C-17 Lands at Wrong Airport

[LockheedFix]

I think C-17s need CSOs.

One crew shits their pants, now we all get navigators. No thanks.

[chim richalds]

Takeoffs are optional, landings are mandatory, landing at the correct airfield also optional

[dream big]

I both agree and disagree with you at the same time. Masters and xmas party planning are bullshit excuses. If you're burning yourself so bad that working on a masters causes you to land at the wrong airport, then you don't deserve to have the A code on any flight. If I told my DO that I need to cancel a high priority mission because I was working on my damn masters, he would tear me a new asshole. How is that any better if I just don't tell the DO and go land at the wrong airport? Totally on the PIC.

Things that you have to do that are actually required such as your desk job, nonflying deployments, and PME (although that one isn't really "required" in practice), then I believe both the AIr Force and the PIC share the blame. The PIC needs to not be a ###### and push back, and the Air Force needs to back off of this culture where pushing back pretty much stratifies you as the bottom 5% of your peer group "problem child". It also doesn't help that, at least in the heavy world, upgrades are completely based on career progression, and are pretty much becoming a joke these days. It used to be that having a K code meant you get some respect. Now, it's a crapshoot until you actually fly with that person.

But ultimately, it falls on the PIC. If you're too overstressed and overworked to fly a sortie safely, then it's your responsibility to ######ing tell somebody. Why the hell do we even have officers in these aircraft if they're too afraid to take responsibility and call bullshit or push back when it's warranted? Personally, I think we have too many pilots just trying to have everything and do it all, unable to realize they have differing limits, and blaming their Air Force for their plight instead of taking a much-needed introspective look to figure out what their priorities are. I personally find that plenty of people would gladly trade safety for a good shot at making rank. Maybe I won't make Major. But I'm sure as hell not landing at the wrong airport.

I think another problem alluding to the post about additional duties is that in a lot of squadrons, we just don't fly much. Copilots in my squadron are averaging 5 hours a month. Yes 5, that's one training sortie. A lot of people are forced to log beans that they didn't fly so that they can be "current." I would kill to fly as much as possible, deploy and become an "expert" in my airframe. I just study the pubs as much as possible (on top of masters, pme, etc) and hope that when our time comes something like this (or worse) won't happen.

Edited July 24, 2012 by dream big

[wacky]

It is too bad the Stratus uses wifi. I guess I will just have to stick with my Dual.

Do you have a reference or link for this memo? I'd like to not have my shit pushed in for using my Dual BT GPS.

Search 'certification of common use carry-on equipment' on the portal and it is the first reference.

[Slander]

I think another problem alluding to the post about additional duties is that in a lot of squadrons, we just don't fly much. Copilots in my squadron are averaging 5 hours a month. Yes 5, that's one training sortie. A lot of people are forced to log beans that they didn't fly so that they can be "current." I would kill to fly as much as possible, deploy and become an "expert" in my airframe. I just study the pubs as much as possible (on top of masters, pme, etc) and hope that when our time comes something like this (or worse) won't happen.

Pencil whipping beans only makes the problem worse. Don't lie on your TARs and let the training guys file the reports. If you're not getting the training you need then lying about it won't fix it. That being said, all of my landings are generally precise approaches...now that 17th red air sortie in a row? That's a different story.

[Guest]

That being said, all of my landings are generally precise approaches...now that 17th red air sortie in a row? That's a different story.

[joe1234]

I think another problem alluding to the post about additional duties is that in a lot of squadrons, we just don't fly much. Copilots in my squadron are averaging 5 hours a month. Yes 5, that's one training sortie. A lot of people are forced to log beans that they didn't fly so that they can be "current." I would kill to fly as much as possible, deploy and become an "expert" in my airframe. I just study the pubs as much as possible (on top of masters, pme, etc) and hope that when our time comes something like this (or worse) won't happen.

Let me try to explain this so that you and your bros understand the full consequence of your actions.

The SQ/CC's job is to run his squadron correctly and in accordance with the regulations. He delegates the flying portion to the DO, who delegates the training portion to the training shop. So, at the end of whatever time period, when the training shop's bright idea is to stick 17 people on a sortie so they can log ALL of their currencies at one time, you need to be truthful when you're logging training currencies. Somebody needs to stand up and say "no, fuck you, I am getting substandard training and now you're all going to fry for it because you're not doing your job".

Not only this, but when new guys come into the squadron and see that "hey this is the way things are done here", they exacerbate and continue the problem to the point where you get only 5 hours a month because the leadership can get away with cutting flights, as it saves money and everyone ends up current and qualified anyway. I'll freely admit that I pencil whip a training item from time to time myself, but I already fly a ton, and it's usually something stupid or otherwise easy to get -- I'd rather give that sortie to someone who actually needs or wants to fly it. But I digress....

Your training shop has failed you, your DO has failed you, and ultimately, your squadron commander has failed you. By lying on your training reports, you let them get away with it. The whole system was specifically designed to prevent this from happening. Most of the time when people lie, they do it to benefit themselves in some way. Only in the fucking Air Force would somebody lie to cover everyone else's ass and screw themselves over at the same time just because they don't want to rock the boat.

Think of it this way: if you have the balls to push back, and you're justified in it, you might inspire 5 other people to do the same. That alone could save lives down the road, and people will respect you for it.

[spaceman]

Only in the ######ing Air Force would somebody lie to cover everyone else's ass and screw themselves over at the same time

Quote of the week nomination

[nsplayr]

...but that level of SA comes at a price and EMSEC isn't exactly a small factor in hostile airspace. Train like you fight and fight like you train.

What kind of C-17 mission hinges on the EMSEC considerations that would include a bluetooth device or a GPS puck in the window?? If you're really in hostile airspace, you may need to worry about your C-17-sized rader cross-section before you worry about your bluetooth receiver.

If we're in a situation where our survival depends on an EMSEC plan with such low tolerances (such that a BlueTooth device can betray our presence), then we have bigger problems.

Exactly.

Edited July 24, 2012 by nsplayr

[guineapigfury]

You have failed Your training shop which has also failed you, you have failed your DO who has also failed you, and ultimately, you have failed your squadron commander who has also failed you. By lying on your training reports, you gave your chain of command bad information which prevents them from getting the resources necessary for proper training since it is now "on paper" that your unit can accomplish its tasked training with the inadequate resources provided let them get away with it. The whole system was specifically designed to prevent this from happening.

FIFY, IMHO.

Edited July 25, 2012 by guineapigfury

[dream big]

FIFY, IMHO.

Perhaps... I have yet to lie on a training report, especially because the only reason I do fly is because I have beans left. To clarify, other copilots are sometimes told by higher ups they fly with to pencil whip their beans being told "this is the way it is done." To some higher ups, on paper, as long as we are beans complete we are "qualified." Maybe we should show some balls and refuse to log beans we didn't fly but we must also walk a fine line between being honest about our training and stepping outside of the "dumb copilot / Lt do what you are told" stigma that some of the higher ups in the sq create.

[Homestar]

...the "dumb copilot / Lt do what you are told" stigma that some of the higher ups in the sq create.

C'mon, you're a pilot and you're expected to feed the aircraft commander and your squadron commander proper information regardless of their rank. It's this mentality that creates an atmosphere where a copilot is too afraid to speak up and say, "hey, I don't think this is MacDill AFB, sir." If you're a qualified pilot, your crew and your leadership deserve better than this.

[17D_guy]

....stepping outside of the "dumb copilot / Lt do what you are told" stigma that some of the higher ups in the sq create.

Think that's called being a leader, but I don't have a Masters and/or Wings, so I wouldn't know. Never mind I've actually told O-5's, "No"

Wife is currently dealing with this in her Sq. I thought the Ops Sq's would be like my MSG ones, just more camaraderie, looking out for each other, & mission focus.

Holy shit was I wrong.

Instead it's O-3/4's acting like high school bitches, 0 top cover, and hypocrisy.

[matmacwc]

Perhaps... I have yet to lie on a training report, especially because the only reason I do fly is because I have beans left. To clarify, other copilots are sometimes told by higher ups they fly with to pencil whip their beans being told "this is the way it is done." To some higher ups, on paper, as long as we are beans complete we are "qualified." Maybe we should show some balls and refuse to log beans we didn't fly but we must also walk a fine line between being honest about our training and stepping outside of the "dumb copilot / Lt do what you are told" stigma that some of the higher ups in the sq create.

Using Captain Graphite is a easy way to stay current, but don't do it. If you are being told to log what you didn't do, simply refuse. "Higher ups" may push back once or twice, but they know they can't do shizzle to you past that. They are telling you to lie and they know it. Even better is to get the whole squadron on board, but that wold require leadership.

[Guest]

I am all for making sure the young guys have all the training they are supposed to get. However, you need to be ready to explain why you don't have your squares filled if someone back tracks sortie by sortie and asks if there was an opportunity and if not, why not.

It is a double edged sword to try to max out the requirements at the beginning of the quarter or half because you risk sitting on your ass the last 6-9 weeks so guys who were not as diligent get all the sorties to fill their remaining squares.

There's a difference between pencil whipping squares and working hard to try to squeeze every bit of value out of the first and last drop of JP-8 on every sortie and actually getting the things done.

The Flt CC, DO and CC are not evil if they make you justify why you don't have your squares...that's their job.

[Prozac]

On the flip side of the coin, don't be the dumbass who, when given ample opportunity, still cannot closeout his beans. Manage your own training. Logging all your beans and staying current should be the easy part. Staying proficient is a different story. If you don't feel like you're proficient let your training flight/ADOs/DO know. They may not be able to get you on a bunch of locals right away, but I've yet to see someone in these positions do nothing for a guy when he speaks up.

I am all for making sure the young guys have all the training they are supposed to get. However, you need to be ready to explain why you don't have your squares filled if someone back tracks sortie by sortie and asks if there was an opportunity and if not, why not.

It is a double edged sword to try to max out the requirements at the beginning of the quarter or half because you risk sitting on your ass the last 6-9 weeks so guys who were not as diligent get all the sorties to fill their remaining squares.

There's a difference between pencil whipping squares and working hard to try to squeeze every bit of value out of the first and last drop of JP-8 on every sortie and actually getting the things done.

The Flt CC, DO and CC are not evil if they make you justify why you don't have your squares...that's their job.

Beat me to it. Shack.

[BitteEinBit]

I'm going to go on the record and say "it is only a matter of time." Yes, the additional shit our young pilots have to deal with will continue to be causal in future mishaps. Now, to clarify, it is not literally "working on Masters degrees" that causes things like this, but rather the misguided focus we put on the importance of such things particularly for our younger pilots (CGOs). There is absolutely no reason for a Lt or young Capt (aircrew) to believe that getting a Masters degree to make Major is more more important than being the best at their primary job...which is flying. But that is the perception out there...why? Because not having an AAD has been proven to be factors in Capts not getting promoted to Major in recent boards. People react to that...and with the accellerated promotion schedule, you don't have a lot of time to be good AND have a Masters (there are many exceptions)...so, what do you think the focus is on these days of non-selection and non-continuation??? I've seen evaluators get the boot because of non-selection to Major, and the feedback they get from AFPC and CCs up the chain is that they didn't have a Masters degree. We (the Air Force) have created a climate where career progression corresponds directly to AADs and PME completion, and we continue to reward people who make that the number one priority...thus perpetuating the culture. Until we break the chain, I am predicting more incidents of this nature even if not as severe or newsworthy.

Flying is one of those skills that declines over time the less you do it. Ever seen an FGO from staff fly his one sortie a month? Very painful to watch sometimes...but at least (some) of the current pool of FGOs who did not have to focus on AADs as young CGOs can fall back on experience since flying was the focus back then from my experience...there are exceptions. But when we have a new generation of pilots coming up flying just enough to stay current and look good on paper focusing more on checking boxes to get promoted, they don't have the same level of experience to fall back on when they do stop flying for a while. I'm not saying this is a widespread problem, but the culture we are creating with misguided priorities certainly increases the potential IMO. From the competency level of pilots I've been flying with lately, I'm concerned when I see these same pilots take themselves off the schedule or take leave because they have a Masters paper to write.

Things that you have to do that are actually required such as your desk job, nonflying deployments, and PME (although that one isn't really "required" in practice), then I believe both the AIr Force and the PIC share the blame. The PIC needs to not be a pussy and push back, and the Air Force needs to back off of this culture where pushing back pretty much stratifies you as the bottom 5% of your peer group "problem child". It also doesn't help that, at least in the heavy world, upgrades are completely based on career progression, and are pretty much becoming a joke these days.

You hit the nail square on the noggin here. Unfortunately, the same culture that makes AADs a priority doesn't allow for pushback. All 'not being a pussy and pushing back' means is you become less strat-able and less promotable because you lack resilience and mission focus. It makes the 'leadership' look bad if their squadron keeps pushing back and not gettin'r done. We can't have any of that...thus the pencil whipping to look good on paper. No, it is going to take more bent metal to get anyone's attention. Forget preventative measures and risk mitigation...we need to see mishaps to take action.

But ultimately, it falls on the PIC. If you're too overstressed and overworked to fly a sortie safely, then it's your responsibility to fucking tell somebody. Why the hell do we even have officers in these aircraft if they're too afraid to take responsibility and call bullshit or push back when it's warranted? Personally, I think we have too many pilots just trying to have everything and do it all, unable to realize they have differing limits, and blaming their Air Force for their plight instead of taking a much-needed introspective look to figure out what their priorities are. I personally find that plenty of people would gladly trade safety for a good shot at making rank. Maybe I won't make Major. But I'm sure as hell not landing at the wrong airport.

Again, nail on the noggin. "I don't want to lose my strat and a chance for school...I'll just not fly, work on my Masters and decrease my chances of making any mistakes." Yes, you know who they are in the squadron...again, this is not a widespread problem yet, but the culture is spreading.

[snoopyeast]

Lots of good discussion. Back to the "Fly when you can, log what you need" mentality. As a very new copilot, one of the more seasoned IPs told me that as long as you had a sharp pencil, you should never be non-current. I thought that was a good idea for a few weeks and then realized I was actually hurting myself at the very least, bending metal and risking lives at the extreme end. You are short-changing yourself on training. There were numerous months as a copilot where I flew only once for about 6 hours. Most of that duration was spent with the autopilot on at 30,000 feet and maybe had an approach or two at the end. I'm not really sure how we call ourselves the worlds most powerful air force when our junior guys are getting 1 flight a month. On the other hand, I've seen guys land 30 min earlier than the duration allowed because they just wanted to be done flying for the day. You'd better believe that if they give me a jet for a 5.0, I'll fly that for duration allowed to maximize the sortie. If we continue to land a little early each time, all this is showing the higher ups is that we don't really need all these flying hours.

Another thing we're seeing as a result of less local flights is they are throwing 5 pilots on a jet, flying for 5 hours and calling it good. They are making RAP with a few approaches and a sortie with just maybe an hour or so in the seat. Or you get 5 minutes on the boom...but hurry up cause we have to get these other guys AR current as well. On paper, they are current and that looks great on the excel tracker. However we all know that currency does not equal proficiency. Guess we're just going to have to wait until they can figure out how to make a proficiency matrix and throw it on a powerpoint slide for the OG. This 'do more with less' BS does not work in the aviation world. I look around the squadron and wonder where our experience is....

[Whitman]

On the other hand, I've seen guys land 30 min earlier than the duration allowed because they just wanted to be done flying for the day. You'd better believe that if they give me a jet for a 5.0, I'll fly that for duration allowed to maximize the sortie

Couldn't agree more. 5.3 it is!

[Clayton Bigsby]

This is making the rounds today...

Edited July 26, 2012 by Clayton Bigsby

[Techsan]

This is making the rounds today...

Ouch! Probably not something you'd see posted above the urinal in a C-17 squadron.

[C17Driver]

This is making the rounds today...

That's a little funny.

[Snooter]

Every community has its mistakes and its...

[Cornholio5]

but the culture is spreading.

Could not agree more BitteEinBit. What we have going on here is a very slow decrease in airmanship and it is going to continue. I feel sorry for the FAIPS at my base because as soon as they finish PIT, they are thrown into the queep grindstone immediately and do not have an opportunity to become proficient as instructors. Their next assignment does not hinge on their flying ability. Rather, it hinges on the sheer amount of worthless queep they volunteer for. I seriously do not know how they do it---fly the line, do the queep, their desk job, "professional" Air Force organizations, masters, PME, etc. , etc. etc. While us MWS guys have a little bit less, there is still a LOT of crap we have to put up with. For this guy, at least, it is enough that I want to get out of this misguided mess at the first opportunity.

The issue of "careerism" is going to unfortunately bend metal someday. At my previous base, one of my "additional duties" was that of pilot scheduler. In that job I knew everything about everyone for the most part. I knew the Q3s, the bad pilots, the good pilots, the pilots no one wanted to fly with, etc. One issue that I saw, though, was that many of our Q3s and less-than-stellar aviators were the folks who put more emphasis on their desk jobs and career progression than being proficient in their airframe. This was not constant across the board, but most times, this was the case. I am not knocking guys who want to fight to stay in--but for the love of God, if you are going to be a pilot, KNOW your airframe and be as proficient in it as you can possibly be, because your crew's life is depending on your skill and experience.

I joined the service to "SERVE" my nation as a pilot. I uphold that and I put my flying job first. I care about my student's learning and want to ensure that they are passed along the knowledge that they need to be safe and proficient pilots. But, I am told that I need "mentoring" because I put being a pilot as my priority and not PME, Masters, etc. Many say that the only way to stop this is for the ones of us that complain about this to get into leadership positions and change it. I don't agree, it will take a huge servicewide culture shift to change this and I sure as hell don't want to waste more years of my life dealing with it.

Another issue I see is a severe lack of VFR flying skills. A lot of new pilots anymore (especially IFS graduates with no prior flying experience) do not know how to navigate an aircraft by looking out the window. I am not saying that a lack of VFR skills is what caused this near miss in Florida, but it would not surprise me either. Yes, we are required to fly IFR to the "max extent possible"--I get that and that should continue. Our new UPT students, though, should be getting a much better foundation for VFR and navigating by looking out the window and a sectional more (we only give them 2 sorties to navigate VFR). In my previous airframe we were descending into our overnight location in Europe and I told my copilot to just fly the visual approach because it was a clear and a million day in Germany. Wow, you would have thought I was about to beat him over the face with a golf shoe--suddenly he did not know what to do to fly a visual approach. I had to basically coach him through it until he picked up the VASI's on final. For all the airline guys out there, I hope this made you laugh.

I just hope this pilot shortage we all keep hearing about is actually going to happen. The Air Force has a great way of making awesome dream jobs suck...

[BQZip01]

What kind of C-17 mission hinges on the EMSEC considerations that would include a bluetooth device or a GPS puck in the window?? If you're really in hostile airspace, you may need to worry about your C-17-sized rader cross-section before you worry about your bluetooth receiver.

C-17 fine...B-2 not so much