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HeloDude

Taxes, the Deficit/Debt, and the Fiscal Cliff

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The same party that lost the Presidential election? Yes, they're in the wrong. It will be so pathetically easy to spin the GOP as abandoning the middle class if we go over the fiscal cliff because they couldn't give up a tax cut to the richest 2%.

All Democrats really need to do is fire up the spin machine and sit by as the GOP continues to self-destruct and alienate vast segments of the voting population in its quest to remain ideologically pure.

I would prefer Democrats get off their high horse, stop playing games, and get their hands dirty. All Democrats are doing is looking for the deal that makes them look good and everyone else look bad. Show me a Democrat that is proposing the spending cuts that our budget requires. And that is why America should flush the Congressional toilet because the stagnant shit stinks. But if you want Deomcrats to fire up the spin machine, get out your pom poms and cheer for them all the way.

So here is my spin on this mess, "Its the spending, stupid!"

Disgustingly Out

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I would prefer Democrats get off their high horse, stop playing games, and get their hands dirty. All Democrats are doing is looking for the deal that makes them look good and everyone else look bad. Show me a Democrat that is proposing the spending cuts that our budget requires. And that is why America should flush the Congressional toilet because the stagnant shit stinks. But if you want Deomcrats to fire up the spin machine, get out your pom poms and cheer for them all the way.

So here is my spin on this mess, "Its the spending, stupid!"

Disgustingly Out

That's an amazingly biased view of the situation. Both parties are playing politics; the problem is that the Democrats actually have all of the political capital. The Republicans have been negotiating as if they have any leverage whatsoever, and everybody knows that they don't. So, at this point it's just a waiting game as more and more GOP lawmakers start capitulating to reality, instead of living in this fantasy dreamworld where standing their ground and wrecking the economy is actually a viable strategy.

So, I forsee two likely situations: the Democrats get what they want with a few concessions because the GOP had the good sense to realize their incredibly weak negotiating position and participate in the governmental process, or that the GOP stands their ground, we go over the cliff, get blamed for the 2nd recession, and get absolutely crushed in 2014 because people are tired of the gridlock.

I prefer the former since it saves the economic recovery, but the GOP wants to self-destruct, I'm okay with that too. We'll just have to wait and see what they end up choosing.

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That's an amazingly biased view of the situation. Both parties are playing politics; the problem is that the Democrats actually have all of the political capital. The Republicans have been negotiating as if they have any leverage whatsoever, and everybody knows that they don't. So, at this point it's just a waiting game as more and more GOP lawmakers start capitulating to reality, instead of living in this fantasy dreamworld where standing their ground and wrecking the economy is actually a viable strategy.

So, I forsee two likely situations: the Democrats get what they want with a few concessions because the GOP had the good sense to realize their incredibly weak negotiating position and participate in the governmental process, or that the GOP stands their ground, we go over the cliff, get blamed for the 2nd recession, and get absolutely crushed in 2014 because people are tired of the gridlock.

I prefer the former since it saves the economic recovery, but the GOP wants to self-destruct, I'm okay with that too. We'll just have to wait and see what they end up choosing.

Interesting. So you think the republicans are wrong for attempting to put together a sustainable financial plan? The national debt has increased $6T over the past 4 years. Obama's plan calls for $1.6T in new taxes over the next 10 years as well as increased stimulus. Something doesn't add up here. Please explain to me how this plan would be better for the economy?

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That's an amazingly biased view of the situation. Both parties are playing politics; the problem is that the Democrats actually have all of the political capital. The Republicans have been negotiating as if they have any leverage whatsoever, and everybody knows that they don't. So, at this point it's just a waiting game as more and more GOP lawmakers start capitulating to reality, instead of living in this fantasy dreamworld where standing their ground and wrecking the economy is actually a viable strategy.

So, I forsee two likely situations: the Democrats get what they want with a few concessions because the GOP had the good sense to realize their incredibly weak negotiating position and participate in the governmental process, or that the GOP stands their ground, we go over the cliff, get blamed for the 2nd recession, and get absolutely crushed in 2014 because people are tired of the gridlock.

I prefer the former since it saves the economic recovery, but the GOP wants to self-destruct, I'm okay with that too. We'll just have to wait and see what they end up choosing.

Biased, huh? OK, Mr Smarty Pants, what seems to be the big economic problem we have here? Not enough taxes or too much spending? Do I even care about political capital in the capitol, hells no. Would I prefer those elected get their hands dirty and solve the problem, hells yeah. What I mean by getting hands dirty is stop playing politics and do some actual work. This isn't a fucking basketball game where fans cheer for outdoing each other with political slam dunks. Dems are so falling all over themselves from Nov that they see that as a sign from the heavens that they can't be wrong, at least that is what they want you to think.

I don't want the Dems to get what they want because they are flat out wrong. So, like I said, get out your poms and cheer them on. I expect no less from you.

Out

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The Republicans have been negotiating as if they have any leverage whatsoever, and everybody knows that they don't.

The Republicans control the majority of the House. That is leverage despite what the President may say, which is exactly why the Framers devised a bicameral legislature with a separate Executive. The President, the House, and the Senate have to reach a compromise and Boehner is not wrong to demand spending cuts for tax hikes.

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Boehner is not wrong to demand spending cuts for tax hikes.

Which is what the President has been proposing all along... so you're saying the R's leverage is to force Obama to do what he wanted to do in the first place?

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Biased, huh? OK, Mr Smarty Pants, what seems to be the big economic problem we have here? Not enough taxes or too much spending?

Both.

Do I even care about political capital in the capitol, hells no. Would I prefer those elected get their hands dirty and solve the problem, hells yeah. What I mean by getting hands dirty is stop playing politics and do some actual work. This isn't a fucking basketball game where fans cheer for outdoing each other with political slam dunks. Dems are so falling all over themselves from Nov that they see that as a sign from the heavens that they can't be wrong, at least that is what they want you to think.

I don't want the Dems to get what they want because they are flat out wrong. So, like I said, get out your poms and cheer them on. I expect no less from you.

Whether you care about political capital (and what you expect out of me) is pretty much irrelevant. The sad truth is that this is a fight that the GOP can't win. The fact that these guys are willing to send us over the fiscal cliff, do significant damage to the economy, do significant political damage to their own party's future, do significant damage to military readiness, and increase taxes for everyone because they refuse to agree to a tax cut for a rich is completely and utterly irrational. You're sabotaging your primary goal for a meaningless symbolic victory.

If they want to self-destruct as a party, then all I can do is sit back and enjoy the show.

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Both.

Whether you care about political capital (and what you expect out of me) is pretty much irrelevant. The sad truth is that this is a fight that the GOP can't win. The fact that these guys are willing to send us over the fiscal cliff, do significant damage to the economy, do significant political damage to their own party's future, do significant damage to military readiness, and increase taxes for everyone because they refuse to agree to a tax cut for a rich is completely and utterly irrational. You're sabotaging your primary goal for a meaningless symbolic victory.

If they want to self-destruct as a party, then all I can do is sit back and enjoy the show.

Its this kind of thinking that makes me hope we do fall off the cliff. That would let EVERYONE feel some of the pain from out of control spending. I find it amazing that you see this as Dem's vs Rep's. If the republicans conceded completely to the dem's, guess what? We would still have massive and uncontrollable debt. I also find it amazing that you are so confident that it would be the republicans sending us over the cliff even when most have already agreed to tax increases. How are Conservatives not caving in to the liberal demands of no spending cuts somehow the GOP's fault? Concessions work both ways, Rep's agrees to some taxes, Dem's agree to cuts. Republicans aren't trying to win a symbolic victory like you think, they are attempting to be responsible and save the country from massive debt and continued deficits. Personally, I think all taxes should be increased slightly and sweeping cuts get made nearly across the board. Or maybe...and I'm just throwing this out there...we start with a balanced budget!

Maybe all conservatives should just say "fuc-k it" and stop trying to be the responsible ones in this country. Just let the US continue to spiral into deeper debt and roll the bones!

Edit: Fuc-k, I can't say ######

Edited by Magnum

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Its this kind of thinking that makes me hope we do fall off the cliff. That would let EVERYONE feel some of the pain from out of control spending. I find it amazing that you see this as Dem's vs Rep's. If the republicans conceded completely to the dem's, guess what? We would still have massive and uncontrollable debt. I also find it amazing that you are so confident that it would be the republicans sending us over the cliff even when most have already agreed to tax increases. How are Conservatives not caving in to the liberal demands of no spending cuts somehow the GOP's fault? Concessions work both ways, Rep's agrees to some taxes, Dem's agree to cuts. Republicans aren't trying to win a symbolic victory like you think, they are attempting to be responsible and save the country from massive debt and continued deficits. Personally, I think all taxes should be increased slightly and sweeping cuts get made nearly across the board. Or maybe...and I'm just throwing this out there...we start with a balanced budget!

Maybe all conservatives should just say "fuc-k it" and stop trying to be the responsible ones in this country. Just let the US continue to spiral into deeper debt and roll the bones!

Edit: Fuc-k, I can't say ######

Fuck it.

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Which is what the President has been proposing all along... so you're saying the R's leverage is to force Obama to do what he wanted to do in the first place?

Except that Obama rejected this plan too. What was it the president wanted to do in the first place?

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Except that Obama rejected this plan too. What was it the president wanted to do in the first place?

He did?

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Guest one

What happens if every Republican votes like Barack H. Obama before he became President.

"Present "

Didn't seem to hurt his record in the press much

This is what they should do. If as a unit, they all voted present it would be a win-win for the Republicans. If the economy ends up doing worse in the next couple years they will not be held accountable for raising taxes. If the economy does well the Republicans will still be able to say that it was because the Republicans worked with the Democrats even though they were being unreasonable.

Edited by one

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Good article on CNN.com. Not a big fan of pundits, but I usually respect David Gergen's opinions.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/21/opinion/gergen-washington-madness/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Poor leadership from both the Speaker and the Pres displayed by leaving town if you ask me. There are plenty of guys and gals that will be serving their country over Christmas in places far worse than Washington. Seems the least our elected officials could do would be to stick around and get us through this.

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Good article on CNN.com. Not a big fan of pundits, but I usually respect David Gergen's opinions.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/21/opinion/gergen-washington-madness/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Poor leadership from both the Speaker and the Pres displayed by leaving town if you ask me. There are plenty of guys and gals that will be serving their country over Christmas in places far worse than Washington. Seems the least our elected officials could do would be to stick around and get us through this.

True, but this should have been figured out a long time ago--both parties kicked the can down the road. And why didn't you list Reid in that mix? I thought he recessed the Senate yesterday?

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Because Reid follows the president, so once the president gives the blessing the dems will fall inline.

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What incentive is there to POTUS "wheeling-n-dealing" with Republicans when he's already going to get tax increases on the rich by doing nothing. Then Democrats and POTUS can pass a law WITH Republican support in 2013 for tax cuts for those earning less than $250,000....?

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What incentive is there to POTUS "wheeling-n-dealing" with Republicans when he's already going to get tax increases on the rich by doing nothing. Then Democrats and POTUS can pass a law WITH Republican support in 2013 for tax cuts for those earning less than $250,000....?

Bingo. The president is playing politics with this one, knowing that the fiscal cliff will give him the tax increases he wants, and knowing he can just keep forcing continuing resolutions through to avoid cuts to programs he wants to fund.

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Bingo. The president is playing politics with this one, knowing that the fiscal cliff will give him the tax increases he wants, and knowing he can just keep forcing continuing resolutions through to avoid cuts to programs he wants to fund.

It is win/win for the POTUS....either he gets Republican support for the tax increases, or he can blame the Republicans for the fiscal cliff disaster. Either way, Republicans get caught with their dicks in their hands. We already know the sheeple that voted this man back in office will believe anything they hear. Regardless of the outcome, the Republicans will have their hands covered in this dirt....and the POTUS will sit pretty (at least to 50-something percent of the sheeple) looking like he tried his best to keep the average Joe's taxes from going up...when really, it is what he wanted all along.

I have pulled out of the market in anticipation of failure of this government to strike a deal by the end of this week and the resulting crash that I think will happen either Thursday or Friday. Good luck to all!

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It is win/win for the POTUS....either he gets Republican support for the tax increases, or he can blame the Republicans for the fiscal cliff disaster. Either way, Republicans get caught with their dicks in their hands. We already know the sheeple that voted this man back in office will believe anything they hear. Regardless of the outcome, the Republicans will have their hands covered in this dirt....and the POTUS will sit pretty (at least to 50-something percent of the sheeple) looking like he tried his best to keep the average Joe's taxes from going up...when really, it is what he wanted all along.

I have pulled out of the market in anticipation of failure of this government to strike a deal by the end of this week and the resulting crash that I think will happen either Thursday or Friday. Good luck to all!

Man you are spot on. This is exactly what is going on. I have also pulled out of the market and think that we could see something similar to 2008 if we go off the cliff. Am hoping to get back in near the bottom and possibly make enough to cover my higher tax bill for 2013/2014.

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If you guys are as good at predicting the market as you are at political insight and predicting elections, I'm sure you'll all be millionaires soon.

Well at least until Barack Hussein takes it all and gives it to crackhead welfare queens.

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If you guys are as good at predicting the market as you are at political insight and predicting elections, I'm sure you'll all be millionaires soon.

Well at least until Barack Hussein takes it all and gives it to crackhead welfare queens.

You're almost correct. I will be a millionaire in a couple decades (that's "soon" I guess). Of course, loaves of bread will be $1000 and gallons of milk will be $750 by then.

Edited by Ram

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Man you are spot on. This is exactly what is going on. I have also pulled out of the market and think that we could see something similar to 2008 if we go off the cliff. Am hoping to get back in near the bottom and possibly make enough to cover my higher tax bill for 2013/2014.

Completely agree. Just pulled out today. Moved everything to tax exempt long and intermediate term funds.

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