Drone Pilots: We Don’t Get No Respect

[di1630]

Guys, this is a semantics game. If controlling an RQ-4 flight plan makes you a "pilot" then controlling a satellite is being an "astronaut".

I don't think there is any plan to send these guys thru UPT.

[Majestik Møøse]

An interesting decision. Soon the GH will have 11X, 18X, and EX doing the same job. Why not just commission the best E's (who probably already have a BA) and make them 18X's?

[guineapigfury]

30 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

An interesting decision. Soon the GH will have 11X, 18X, and EX doing the same job. Why not just commission the best E's (who probably already have a BA) and make them 18X's?

Because then you have to pay them officer money.

[ViperMan]

4 hours ago, AlifBaa said:

It could work well, but the AF still needs to tackle its retention issues and guard against the temptation to reduce standards.

<...>

As an ISR (RC-135 and MC-12, pilot type) guy, I've flown with a lot of truly magnificent enlisted aviators.  Many of them would be quite successful as pilots.  The AF can recruit them a lot more easily than officers (lower entry requirements), so this will provide a more easily achieved, lower AF-impact route to manning relief.  

The pay differential and inability to truly advance into a leadership role is also a factor.  Most of all, enlisted aviators realize their talents far surpass the average enlistee, yet the AF treats them like ignorant peons.

Bottom line:  You can definitely find E's who can play in the pilot world <...>The ones who make it through should be welcomed with open arms, then held to exactly the same standards as the O's.  If we do that, this is part of the solution.

As a pile-on / slightly different perspective to this, I'll say that the debate isn't really over whether someone who is enlisted could perform the task - of course they could, and maybe they should. I do disagree that having enlisted drone operators is the panacea that internet message board comments abound would have us believe, though. The notion that they "couldn't hack" the mission is a red-herring.

The real issue is that enlisted drone operators would have an even greater incentive for getting out than the currently fielded solution does (i.e. the officer core). The reason for this is because the work is the same, but the pay differential for the same skill set on the outside is even larger for TSgt Joe Schmo than it is for Maj Umpdenuts. Hence, in what universe does a TSgt S (who's being paid $42K/yr) look at that contract drone salary and decide he's going to stick it out for the long haul, but Maj U (who's paid > $100K/yr) decides the stress is just too great, and jumps out to increase his pay and QOL to a lesser extent than the TSgt? If anything, having enlisted drone pilots (may) would only exacerbate the current retention issues facing the drone fleet.

If it was simply a matter of throwing flesh at the solution then the AF could send these motivated Es through OTS (for what, like $12K?), and probably have to deal with less "institutional" upheaval than "plan B"...

[HU&W]

It could work well, but the AF still needs to tackle its retention issues and guard against the temptation to reduce standards.

<...>

As an ISR (RC-135 and MC-12, pilot type) guy, I've flown with a lot of truly magnificent enlisted aviators.  Many of them would be quite successful as pilots.  The AF can recruit them a lot more easily than officers (lower entry requirements), so this will provide a more easily achieved, lower AF-impact route to manning relief.  

The pay differential and inability to truly advance into a leadership role is also a factor.  Most of all, enlisted aviators realize their talents far surpass the average enlistee, yet the AF treats them like ignorant peons.

Bottom line:  You can definitely find E's who can play in the pilot world <...>The ones who make it through should be welcomed with open arms, then held to exactly the same standards as the O's.  If we do that, this is part of the solution.

As a pile-on / slightly different perspective to this, I'll say that the debate isn't really over whether someone who is enlisted could perform the task - of course they could, and maybe they should. I do disagree that having enlisted drone operators is the panacea that internet message board comments abound would have us believe, though. The notion that they "couldn't hack" the mission is a red-herring.

The real issue is that enlisted drone operators would have an even greater incentive for getting out than the currently fielded solution does (i.e. the officer core). The reason for this is because the work is the same, but the pay differential for the same skill set on the outside is even larger for TSgt Joe Schmo than it is for Maj Umpdenuts. Hence, in what universe does a TSgt S (who's being paid $42K/yr) look at that contract drone salary and decide he's going to stick it out for the long haul, but Maj U (who's paid > $100K/yr) decides the stress is just too great, and jumps out to increase his pay and QOL to a lesser extent than the TSgt? If anything, having enlisted drone pilots (may) would only exacerbate the current retention issues facing the drone fleet.

If it was simply a matter of throwing flesh at the solution then the AF could send these motivated Es through OTS (for what, like $12K?), and probably have to deal with less "institutional" upheaval than "plan B"...

Pile on. SO's have a tough time with recruiting and retention. Can you imagine how competitive recruiting for so would instantly become if with 1000 RPA hours, a clean record, an a BA, so's had a direct path to ots/18x? People would be falling over themselves to cross train.

[guineapigfury]

 

39 minutes ago, HU&W said:

Pile on. SO's have a tough time with recruiting and retention. Can you imagine how competitive recruiting for so would instantly become if with 1000 RPA hours, a clean record, an a BA, so's had a direct path to ots/18x? People would be falling over themselves to cross train.

They had this opportunity this year; very few took it.  Most of the SO's I know have no desire to crosstrain.  They can take one glance to the left and gaze upon misery and resentment clad in a flightsuit and decide this isn't for them.  Contractor SO pay is better than active duty pilot pay.

[Jaded]

Any progress in letting pilots operate more than one Drone simultaneously? My understanding is that the software basically already exists, but that there is some institutional resistance to the idea. 

[SurelySerious]

Any progress in letting pilots operate more than one Drone simultaneously? My understanding is that the software basically already exists, but that there is some institutional resistance to the idea. 

The interface blew, so we ditched it.

[ViperStud]

On December 17, 2015 at 8:46 AM, di1630 said:

Zero sympathy if they made that choice for career over flying.

I know a few dudes who fought to get back to fighters after RPAs and were fine. Jesus H....worried about making the 95% major cut so much you fly an RPA vs F-16?

And the wingman bit......what do you think happens after an AETC tour?

Same thing happens after an AETC tour, and anyone with their head on straight tries not to be the brand new guy on base when PRFs are due. Multiply the problem when you've been out of the entire community for years. Careerism and box-checking are bad, but it's not like the only other option is to say "fvck my career I'm flying!"

It's also not a matter of the community treating them poorly - the choice was given to them by AFPC while they were still in RPAs and they had to sort it out there. Commanders are put in a tough spot when guys show up and are becoming wingmen again while their peers are IPs. Not everything is black and white, dude.  

[BFM this]

Same thing happens after an AETC tour, and anyone with their head on straight tries not to be the brand new guy on base when PRFs are due. Multiply the problem when you've been out of the entire community for years. Careerism and box-checking are bad, but it's not like the only other option is to say "fvck my career I'm flying!"

It's also not a matter of the community treating them poorly - the choice was given to them by AFPC while they were still in RPAs and they had to sort it out there. Commanders are put in a tough spot when guys show up and are becoming wingmen again while their peers are IPs. Not everything is black and white, dude.  

Check your vol 1. Nowhere does it say that a guy coming back via tx is MQTd as a wingman. That's the commanders discretion, and I've seen plenty MQT right back to IP.

I've also seen the "kids table" approach, and I think it's a shitty way to treat returning experience.

And, oh yeah, fuck my career, I'm flying (though I've been lucky that circumstance has blunted the consequences of my poor choices)

[ViperStud]

I can count precisely 0 IPs I know that were sent to UAVs; maybe I just don't have a lot of friends or it's a community thing. My 3 buddies that I see as data points were all TAMI dudes, so regardless they were coming back as wingmen. I don't disagree with anything you are saying, just acknowledging that they were given the choice to go back with very shitty timing WRT going back and being relevant in the viper for a decade.  I say  to AFPC because I doubt that timing was a coincidence. "Give them the chance to go back, just so we can say we did..."

 

Agree on all points about treating it like a FAIP tour for those dropping them now. I just hope they send them to a manned cockpit after 3 years. Stretch that out to 5+ and you're handing these guys the same shit sandwich.  The fact that you don't give a shit about being a general doesn't necessarily mean that you're shameful for wanting to be a DO/CC in your eventual MWS; that'll be tough for these guys if they're kept in UAVs for 5+ years. 

[andy_lewis]

The drone pilot may not be risking their life, But they deserve respect. As there is a need of extra talent to use a drone with virtual visuals.

[Jaded]

What. 

[di1630]

Zero sympathy if they made that choice for career over flying.

I know a few dudes who fought to get back to fighters after RPAs and were fine. Jesus H....worried about making the 95% major cut so much you fly an RPA vs F-16?

And the wingman bit......what do you think happens after an AETC tour?

.....but it's not like the only other option is to say "fvck my career I'm flying!"

Not everything is black and white, dude.  

Well, if you want a flying career, you gotta choose to fly. If you are worried about making major as a pilot, you probably have other issues. I switched jets during both my prfs. It's only a duty title for your current qual.

[WayUp]

This honestly won't help anyone but the Air Force. Current guidance to us RQ-4 gents is that the MQ-1/9's are hurting so if you desire to return to flying after your run in RPAs, it's likely the magic eight ball at AFPC will hit "Outlook not so good." They dumped a standard metric shit ton of pilots from AMC into RPAs and we have heard different tales on if AMC wants us back or not(RQ-4 side). Rumor is they are trying to fill the two RQ-4 squadrons with enlisted pilots and only have officer pilots running the command/ip/shop chief positions. We have been told that we will likely see the first ones in 1 to 1.5 years. I'd like to be able to say I'll be glad to be on my way out but that may be with Creech orders in hand.

[nsplayr]

On 12/18/2015 at 2:42 AM, SurelySerious said:

The interface blew, so we ditched it.

Which is too bad.  Honestly all of the software and interfaces in the boxes are awful but GA controls the thing from tooth to tail so there's no really a big rush to make things better.  Would love to see that contract opened up to competition so better solutions that already exist would be fielded.

It also seems ridiculously obvious that one avenue to help with the manning crunch is to get that interface right i.e. having a single crew controls multiple aircraft.  Not sure why this is not more of a priority - it's easily feasible during long transit times especially.

Edited December 21, 2015 by nsplayr

[BFM this]

11 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Which is too bad.  Honestly all of the software and interfaces in the boxes are awful but GA controls the thing from tooth to tail so there's no really a big rush to make things better.  Would love to see that contract opened up to competition so better solutions that already exist would be fielded.

It also seems ridiculously obvious that one avenue to help with the manning crunch is to get that interface right i.e. having a single crew controls multiple aircraft.  Not sure why this is not more of a priority - it's easily feasible during long transit times especially.

In all fairness, GA is often painted into the corner of delivering a crap product.

GA: hey we have this new capability we're developing that

USAF: GREAT, FIELD IT NOW!

GA: well, like, yeah, but we weren't quite finished with the GUI and

USAF: don't care, need it now

Ops: wft? GA SUCKS!

Safety: [alarming mishap rate ensues] wtf? GA SUCKS!

OGV: what is this, like 8 -1 changes in the last month?  GA SUCKS!

But in all fairness, GA sucks.  But in a bigger sense, if weapons were developed by the same special olympics team that fielded this tech, troops would be hoofing around M-14s with picatinny rails.  [braces for the resident gun nutz to post picatinny equipped M-14 pics...]

[StoleIt]

1 hour ago, BFM this said:

[braces for the resident gun nutz to post picatinny equipped M-14 pics...]

 

[MooseAg03]

So apparently RPAs are going to start logging combat time? This is what the senior leadership gets out of the culture improvement process. It actually makes me even more disgruntled and angry because every 18Xer will now log the equivalent of what we used to do actually flying down range. Ridiculous.

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[Spaceballs]

[Majestik Møøse]

1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:

So apparently RPAs are going to start logging combat time? This is what the senior leadership gets out of the culture improvement process. It actually makes me even more disgruntled and angry because every 18Xer will now log the equivalent of what we used to do actually flying down range. Ridiculous.

That's dumb.  Everyone else will think so too, so hopefully the Air Force will get shamed into dumping it like they did the Distinguished Warfare Medal.  BTW, that medal actually makes sense to me, as long as it's placed below all combat medals.  If a UAV crew does something shit-hot above and beyond, they should get a medal for it, and since none of the other ones are applicable, why not.

[MooseAg03]

So apparently RPAs are going to start logging combat time? This is what the senior leadership gets out of the culture improvement process. It actually makes me even more disgruntled and angry because every 18Xer will now log the equivalent of what we used to do actually flying down range. Ridiculous.

That's dumb.  Everyone else will think so too, so hopefully the Air Force will get shamed into dumping it like they did the Distinguished Warfare Medal.  BTW, that medal actually makes sense to me, as long as it's placed below all combat medals.  If a UAV crew does something shit-hot above and beyond, they should get a medal for it, and since none of the other ones are applicable, why not.

I agree. I seriously hope logging combat time does not equate to Air Medals. It would make them become a joke like the Aerial Achievement Medals are now.

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[MooseAg03]

I agree. I seriously hope logging combat time does not equate to Air Medals. It would make them become a joke like the Aerial Achievement Medals are now.

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Too late. AWACS was logging combat time over Afghanistan many moons ago earning Air medals burning fossil fuels and not providing much contribution to the fight.

The key words there are "over Afghanistan." Better than sitting in a GCS in Indian Springs NV.

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[viper154]

44 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

The key words there are "over Afghanistan." Better than sitting in a GCS in Indian Springs NV.

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Clovis is a debatable combat zone depending on where you live. 

[di1630]

Ughh, who cares. You want real danger and death defying....go teach pilot training.

I have more air medals than my grandfather because he got shot down on his 17th mission over Tokyo. All air medals these days are inflated....damn shame.

Let the RPA guys have some recognition or take up real injustices where some fighter doing ISR at 20k over the Stan gets the same medal as the help guy getting shot at. Lots of injustices.

You probably aren't as cool as your ribbon rack makes you think.