C-17 Lands at Wrong Airport

[Guest]

Shack. Come on Rainman, you knew that.

No, I didn't. Probably should have but didn't. Thanks for the clarification.

[wacky]

We all talk about how "it's only a matter of time..." due to the excess demands placed on aircrews. Masters, xmas parties, PME, non-flying deployments, desk jobs x3, rushed upgrades, shitty scheduling and msn coord by TACC (like launching from home station out of bravo for a 24 hour day w/a 2200L alert time and an AR at the 12 hour point...)

This assumes it was an Active Duty crew that mistook the field for their intended destination. We are all task-saturated and our AFRC brothers and sisters have double duty as they manage the pull from their civilian employers and some of the AD-isms (PT, taskers, MICT, etc) that have unfortunately creeped into their lives.

There are commercially available tools for the ipad that overlay your present position on a sectional and approach plate like Foreflight HD combined with a Dual bluetooth GPS that I spent the money on last year and it has been a great tool. I can see my exact position on any taxi diagram in the CONUS and position on an approach plate.

Assuming they were direct from OCONUS, I am sure the powers that be will look at the fatigue tracker, pre-mission planning, briefings enroute/prior to descent, and luckily no one was hurt and the jet stopped on the available surface albeit the incorrect one.

We can lambast the crew all we want and I am sure their worst critics are going to be themselves.

[Techsan]

There are commercially available tools for the ipad that overlay your present position on a sectional and approach plate like Foreflight HD combined with a Dual bluetooth GPS that I spent the money on last year and it has been a great tool. I can see my exact position on any taxi diagram in the CONUS and position on an approach plate.

.

I agree that apps such as Foreflight are awesome and provide tons of SA. Hell, I use Foreflight above 10K in the cockpit too. I would just be smart using them, as they are not exactly "approved" IAW 202V3 and all. Especially using a bluetooth GPS receiver. Maybe someday AMC can hook up their crews with tools such as these to help prevent lapses on SA. Getting iPads are a step in the right direction, if it's used in its full capacity and not just as an eReader or to view FLIP.

[Buddy Spike]

I agree that apps such as Foreflight are awesome and provide tons of SA. Hell, I use Foreflight above 10K in the cockpit too. I would just be smart using them, as they are not exactly "approved" IAW 202V3 and all. Especially using a bluetooth GPS receiver. Maybe someday AMC can hook up their crews with tools such as these to help prevent lapses on SA. Getting iPads are a step in the right direction, if it's used in its full capacity and not just as an eReader or to view FLIP.

You don't need all that crap to land at the right airport. People have managed to find and land at the right places since before Al Gore invented the internet. This is basic airmanship.

[WeatherManC130]

People have managed to find and land at the right places since before Al Gore invented the internet.

I lol'd

[joe1234]

We all talk about how "it's only a matter of time..." due to the excess demands placed on aircrews. Masters, xmas parties, PME, non-flying deployments, desk jobs x3, rushed upgrades, shitty scheduling and msn coord by TACC (like launching from home station out of bravo for a 24 hour day w/a 2200L alert time and an AR at the 12 hour point...)

Then something like this happens, and we are all ready to crucify the guys. I myself am guilty. My first thought was "how in the hell...?" Then I stepped back, and realized that I think this was very nearly one of those "it's only a matter of time..." incidents. I'd say this should be a wake-up call. The line is stretched pretty thin, and it was lucky nobody was killed.

Of course, there is a fair amount of speculation in my comments, but I just can't for the life of me see how a qualified crew could make such a mistake without a chain of extenuating circumstances resulting from the excess demands stated in my second sentence (inexperience, fatigue, barely able to maintain proficiency, stress, etc...)

I both agree and disagree with you at the same time. Masters and xmas party planning are bullshit excuses. If you're burning yourself so bad that working on a masters causes you to land at the wrong airport, then you don't deserve to have the A code on any flight. If I told my DO that I need to cancel a high priority mission because I was working on my damn masters, he would tear me a new asshole. How is that any better if I just don't tell the DO and go land at the wrong airport? Totally on the PIC.

Things that you have to do that are actually required such as your desk job, nonflying deployments, and PME (although that one isn't really "required" in practice), then I believe both the AIr Force and the PIC share the blame. The PIC needs to not be a pussy and push back, and the Air Force needs to back off of this culture where pushing back pretty much stratifies you as the bottom 5% of your peer group "problem child". It also doesn't help that, at least in the heavy world, upgrades are completely based on career progression, and are pretty much becoming a joke these days. It used to be that having a K code meant you get some respect. Now, it's a crapshoot until you actually fly with that person.

But ultimately, it falls on the PIC. If you're too overstressed and overworked to fly a sortie safely, then it's your responsibility to fucking tell somebody. Why the hell do we even have officers in these aircraft if they're too afraid to take responsibility and call bullshit or push back when it's warranted? Personally, I think we have too many pilots just trying to have everything and do it all, unable to realize they have differing limits, and blaming their Air Force for their plight instead of taking a much-needed introspective look to figure out what their priorities are. I personally find that plenty of people would gladly trade safety for a good shot at making rank. Maybe I won't make Major. But I'm sure as hell not landing at the wrong airport.

[chim richalds]

The Air Force lost the balls to call out shitty pilots a long time ago. Now they just wait until an FEB or SIB calls them out so no commander has to get his hands dirty. Pussification of the Air Force is well under way.

[Batman]

It will be found that the crew was doing and talking about anything and everything except flying, instruments, and VID until it was was too late. All these comments about which instrument set-up (if even used) is giving them too much credit. There will be chatter in the cockpit (flight deck...forgive me, I'm old school) with checklists and briefings abbreviated because of previously said chatter and people not doing their jobs.

This crew will survive with their wings. Crew Q3s and loss of aircraft commander and instructor quals. Cancelled or terminated upgrades for minimum of 18-months. Sit on the bench for a few weeks while giving safety briefings and "There I was" recaps. Additional training sorties (sims) and re-check with DOV's chief at appropriate time. As for the squadron/wing/base...a hard look into crew make-up, any previous history or poor decision-making by those on crew (2nd or 3rd strikes could be FEB) and were all of them current/qualified/crew rested. The units and leadership can get a ton of scrutiny, particularly if there's any history of poor aircrew discipline or perception of it.

I imagine General Mattis--like all the others--were shocked at how close the C-17 came to a rest at the end of the runway. He probably understood the gravity of situation, however, having seen his share of truely grave situations and casualties probably didn't get into it with the crew before departing to McDill by vehicle.

Despite how awful those crewmembers felt and continue to feel about their mistake and ramifications on their flying future, they need to step back and appreciate that they didn't kill someone, themselves and still are here today.

[wacky]

I agree that apps such as Foreflight are awesome and provide tons of SA. Hell, I use Foreflight above 10K in the cockpit too. I would just be smart using them, as they are not exactly "approved" IAW 202V3 and all. Especially using a bluetooth GPS receiver. Maybe someday AMC can hook up their crews with tools such as these to help prevent lapses on SA. Getting iPads are a step in the right direction, if it's used in its full capacity and not just as an eReader or to view FLIP.

I had to research this topic and provide a reference for usage since the verbiage in the 202v3 references other regulations. In the most recent 'Aerial Certified Equipment' memo from ASC/ENAC, Bluetooth Class 2 operation is acceptable due to the low power output levels.

[ThreeHoler]

I had to research this topic and provide a reference for usage since the verbiage in the 202v3 references other regulations. In the most recent 'Aerial Certified Equipment' memo from ASC/ENAC, Bluetooth Class 2 operation is acceptable due to the low power output levels.

It is too bad the Stratus uses wifi. I guess I will just have to stick with my Dual.

Do you have a reference or link for this memo? I'd like to not have my shit pushed in for using my Dual BT GPS.

[xaarman]

We all talk about how "it's only a matter of time..." due to the excess demands placed on aircrews. Masters, xmas parties, PME, non-flying deployments, desk jobs x3, rushed upgrades, shitty scheduling and msn coord by TACC (like launching from home station out of bravo for a 24 hour day w/a 2200L alert time and an AR at the 12 hour point...)

Then something like this happens, and we are all ready to crucify the guys. I myself am guilty. My first thought was "how in the hell...?" Then I stepped back, and realized that I think this was very nearly one of those "it's only a matter of time..." incidents. I'd say this should be a wake-up call. The line is stretched pretty thin, and it was lucky nobody was killed.

Of course, there is a fair amount of speculation in my comments, but I just can't for the life of me see how a qualified crew could make such a mistake without a chain of extenuating circumstances resulting from the excess demands stated in my second sentence (inexperience, fatigue, barely able to maintain proficiency, stress, etc...)

This.

I both agree and disagree with you at the same time. Masters and xmas party planning are bullshit excuses. If you're burning yourself so bad that working on a masters causes you to land at the wrong airport, then you don't deserve to have the A code on any flight. If I told my DO that I need to cancel a high priority mission because I was working on my damn masters, he would tear me a new asshole. How is that any better if I just don't tell the DO and go land at the wrong airport? Totally on the PIC.

It's not about "I'm too tired to fly from working on my Masters", it's a slow deterioration of airmanship over time. I am not going to second guess these guys but I will be eagerly awaiting the SIB report, both for curiosuity and education.

Edited July 24, 2012 by xaarman

[sky_king]

it's a slow deterioration of airmanship over time.

I may not be able to fly the airplane, but you better believe I can go from MOPP2 to MOPP4 in under 2 minutes and then use my AETNA injector properly.

[Learjetter]

I don't think anyone wants to crucify anyone.

Everything worked out this time but imagine how easy it would be for this to have gone very wrong. Dead wrong.

I've seen a FWIC IP land gear up XC and the SIB found workload and buffoonery to be factors. He asked for and got no quarter in the Trough. He fucked up, he knew it and he admitted it. He did not lose his wings.

The BL is people make mistakes. The key is to fess up so everyone can learn from them.

Disagree. I think the brass smells blood in the water and AMC loves to make "examples" out of folks. This is a whole new AF from the one I entered 21 yrs ago. I would not be surprised if an FEB was convened.

[disgruntledemployee]

I'm hearing too many excuses, but hey, we don't know the facts. But don't make this situation light. This crew f u c k e d up and are damned lucky. The alternative could have been this headline, "C-17 crew kills Gen Mattis." There, does that make it sound serious enough? Crews, more so pilots, and even more so PICs, must have the ability to reprioritize. If they can't, then they need to find a different career.

And to any CP out there, if you don't have the balls to say "go around," learn or go do something else.

Out

Edit: I didn't say XXXX, I said Eff You Cee Kay.

Edited July 24, 2012 by disgruntledemployee

[Guest]

Disagree. I think the brass smells blood in the water and AMC loves to make "examples" out of folks. This is a whole new AF from the one I entered 21 yrs ago. I would not be surprised if an FEB was convened.

For clarification - I meant anyone on posting comments in this thread.

[Buddy Spike]

I may not be able to fly the airplane, but you better believe I can go from MOPP2 to MOPP4 in under 2 minutes and then use my AETNA injector properly.

Pardon my ignorance, but how do they make heavy bubbas simulate MOPP4 walking to the jet? Do they make you wear the David Clarks and put on your Aviators? Or do you get to put the hefty bag over your nugget too?

[Right Seat Driver]

Pardon my ignorance, but how do they make heavy bubbas simulate MOPP4 walking to the jet? Do they make you wear the David Clarks and put on your Aviators? Or do you get to put the hefty bag over your nugget too?

No Dave Clarks, yes on the hefty bag.

[BQZip01]

I'm sure it was, but when the range on your MFD is set to 100NM everything looks close.

Well, THERE'S your problem...

[pintail21]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/military/macdill/only-the-air-force-is-tight-lipped-about-c-17-wrong-airport-landing/1241869

"In the absence of facts, people are trading conspiracy theories, fueled in part by YouTube videos now viewed by more than 50,000 people.

Theory No. 1: The landing was all about testing C-17 capabilities for the upcoming Republican National Convention.

"That's a new one," Bressendorff responded.

"To the best of my knowledge. It was a routine mission."

Theory No. 2: President Obama.

After the cargo plane landed, workers in the airport lobby heard a woman screaming that she had seen him at the top of the stairs.

"She was on her cell phone telling friends," said Dymerski, the airport official.

"At first she said she saw on him come to the windows. It doesn't have any windows. Obama would have to be a pilot."

[BQZip01]

We can lambast the crew all we want and I am sure their worst critics are going to be themselves.

Oh, I'm sure there's some REMF somewhere that will top these guys and pop out of the woodwork to make a name for himself...

[BQZip01]

I agree that apps such as Foreflight are awesome and provide tons of SA. Hell, I use Foreflight above 10K in the cockpit too. I would just be smart using them, as they are not exactly "approved" IAW 202V3 and all. Especially using a bluetooth GPS receiver. Maybe someday AMC can hook up their crews with tools such as these to help prevent lapses on SA. Getting iPads are a step in the right direction, if it's used in its full capacity and not just as an eReader or to view FLIP.

I like the out-of-the-box (sts) thinking, but that level of SA comes at a price and EMSEC isn't exactly a small factor in hostile airspace. Train like you fight and fight like you train.

Edited July 24, 2012 by BQZip01

[AZwildcat]

[BQZip01]

Why the hell do we even have officers in these aircraft if they're too afraid to take responsibility and call bullshit or push back when it's warranted?

Because we've taken the decision-making out of the jet and into the OG's office, but left responsibility with the ACs. I've had pilots push back and throw the bullshit flag (hell, I've seen a copilot call bullshit, pack up his gear, and walk away from the jet instead of flying), but they are largely lambasted by leadership for such actions. I've made mistakes and stood before "the man", but I also know plenty who made minor mistakes and were hauled in front of the same person. When "perfection is the standard" everything that isn't perfection gets buried because no one wants to sacrifice an entire life's work/career over something they know is piddly BS

Thanks Ollie

[Gravedigger]

I think C-17s need CSOs.

[GovernmentMan]

I like the out-of-the-box (sts) thinking, but that level of SA comes at a price and EMSEC isn't exactly a small factor in hostile airspace. Train like you fight and fight like you train.

If we're in a situation where our survival depends on an EMSEC plan with such low tolerances (such that a BlueTooth device can betray our presence), then we have bigger problems.