herkbum Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) WRT guard/reserve help; I agree with making the guard/reserve units that are already flying drones more active in order to fill gaps... Explain. Many are already 24/7/365. Edited July 15, 2015 by herkbum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcraftllc Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I was just saying if there were any that weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
di1630 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Maybe the U.S. Could take some hints from the Italians: They get yanked from fighters or assigned RPAs out of UPT but while flying RPAS they bring trainers in once per qtr to stay current in an actual plane. Huge for morale. Also, they return their RPA guys to the cockpit so guys going there from fighters don't feel like it's a death sentence. Likewise, guys who go from UPT are motivated to perform well. If they do well they can go to a Eurofighter if qualified. I know their AF is small vs ours but we could learn a lot about how to treat people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I hate to see stuff like this, it's not just failure of leadership but failure to be descent human beings with sound morals.... The Army is in no position to go throwing stones after the raw deal we are giving the 58 community.... I look at both pictures and just thank god I didn't go scouts on selection day. What we are doing to our own people with this rack stack secret OML nobody is allowed to talk about, and holding dudes in purgatory over follow on assignments while they fly their aircraft out to Davis-Montham and do rotations through Korea ... Absolutely disgusting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcraftllc Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 The Army is in no position to go throwing stones after the raw deal we are giving the 58 community.... I look at both pictures and just thank god I didn't go scouts on selection day. What we are doing to our own people with this rack stack secret OML nobody is allowed to talk about, and holding dudes in purgatory over follow on assignments while they fly their aircraft out to Davis-Montham and do rotations through Korea ... Absolutely disgusting. Oh hell yeah man, hence the "the Army doesn't get much right about aviation" part. All that you mentioned and the whole ARI program moving Apaches out of the Guard and into Active Duty has been a total disaster. No branch (or organization of any kind really) is immune to politics or things that brief well and look good on paper. I'm just glad I've learned a lot and managed to dodge the bullets. I don't mean to sound ungrateful when I bitch about all this stuff, I really have do a good life in the military and love what I do, but some of this stuff is unnerving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M2 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yep, no respect for the drones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEVIL Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Maybe the U.S. Could take some hints from the Italians: They get yanked from fighters or assigned RPAs out of UPT but while flying RPAS they bring trainers in once per qtr to stay current in an actual plane. Huge for morale. Also, they return their RPA guys to the cockpit so guys going there from fighters don't feel like it's a death sentence. Likewise, guys who go from UPT are motivated to perform well. If they do well they can go to a Eurofighter if qualified. I know their AF is small vs ours but we could learn a lot about how to treat people. How hard would it really be to have a couple of T-6s out on the ramp, fly once a week. Not rocket surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KState_Poke22 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yep, no respect for the drones... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StxbkWLLTMI He's an American hero...in more ways than just destroying drones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 SAC used to have a program where pilots flew white jets for currency (similar to B-2 program, perhaps?), but it was cancelled amid budget cuts and a relatively high accident/buffoonery rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 How hard would it really be to have a couple of T-6s out on the ramp, fly once a week. Not rocket surgery. That would require leadership's allocuting to the assertions that: 1) morale is an actual primary duty competency-affecting driving factor and 2) morale is low amongst targeted groups. There is no indication senior leadership has any genuine interest to allocuting to either of those statements. Examples abound. SecAF talking in platitudes about the realities of ICBM work, the painful teeth pulling that was hearing about "pilot's being bored" as part of their excuse for the retention problem in front of Congress et al. Same goes for duty stations and the impact of PCS basing variances as a subset of this issue, both for stressed fields (which they can't even identify accurately without insulting the aggregate membership's intelligence) and for the general population at large. If I was an RPA victim, I'd SIE without batting an eye. A recat to a 4 year ADSC, GI bill and restarting my professional civilian life (flying or otherwise) upon exit, would still put me ahead in a decade's time than fulfilling an unwanted job for 10 years just to have to restart a process I'd be committed to starting the very day they gave me an RPA in the first place. Personally, that's why I went Guard/Reserve; as hard as I worked in high school and college/graduate school in order to position myself to merely gamble at the foot of the literal lottery that was getting a pilot slot, I just couldn't justify losing an entire decade's bet and getting pinched for an additional decade in a position where I wouldn't even be allowed to recover vocationally due to an extended military commitment. I would see no other place to go than SIE if they didn't offer me instant discharge or banked program like they offered folks in the early 90s. Game is chess, it ain't checkers. Take care of número uno...and I don't mean flight lead. Good luck to all. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 SAC used to have a program where pilots flew white jets for currency (similar to B-2 program, perhaps?), but it was cancelled amid budget cuts and a relatively high accident/buffoonery rate. ACES program Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KState_Poke22 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 That would require leadership's allocuting to the assertions that: 1) morale is an actual primary duty competency-affecting driving factor and 2) morale is low amongst targeted groups. There is no indication senior leadership has any genuine interest to allocuting to either of those statements. Examples abound. SecAF talking in platitudes about the realities of ICBM work, the painful teeth pulling that was hearing about "pilot's being bored" as part of their excuse for the retention problem in front of Congress et al. Same goes for duty stations and the impact of PCS basing variances as a subset of this issue, both for stressed fields (which they can't even identify accurately without insulting the aggregate membership's intelligence) and for the general population at large. If I was an RPA victim, I'd SIE without batting an eye. A recat to a 4 year ADSC, GI bill and restarting my professional civilian life (flying or otherwise) upon exit, would still put me ahead in a decade's time than fulfilling an unwanted job for 10 years just to have to restart a process I'd be committed to starting the very day they gave me an RPA in the first place. Personally, that's why I went Guard/Reserve; as hard as I worked in high school and college/graduate school in order to position myself to merely gamble at the foot of the literal lottery that was getting a pilot slot, I just couldn't justify losing an entire decade's bet and getting pinched for an additional decade in a position where I wouldn't even be allowed to recover vocationally due to an extended military commitment. I would see no other place to go than SIE if they didn't offer me instant discharge or banked program like they offered folks in the early 90s. Game is chess, it ain't checkers. Take care of número uno...and I don't mean flight lead. Good luck to all. Valid...but nowadays if you SIE from UPT, especially after dropping an RPA, there is a 0% chance you would be retained in the Air Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarHeelPilot Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 How hard would it really be to have a couple of T-6s out on the ramp, fly once a week. Not rocket surgery. Hell, a free once-a-week rental at the Aero Club would be better than nothing! The metal is already on the ramp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Valid...but nowadays if you SIE from UPT, especially after dropping an RPA, there is a 0% chance you would be retained in the Air Force. Even better! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hercster Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Oh but there are people who's goal is to fly RPAs. I've flown with them at the Academy. There's a shift happening in the younger generation. From my standpoint, it's polarizing. Cadets either want F-22s or RPAs, very few want airframes in between. For what it's worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Did banked pilots have a full 8 year ADSC? Edited July 16, 2015 by Jaded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebony zer Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Did anyone read the AF Times article on the RPA bonus? $15K per year for 5 or 9 years (but we'll cut your flight pay by $10,200 annually). That has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever read! If you sign up for an additional 5-9 years of ADSC's for $4,800 you're an idiot! Even if you love your job, giving up the ability to be a free agent for $4,800 is dumb in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learjetter Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Did banked pilots have a full 8 year ADSC? yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
di1630 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Cadets either want F-22s or RPAs, very few want airframes in between. For what it's worth... Geeeesus, I wish this were false...but I ran the summer program for 3 sets of 15 USAFA cadets, it was like pulling teeth to get (most of) them to fly fighter sims and go for c-130 flights. I remember thinking what a bunch of retarded pusses were being produced these days at that factory. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting RPAs though. It is the future at many levels. Edited July 16, 2015 by di1630 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 They may want to fly RPAs now, but 6 months on Ops will cure that. 90% of the 18Xers I know who aren't prior enlisted or late rate are planning to separate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) What You Don’t Hear in the Media: A Defense of Drones by Brian Glyn Williams http://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/159365 Edited July 18, 2015 by Sim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor666 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I can't see Big Blue guaranteeing manned aircraft follow ons like they did last time. The exodus of UPT directs over the past 2 years took a lot of experience out of RPAs, and I don't believe they would follow the same path this go round. That just creates another void to be filled 4-5 years from now. Anybody in this situation has to look at an RPA assignment out of UPT as a permanent RPA career. You may be able to sneak out and teach UPT later, but I don't believe they will pull these guys after one assignment and send them to a manned MWS. Each recipient of this shit sandwich will have to weigh all of their options and what is best for themselves and their family. I would have to say the time for Service Before Self has passed in this situation. How many times are we going to ask the young CGOs of our force to bear the burden of poor leadership and manning decisions? After spending 2+ years in the RPA world, if I was in that position right now of dropping an RPA, I would SIE as fast as I could and then retrain as finance/contracting/intel, serve my 4 years and peace out. You'll have a much better chance to fly real airplanes outside of the Air Force. Or you may open doors to other career options without incurring a 10 year commitment to rot inside a GCS. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Moose, if those studs did SIE I would think the chances of Big Blue making them pay them back for their training would be a real reality. It would not be hard for the Air Force to see that a dude is SIEing based off the fact that he got an RPA. I would say they are more likely to try and screw that guy over with making him pay back the money wasted on him as an eye for an eye type of deal. Not saying that I disagree with your point at all. SIE looks like a better plan then getting ed for 10 years but you might be forced to pay a few hundred grand for that decision to SIE is all that I'm saying. You are damned if you do, damned if you don't. Would you rather be damned for 4 more years and a few hundred thousand dollars or damned for a 10 year commitment and not a few hundred thousand dollars? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseAg03 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I could see that happening to make an example out of someone who tried to do that. Not sure what the regs are if you don't finish the training and obtain the wings and associated ADSC. What's the difference between SIE and hooking your mission fam check ride twice and washing out late in training? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor666 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I could see that happening to make an example out of someone who tried to do that. Not sure what the regs are if you don't finish the training and obtain the wings and associated ADSC. What's the difference between SIE and hooking your mission fam check ride twice and washing out late in training? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Well I've seen a few dudes this year DOR and they got reclassed into pretty much what they wanted as non rated careers. The only difference for your above scenario is the obvious fact that the dude is capable of graduating but says I'm not going to eat your shit sandwich and therefore leaving this place verses the guy who looked like he tried his hardest and just couldn't make it. Probably get ed by Big Blue pulling the first stunt and just reclassed pulling the second one. As for the reg, I really don't know. All I remember is when I graduated from good ole' USAFA, I signed an ADSC that said something along the lines of 10 years since I got pilot as an AFSC. Not sure if that writing was saying if once you graduated and earned your wings that was your ADSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I could see that happening to make an example out of someone who tried to do that. Not sure what the regs are if you don't finish the training and obtain the wings and associated ADSC. What's the difference between SIE and hooking your mission fam check ride twice and washing out late in training? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I was in UPT when the UPT direct clownshow kicked off the first time. We were threatened with courts martial if we tried option B. Not sure if they would (or could) have followed through or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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