Drone Pilots: We Don’t Get No Respect

[Sim]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/08/22/drone-pilots-suffer-ptsd-just-like-those-in-combat/?intcmp=obnetwork

I'll just leave this here.

Bah. No one answers to those questions honestly.

[BFM this]

I think the sleep thing is a much bigger part of it than people realize. When you're deployed at least you get to sleep in your crew rest. I've seen dudes showing up like zombies because they had family stuff to do when they also needed to be sleeping. I don't know what the fix is. Alot of our guys thought the answer was the VSP and I don't blame them.

MCE at Patrick, and another at Hickam (Or Guam, even). Not that this has EVER been suggested before, mind you. Creech: it's vital like the F-35, but more painful.

Fuck it: my fini is tomorrow...barely care.

[nrodgsxr]

I think the sleep thing is a much bigger part of it than people realize. When you're deployed at least you get to sleep in your crew rest. I've seen dudes showing up like zombies because they had family stuff to do when they also needed to be sleeping. I don't know what the fix is. Alot of our guys thought the answer was the VSP and I don't blame them.

The answer is simple. One base in hickam and the other in Mildenhall or ramstein/spangdhalem. Boom you just eliminated midnight shift while fixing the manning problem by creating two good deal locations.

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[ShavedDogsAss]

The answer is simple. One base in hickam and the other in Mildenhall or ramstein/spangdhalem. Boom you just eliminated midnight shift while fixing the manning problem by creating two good deal locations.

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On the surface, that would work. Though, other countries tend to get a bit testi about the US conducting controversial missions from their soil. More so for those big scary drone assassins.

It's possible, but it would take more than a bit of political effort to accomplish. Something the leadership has not been falling over themselves to do. Especially if its only to benefit the seat meat crews.

[nrodgsxr]

On the surface, that would work. Though, other countries tend to get a bit testi about the US conducting controversial missions from their soil. More so for those big scary drone assassins.

It's possible, but it would take more than a bit of political effort to accomplish. Something the leadership has not been falling over themselves to do. Especially if its only to benefit the seat meat crews.

Well hickam is in 'Merica and the Brits have their own drone assassins.

But I concur getting anyone to give a damn about drone operators is the real problem.

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[Rmarsh]

These are first world problems, pilot problems. Nobody asks the FSS troops if they get any respect, because nobody cares. RPA crews do their jobs just like everyone else, and 'giving a damn' about them isn't really important...Herk guys don't get too ruffled when people call them 'trash haulers', and the -22 guys don't get too bothered when people call them 'Air show queens', do they? Same thing here.

[brabus]

Nobody asks the FSS troops if they get any respect, because nobody cares. RPA crews do their jobs just like everyone else, and 'giving a damn' about them isn't really important

A noble argument, but the reality is the difference in capability requirement and time/cost to train a RPA dude is vastly more than a one-each FSS dude. Additionally, the AF doesn't have a problem filling FSS slots/stand to lose a crushing amount of experience if dude's decide to get out. So in reality, it actually would pay dividends to think about things such as where RPA dudes live/operate. They're not better human beings or above "the suck," but they're job/manning situation cannot be compared to the FSS.

[Rmarsh]

Well as one of them I can certainly relate...I agree with you and maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I only meant to say that as a former manned pilot- turned-RPA-pilot, everyone that I work with now is just as willing and eager to do their best working 24/7 at home as I and many others worked 24/7 deployed, only now we aren't, we get to drink booze and bang it out when we get home. Again I agree, morale matters and the toll on RPA crews is as obvious to me as anyone else, but I was only comparing our community to the flying Air Force at large. All involved give very much in the flying game.

[matmacwc]

MCE at Patrick, and another at Hickam (Or Guam, even). Not that this has EVER been suggested before, mind you. Creech: it's vital like the F-35, but more painful.

Fuck it: my fini is tomorrow...barely care.

Then what?

[Rmarsh]

Then what?

Airlines, Customs and Border Patrol, whatever... We'll still be here

[BFM this]

Then what?

END T-38

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[hindsight2020]

END T-38

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

Congrats! Heading to 38 PIT (then back to Mejico...) myself. See ya there.

[Rmarsh]

END T-38

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

Nice, I stand corrected... Love me some Oklahoma, enjoy OKC when you get the chance

[nrodgsxr]

These are first world problems, pilot problems. Nobody asks the FSS troops if they get any respect, because nobody cares. RPA crews do their jobs just like everyone else, and 'giving a damn' about them isn't really important...Herk guys don't get too ruffled when people call them 'trash haulers', and the -22 guys don't get too bothered when people call them 'Air show queens', do they? Same thing here.

The real problem isn't RPA operator "butt hurt" but rather that there is no retention once the ADSCs are up leading to zero experience in the combat units. I don't think the -22s have those kind of exp problems

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[Magellan]

The real problem isn't RPA operator "butt hurt" but rather that there is no retention once the ADSCs are up leading to zero experience in the combat units. I don't think the -22s have those kind of exp problems

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This isn't entirely true. The problem is that Creech is the "BEST" RPA location so there is lots of guys with combat experience in contractor, OTE, "day walker" OSS/group/wing positions, and tons of dudes that make the jump to full time Guard and Reserve gigs. As a result of this Creech is in better shape now than it has ever been in my opinion. However, I still don't think anyone here would define it as good. What is crushing the retention is Cannon and Holloman continue to be a manning drain on the active duty force, because most people don't want to live there. This means they 7 day opt when they get an assignment there, or they punch as soon as their ASDC is up so they can relocate to a better location ASAP.

I think if they put active duty MCE squadrons at DM, Herbie, and San Antonio the retention problem would fix itself even with the shift work grind.

[nrodgsxr]

This isn't entirely true. The problem is that Creech is the "BEST" RPA location so there is lots of guys with combat experience in contractor, OTE, "day walker" OSS/group/wing positions, and tons of dudes that make the jump to full time Guard and Reserve gigs. As a result of this Creech is in better shape now than it has ever been in my opinion. However, I still don't think anyone here would define it as good. What is crushing the retention is Cannon and Holloman continue to be a manning drain on the active duty force, because most people don't want to live there. This means they 7 day opt when they get an assignment there, or they punch as soon as their ASDC is up so they can relocate to a better location ASAP.

I think if they put active duty MCE squadrons at DM, Herbie, and San Antonio the retention problem would fix itself even with the shift work grind.

I disagree on the exp but would rather not get into details in an open forum.

I'm not sure if Holloman is the real issue either although it definitely doesn't help. Other communities have bad locations but it doesn't mean all the pilots separate as soon as they get an assignment there. Altus should be a manning killer for 17s and 135s if that was the case.

what about all the dudes at Holloman who separate once they complete their ADSC there? The next likely step is to go to Creech but they would rather just quit.

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[euro2005]

I got a couple of friends who are RPA pilots...there's definitely a continum of how much they like it. One particular friend likes the mission but he hates Cannon. He's been here for 4 years now or something. He's been wanting to leave and they keep dicking him around in terms of the ADSC and leaving Cannon. Because of this he's trying to leave the AF. He's been in close to ten years and worked in CE before he transitioned. The other folks I know are much newer to the AF like myself. They aren't completely jaded but they have said morale sucks in their squadrons.

[ruckerstud]

The issue is in part Cannon/Holloman, but there are bigger issues, otherwise Holloman would be like Minot where folks who like small towns and to hunt and fish would homestead there. The bigger issues the Air Force needs to fix is that even 6 years after the TAMI/a 10,000% growth in the number of CAPs, a dude who has flown the line for that whole time doesn't have a realistic chance of being a CC of an ops squadron let alone ever commanding a wing they are part of, because leadership is still bringing in dudes from other communities to get them command. The other issue is that after 4-8 years of shift work, there is no light at the end of the tunnel in terms of being able to go to a staff gig/not deployed ops tempo. Holloman while monday through friday still routinely has show times ranging from 0200 to 2000 on any given day, meaning seeing your kids gets tricky. The last issue is that at the HAF level, and I am still not sure how this happens, the A3 has decided to let the A2/some Army dude do whatever he wants with RPA dudes. Having to listen to some intel dude tell you how to fly for one day is annoying, debriefing the issue for 6 years and not getting anywhere while living with folks being more interested in flying your plane for you than getting results will break down a person. While having the choice to go to some more desirable locations might mitigate some of this, you still have to deal with these issues for somewhere between half your day and half your waking hours, so maybe the AF wants to put some energy into these issues, rather than the politics of keeping bases by giving them RPA missions.

[Darth]

More RPA CAPs. Dedicated to every unit who needs one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-only-way-to-defeat-the-islamic-state/2014/09/05/4b2d7bd4-3459-11e4-a723-fa3895a25d02_story.html

If only the USAF and USN would step up and do it.

[MooseAg03]

I'm not sure if Holloman is the real issue either although it definitely doesn't help. Other communities have bad locations but it doesn't mean all the pilots separate as soon as they get an assignment there. Altus should be a manning killer for 17s and 135s if that was the case.

what about all the dudes at Holloman who separate once they complete their ADSC there? The next likely step is to go to Creech but they would rather just quit.

Those flying at Altus are still flying and that's the key. I was pulled out of my MWS and sent to Creech and I can honestly say if I'm sent to Holloman next, I will immediately try to Palace Chase and if unsuccessful I will punch at the end of my ADSC. I'm hoping the recent mass exodus of pilots in actual flying billets through VSP will create a vacuum that will require dudes like me to fill. I'd be disappointed if my active duty career ended before getting the opportunity to teach the next generation at UPT or going back to being an aircraft commander in AMC, but I have absolutely no desire to spend 8 years of my life in a shipping container.

[pintail21]

Other communities have bad locations but it doesn't mean all the pilots separate as soon as they get an assignment there. Altus should be a manning killer for 17s and 135s if that was the case.

what about all the dudes at Holloman who separate once they complete their ADSC there? The next likely step is to go to Creech but they would rather just quit.

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So you're saying that going to Altus while still having Honolulu, Seattle, Charleston, Anchorage, (or Mildenhall, Scott, Wichita, Spokane, etc) on the horizon is comparable to hoping you can leave for Clovis, NM, Whiteman, MO, or Creech?

[Azimuth]

Those flying at Altus are still flying and that's the key.

Spoken like someone who never taught at LTS. I spent four years in that shit hole and would punch, with 13-years in if sent back. The grass isn't always greener.

[MooseAg03]

Spoken like someone who never taught at LTS. I spent four years in that shit hole and would punch, with 13-years in if sent back. The grass isn't always greener.

You single? Having been at Creech for a year, I would gladly spend my next four at Altus. Accumulating IP hours in a heavy jet, instead of wasting my life "operating" the MQ-9. I can make anywhere livable with the fam. Edited September 10, 2014 by MooseAg03

[Azimuth]

You single? Having been at Creech for a year, I would gladly spend my next four at Altus. Accumulating IP hours in a heavy jet, instead of wasting my life "operating" the MQ-9. I can make anywhere livable with the fam.

Well you might get your chance. Right when I was leaving this summer 20+ IP's in the 58th VSP'd or TERA'd out. The grass isn't always greener. The RPA out of UPT guys found out that their "hours" didn't count for anything when they got paroled to an MDS. So they'll be meeting their Maj boards as copilots, maybe AC's.

[MooseAg03]

Well you might get your chance. Right when I was leaving this summer 20+ IP's in the 58th VSP'd or TERA'd out. The grass isn't always greener. The RPA out of UPT guys found out that their "hours" didn't count for anything when they got paroled to an MDS. So they'll be meeting their Maj boards as copilots, maybe AC's.

I understand, I know C-17s are about to get hammered with a ridiculous ops tempo. My next assignment will likely be my last, and I'd like to get back and build time to prepare for my next career outside of active duty.