Drone Pilots: We Don’t Get No Respect

[Jaded]

Wow, I knew it was bad, but didn't think it was that bad.

I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be stop lossed in a job you hate. 

[GKinnear]

The unspoken thought is that RPAs don't want shitty Pilots any more than shitty pilots want to be in RPAs. It's a compounding situation.

[MooseAg03]

Oh good where exactly where are we going to get the 3500+ personnel? We just spent the last two years kicking out people, specifically pilots. I'm sure we'll just continue to pillage other MWS's which are already short staffed.

This is my thought, how do they sell this to Congress after just electing to compress 5 years of cuts into 1? We just paid a lot of qualified guys to leave and they could have given us a huge head start on this expansion or even staffing Holloman. I feel like high level leadership should lose their jobs over the gross personnel mismanagement. Another example of the Air Force looking like a bunch of clowns to the rest of the nation.

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[guineapigfury]

13 hours ago, GKinnear said:

The unspoken thought is that RPAs don't want shitty Pilots any more than shitty pilots want to be in RPAs. It's a compounding situation.

A leper colony can want healthy people all day long, but the other islands will always ship their lepers first.

[pcola]

Wow, I knew it was bad, but didn't think it was that bad.

I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be stop lossed in a job you hate. 

I think it would feel a lot like the flu...often, if you get my drift. In other words, a stop-loss pilot is probably frequently DNIF and/or non-current. Not sure about the RPA world, but in all the communities I've been in over the years it takes quite a bit of personal initiative, to include the occasional pencil-whipping of certain beans in order to maintain currency/RAP/CMR. And I can't count the number of times I've sucked it up and hacked the mish when I probably should've been DNIF. Now, if I'm stop-lossed into my job, what's going to motivate me to lean forward like that? Nope, I can't see stop-loss being a sustainable solution for our looming manning crisis. It just opens up a whole new can of worms.

[Lawman]

Wow, I knew it was bad, but didn't think it was that bad. I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be stop lossed in a job you hate.

I think it would feel a lot like the flu...often, if you get my drift. In other words, a stop-loss pilot is probably frequently DNIF and/or non-current. Not sure about the RPA world, but in all the communities I've been in over the years it takes quite a bit of personal initiative, to include the occasional pencil-whipping of certain beans in order to maintain currency/RAP/CMR. And I can't count the number of times I've sucked it up and hacked the mish when I probably should've been DNIF. Now, if I'm stop-lossed into my job, what's going to motivate me to lean forward like that? Nope, I can't see stop-loss being a sustainable solution for our looming manning crisis. It just opens up a whole new can of worms.

We are seeing that with the Kiowa divestiture. Guys who are basically being handed a shit sandwich and told to eat it at the table with guys having steak and lobster by comparison.

Try motivating guys told "hey you're not in the top 1/3 o the OML and under 15 years so no transition to another airframe, we will get back to you with an ACAP date... By the way you have Brigade Staff Duty over Xmas eve."

I'm honestly surprised more conversations with those guys don't end with, " Hey Schmitty.... Why are you pouring that gas can all over the office?"

[Clark Griswold]

4 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:

This is my thought, how do they sell this to Congress after just electing to compress 5 years of cuts into 1? We just paid a lot of qualified guys to leave and they could have given us a huge head start on this expansion or even staffing Holloman. I feel like high level leadership should lose their jobs over the gross personnel mismanagement. Another example of the Air Force looking like a bunch of clowns to the rest of the nation.

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You can almost set your watch by the personnel PIO, it used to be every 5 years (ish) the AF would be at the top or bottom of the cycle, everyone get out or please everyone stay in, the only thing I have noticed different than when I came in back in the late 90's is that the frequency is now about every 3 years... the PIO that AFPC and A1 induce just gets worse as they keep moving the stick from full aft to full forward while simultaneously going idle to military, the stick being RIF boards and the throttles being the bonuses or lack thereof... they use personnel tools with opposite effects one right after each other making the frequency shorter and the amplitude higher

If you could have an hour to explain the concept of control and performance to A1, that might help but as most of them (that I have met) have no operational experience, have been in personnel all of their carriers and think it is just a spreadsheet to be manipulated at will, you will continue to get arbitrary / clueless / no real strategy just reaction to the problem du jour force structure decisions or God forbid, A3 asserts itself and we structure the AF around ops

18 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Oh good where exactly where are we going to get the 3500+ personnel? We just spent the last two years kicking out people, specifically pilots. I'm sure we'll just continue to pillage other MWS's which are already short staffed.

Get that long term orders check book out and call the Guard / Reserves, if you offered 3+ years of orders or back on AD to get that last 5 years or whatever they need to get in the check of the month club, you would get takers... if this CSAF wants to fix one problem (of many) before the new guy (or gal) takes the controls then focus on this ant and burn it up

Did some bar napkin math and I bet you could get 3500 bodies (even split of O's and E's) for 3 years with all costs included (including PCS, TDY and training) for 3 years for about $1.5 billion, less if you expand at RPA Guard / Reserve bases, that kicks the can down the road but shit take a step in the right direction, spend the money, get rid of a problem hemorrhaging our credibility to manage this mission 

The easy part is figuring whose ricebowl to steal from... not

Edited December 13, 2015 by Clark Griswold
Grammar and additional thought

[fire4effect]

19 hours ago, Jaded said:

Wow, I knew it was bad, but didn't think it was that bad.

I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be stop lossed in a job you hate. 

I knew lots in the 2005-2008 and beyond time frame....one troop I know was accepted and very shortly headed to law school just as the stop loss came down...he was a less than happy troop on that whole OIF deployment. I understand he eventually made it to law school but he was typical of a lot of lives that got derailed. Worst of all the ones who had similar plans but their last stop was Section 60 at Arlington..........just trying to lend a little perspective

Edited December 13, 2015 by fire4effect

[scoobs]

On November 28, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Ram said:

Shut the fuck up, Scoobs.

Is that a yes or no?

[SurelySerious]

Shut the fuck up, Scoobs.

Is that a yes or no?

[Herkasaurus]

On December 12, 2015 at 9:54 PM, MooseAg03 said:

... None of the 18Xers in my squadron plan to remain on active duty in RPAs, they are looking for other options like outside jobs or going to UPT.

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Yea, then getting an RPA after UPT.

[MooseAg03]

If that happens to any former 18Xer, I would fully expect them to literally burn down their UPT squadron post drop night.

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[Fuzz]

On December 14, 2015 at 7:31 PM, MooseAg03 said:

If that happens to any former 18Xer, I would fully expect them to literally burn down their UPT squadron post drop night.

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I always thought joking about sending Navs back to their prior airframes as copilots was funny but sending an 18X guy back (unless he fits that bill) is a no-go.

[di1630]

Wait, don't we need 18x's? I understand letting people crosstrain when we need more pilots and less navs but letting 18xs out to create a bigger shortfall of RPA types doesn't make sense does it?

[BFM this]

Sensing some confusion.

11's are all expected to go back to fly, unless they recat by request or some other specific circumstance (WIC); this includes UPT directs. HAF seems to have fully embraced this policy, recognizing the lesson learned and toxicity of former policies--I haven't heard any of the one-way-door bullshit recently (with the ramp-up, we will see if they keep their money where there mouth is).

Since I've been in/around the enterprise, I hadn't heard of 12's going back to their former communities, either by request or needs of their functional.

18's, (which 12's sometimes get lumped into for discussion purposes), would never be expected to go back to any former job, anymore than you would expect a late rated pilot to go back to CE or MX at some point.

[guineapigfury]

1 hour ago, BFM this said:

Sensing some confusion.

11's are all expected to go back to fly, unless they recat by request or some other specific circumstance (WIC); this includes UPT directs. HAF seems to have fully embraced this policy, recognizing the lesson learned and toxicity of former policies--I haven't heard any of the one-way-door bullshit recently (with the ramp-up, we will see if they keep their money where there mouth is).

Since I've been in/around the enterprise, I hadn't heard of 12's going back to their former communities, either by request or needs of their functional.

18's, (which 12's sometimes get lumped into for discussion purposes), would never be expected to go back to any former job, anymore than you would expect a late rated pilot to go back to CE or MX at some point.

This is the opposite of what I heard on the last VML webinar I listened to (spring 2015).  The gouge then was some, definitely not all, might go back "2018ish".  With the ramp-up and the impending 18Xodus, I find it difficult to believe they'll let anyone go in the next few years.   Where is this new info coming from?

[BFM this]

Sensing some confusion.

11's are all expected to go back to fly, unless they recat by request or some other specific circumstance (WIC); this includes UPT directs. HAF seems to have fully embraced this policy, recognizing the lesson learned and toxicity of former policies--I haven't heard any of the one-way-door bullshit recently (with the ramp-up, we will see if they keep their money where there mouth is).

Since I've been in/around the enterprise, I hadn't heard of 12's going back to their former communities, either by request or needs of their functional.

18's, (which 12's sometimes get lumped into for discussion purposes), would never be expected to go back to any former job, anymore than you would expect a late rated pilot to go back to CE or MX at some point.

This is the opposite of what I heard on the last VML webinar I listened to (spring 2015).  The gouge then was some, definitely not all, might go back "2018ish".  With the ramp-up and the impending 18Xodus, I find it difficult to believe they'll let anyone go in the next few years.   Where is this new info coming from?

The Tell would be an auto recat with the assignment (remember the recat board in 2010 with something like 75% "volunteers"...of course you do). Instead, 11-functionals still own the pilots. That's not to say that the functionals aren't using those pilots to fill another RPA bill (HMN)--hopefully that will continue to taper off.

Of the many long term metastatic problems that this 20+ year community is dealing with is a lack of development among the core talent group. Recycling 11's and kicking the 18x can down the road has been causal, among other things. But it's all good, there's plenty of shiny pennies to pluck from outside sources (Fighter Squadrons), and that will not continue to be a cyst on the ass of the enterprise...

[ViperStud]

"All expected to go back to fly" is total BS and I hope the young'uns understand it may not be that simple. I know at least two dudes that were offered the chance to go back to Vipers - and be wingmen when their Maj board hits. Big Blue is making it untenable for some 11X-types to go back; once you are so far deep into UAVs, these guys found it to be career suicide to go back to their prior platform. Get passed over and you're out - without the hours to get taken seriously by the majors. Just because the option exists to go back does not mean the AF makes it a palatable option. 

[MooseAg03]

Sensing some confusion.

11's are all expected to go back to fly, unless they recat by request or some other specific circumstance (WIC); this includes UPT directs. HAF seems to have fully embraced this policy, recognizing the lesson learned and toxicity of former policies--I haven't heard any of the one-way-door bullshit recently (with the ramp-up, we will see if they keep their money where there mouth is)..

Except the AFPC RPA assignments guy who came to Creech the other day specifically said a 'few' would be sent back (probably to white jets) next year on a competitive basis. His best guess was around 5 for next Fall's summer VML for 2017. I'm fairly certain not every crossflow 11X will make it back to a cockpit.

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[BFM this]

"All expected to go back to fly" is total BS and I hope the young'uns understand it may not be that simple. I know at least two dudes that were offered the chance to go back to Vipers - and be wingmen when their Maj board hits. Big Blue is making it untenable for some 11X-types to go back; once you are so far deep into UAVs, these guys found it to be career suicide to go back to their prior platform. Get passed over and you're out - without the hours to get taken seriously by the majors. Just because the option exists to go back does not mean the AF makes it a palatable option. 

Done properly, it should be no different than a white jet or ALO tour, MWS credibility wise. I saw a former FWIC IP come back from school and MQT as a 2FL--its community/commander specific. If the Viper world is getting their retreads back and putting them at the kids table, that's the choice the community/commander is making.

I've seen 11F's find a lot of success post RPA, either tx back and IPUG in about a year, AGR at either reserve or Guard units, or go on to some niche assignments like aggressor exchanges.

When it came time to make my desires known to my RPA commander, I and most of my peers weren't mewling over "being behind our peers" or, FFS, our airline potential; we just wanted to get back to our first love. We were lucky: being 11F's, big blue listened. And it appears that 11M's are starting to get some love as well, from what I'm hearing. On that note and the "kids table" mentality, I had a good friend go back to Altus as an IP from Creech--different communities treat their retreads differently.

[viper154]

As one of the recent UPT direct guys, they told us this RPA tour would count as our white jet tour. Kind of like being a FAIP without all the hours. Wooo. I would have been a 11M far as career is concerned. Flying is what I want to do, I would bite the bullet and risk getting passed over for major to get back in the jet. F em. If the AF don't want me I'll go collect my 6 figure check contracting.

[di1630]

....two dudes that were offered the chance to go back to Vipers - and be wingmen when their Maj board hits. Big Blue is making it untenable for some 11X-types to go back

Zero sympathy if they made that choice for career over flying.

I know a few dudes who fought to get back to fighters after RPAs and were fine. Jesus H....worried about making the 95% major cut so much you fly an RPA vs F-16?

And the wingman bit......what do you think happens after an AETC tour?

[BFM this]

Except the AFPC RPA assignments guy who came to Creech the other day specifically said a 'few' would be sent back (probably to white jets) next year on a competitive basis. His best guess was around 5 for next Fall's summer VML for 2017. I'm fairly certain not every crossflow 11X will make it back to a cockpit.

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You're right; if that myopic mindset prevails over the next 3-5 years, then the enterprise has no hope of recovery or establishing the objective 11/18 ratio, or a sustained leadership production rate.

To some degree, that's the canned message that every porch roadshow has pitched in the 10 years that I've been paying attention, actual results may vary.

[Azimuth]

Enlisted Global Hawk Pilots

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/637192/af-introduces-enlisted-global-hawk-pilots.aspx

[AlifBaa]

2 hours ago, Azimuth said:

Enlisted Global Hawk Pilots

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/637192/af-introduces-enlisted-global-hawk-pilots.aspx

TL/DR, but here's my point:  It could work well, but the AF still needs to tackle its retention issues and guard against the temptation to reduce standards.  Lower standards = lower performance.  

 

Long-Form Thoughts:

As an ISR (RC-135 and MC-12, pilot type) guy, I've flown with a lot of truly magnificent enlisted aviators.  Many of them would be quite successful as pilots.  The AF can recruit them a lot more easily than officers (lower entry requirements), so this will provide a more easily achieved, lower AF-impact route to manning relief.  

Having said that, many enlisted members join for different reasons than officers.  Many (most?) join without any interest in a long career.  The pay differential and inability to truly advance into a leadership role is also a factor.  Most of all, enlisted aviators realize their talents far surpass the average enlistee, yet the AF treats them like ignorant peons. When I first came into the RJ world, 85% of our first-term CO's would turn down $50K bonuses, fast-track promotion, language pay and flight pay.  The AF answer was to reduce training requirements and performance standards to get more cockpit time out of an enlistment.

That leads me to another experience I've had, flying the MC-12 with Army pilots (O and WO).  The Army dudes were all great, dedicated people, just like everyone in the AF.  Unfortunately, their quality was all over the map and completely inconsistent.  Many were fine pilots and a few were great, just like the AF bubbas.  What was different was that they had far more terrible pilots than you see out of the AF pipeline.    In general, the Army folks had less education, less training time and lower training standards.  The difference was stunning and immediately obvious to all involved (Army and AF; E, WO and O).  

 

Bottom line:  You can definitely find E's who can play in the pilot world, but you'll need to be selective and willing to fail people out.  The ones who make it through should be welcomed with open arms, then held to exactly the same standards as the O's.  If we do that, this is part of the solution.