings are for "operators" in the air force then why not have them be worn by people operating out newest weapons of war? I've got no problem with it, especially for people operating UAVs. Those things are flying in the stack same as anything else, just happens that because of our technological awesomeness as a nation the guy at the controls doesn't have to be there too and is free to bang his wife at night and drink more than 3 beers. That's my view and it seems like Big AF pretty much agrees.

Now "wings" for comm nerds doing hacking/WOW/whatever else they do...IDK...that really doesn't have anything to do with flying.

[Keydet]

Why do any UAS operators get wings?

To keep you awake at night wondering.

[herkbum]

Why do any UAS operators get wings?

Why do you wear wings?

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

I swear some guys are worse than women bitching about what other people wear. WHO CARES? There's enough stupidity that actually MATTERS that it's not worth the time and brain bites trying worrying about what some other person in some other career field gets to wear. Are you really that sensitive that someone else getting a badge that kinda looks like wings keeps you up at night?