StainedClass Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 While I agree with all of the "airmanship falling to the wayside" comments, I seriously doubt working on a Master's degree or performing additional duties contributed to this particular incident. Landing at the right airport falls into the putting the gear down or making sure the wings are attached before you take off category - either you do it or you don't. No training required, really. The SIB will probably be a human factors bonanza, but I'd be surprised if a lack of training/proficiency was causal here. Look, I've spent a long career (that will end at O-5) instructing, mentoring and sometimes defending my "guys". Lord knows I've made a ton of mistakes and bad decisions and luckily I've never hurt myself or anyone else, in part because someone took the time to instruct, mentor and sometimes defend me. You can blame this incident on whatever or whomever you feel you need to blame it on, but at the end of the day, it was caused by complacency and buffonery. Nothing more, nothing less. Hopefully, we will ALL learn from it and this particular crew will survive and live to fly another day. SC 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzdude Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 HUD doesn't have a steer point indication in it? Closest thing is the airdrop display. It would be neat if we had something similar for approaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Just don't understand a lot of people's aversion to VFR flying. Because it's not like UPT where you just spend all your time going between the MOAs and terminal areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosepileit Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) BDHI/DME too... edit to add, they are right above of your outboard knee. Pretty handy. Probably didn't feel it needed to be in the HUD back when designed. I love VFR, properly applied. Edited July 27, 2012 by moosepileit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Because it's not like UPT where you just spend all your time going between the MOAs and terminal areas. How sure are you that your comment is accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 The most rational explanation I've heard for VFR aversion is ATC not being directly responsible for traffic separation anymore. I'm ready for all the AIS grads and Stan Eval weenies to flip shit about that, but that's how I understood the reg. I've always preferred VFR flying. Even earned a downgrade in UPT on a checkride for cancelling too early. Still proud of that. Just use the mark 1 eyeball and if you're in a jet that has an auto acq, even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Because it's not like UPT where you just spend all your time going between the MOAs and terminal areas I used out/back to MOA as an example, but grabbing the map out and doing some LATN, or even better a tactical sortie planned low, is far more than that. I remember 3-4 months ago when I came back low VFR from the MOA because I had the gas and why not? I was asked by the WG, "how'd you find that lake without a steerpoint?" Uhhh, I looked at the map and out the window. Bottom line: there is a lot of VFR flying to be had that is far more than just flying VFR on the stereo back home. Dudes need to stop being so afraid of VFR flying and man up. Be a pilot...if you start sweating at the thought of having to fly/navigate without ATC holding your hand, get a new job. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Automation is inversely proportional to pilot skill. The more your jet does for you, the less able you are to do anything. I long ago lost count of the number of blank stares I got from C-17 guys when asked to calculate timing based on ground speed or how to enter a hold. If the box doesn't tell them, they have completely lost the ability to do it mentally. Trim? What's that?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techsan Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I'll take some trim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaler Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Wasn't there a C-17 or C-130 a few years back in OEF that mistakenly landed at Khost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream big Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Good quote from one of my UPT instructors: "yeah you can use the EGI to determine your runway offset, or you can be a man and just look outside the canopy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Profound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Good quote from one of my UPT instructors: "yeah you can use the EGI to determine your runway offset, or you can be a man and just look outside the canopy" Or do both and land at the correct airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Buddy of mine overheard one of the IPs telling his student copilot he needed to work on his master's degree during the debrief...and I'm not kidding! The careerists are starting early. FWIW, the IP was the wing exec for a while... Is being a herk co-pilot really that hard? I've had plenty of debriefs with student co-pilots (who did well on the sortie) turn into BS sessions. I don't think I've ever brought up a Master's degree but I'm certainly not going to turn the dude into a SCAR-C or a Lockheed engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcola Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Trim? What's that?!? You don't have to trim the C-17? Serious question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sky_king Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Nope, Auto trim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooter Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) You don't have to trim the C-17? Serious question. You can fly any airplane around without trim. The C-17 has certain functions in its Flight control computer that reduce or remove the need for trim i.e. Roll Reference trim, roll automatic trim, pitch automatic trim, pitch reference trim, yaw normal mode, and EOCS. The -1 puts it better under trim systems: "1-1000. The trim systems provide conventional surface displacement, selection of an attitude (reference trim), or automatic trimming depending on the axis, the phase of flight, and the pilot inputs." Edited July 28, 2012 by Snooter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandCynical Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 AAD didn't cause this. I agree, the push from leadership wrt PME/AAD causes a distraction from proficiency in a jet esp w/ young guys, but that was not a factor in this situation. That's a tough argument to win - "landed at the wrong airport bc they put the focus on PME/AAD and forgot how to identify an airfield". I'm not saying that was/wasn't their focus, but they landed at the wrong airport. If these guys focused on their masters/container checking too much that they were proficient enough to identify the correct airfield, then it's on them. I'm not going to make the choice of rank progression before knowing how to fly a jet. The bigger question is how/why this happened w/ a qualified crew in the AF...ie where was the break in the chain (DO signing orders/visual to field w/ no backup guidance, and looking at a strip 1/3 the size it should be). We can all sit there and throw blame at the upper leadership for the misguidance of what is important as a pilot. It doesn't take Gen Welsh to change that mindset...Most dont sign up to be a pilot in the AF to make Major as a LT. It takes a handful of guys (Capts/Majs) to be the experience in a sq and set that tone. if you're "looking around the sq for the experience"...fvck that, study your ass off and be the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stract Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 flew 3 Southwest Airlines legs this week, and every single one was a VFR approach to the airport (LAS, ABQ, and TUS). Established downwind leg turning base to final, and none of them under or overshot final. Had a copilot a few weeks back when we were flying VFR cross country who didn't know "nee odd sweeven" (but both the FE and gunner knew it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim richalds Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Take the average Air Force pilot to an uncontrolled field and watch the games begin. Not that it had anything to do with this incident, just shows how we all like our hand held the entire way. Also, for bonus points, have them pick up an IFR clearance at a non-towered field, even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 flew 3 Southwest Airlines legs this week, and every single one was a VFR approach to the airport (LAS, ABQ, and TUS). Established downwind leg turning base to final, and none of them under or overshot final. Had a copilot a few weeks back when we were flying VFR cross country who didn't know "nee odd sweeven" (but both the FE and gunner knew it). What is the deal with the steep, S'ing down final, the airlines have to deal with at Tucson? Is that standard? I see it holding short and wonder if all the PAX are getting sick. (I know, small thread derail). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_Vezencuando Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Wasn't there a C-17 or C-130 a few years back in OEF that mistakenly landed at Khost? OAKS - Been there, done that. Fine little patch of earth and concertina wire...a word of caution about the natives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Take the average Air Force pilot to an uncontrolled field and watch the games begin. Why would we land at an uncontrolled field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Why would we land at an uncontrolled field? Because we didn't back up the visual with 4 redundant ILS's coupled to a PAR and have the loadmaster, FE, 2 nav's, a copilot, and a priest backing up our clear and a million visuals into 11,000 foot runways. So unprofessional to not do that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HU&W Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Why would we land at an uncontrolled field? Some folks do it all the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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