Fud Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Ya, a huge part going into my this decision is that I'm a single dude going from Hurby to Cannon. I haven't been there before and don't want to quite judge the place yet, but I'm thinking it's gonna be hard to put a price on throwing my middle finger out of the window of my own plane as I leave that place every weekend. Still, I want to be smart about it and not put myself into huge amounts of debt just trying to stay sane, so that's why I made this thread. I also appreciate all of the well thought out responses. You could also look at homebuilt options like a Sonex. It takes automobile gasoline, and is about 16K new. I'm not sure how much they cost if you get it pre-built or used though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceman Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 You could also look at homebuilt options like a Sonex. It takes automobile gasoline, and is about 16K new. I'm not sure how much they cost if you get it pre-built or used though. Speaking of which, I'm picking up my Waiex tail kit later this week!!! Pretty much due to the reasons listed in this thread, I decided that building my own would be the only way I could ever really afford to own a plane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fud Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Speaking of which, I'm picking up my Waiex tail kit later this week!!! Pretty much due to the reasons listed in this thread, I decided that building my own would be the only way I could ever really afford to own a plane. Let me know how that works out for you. I am starting to seriously consider doing that at my next duty location. I have also looked at getting an Icon A5 once they start getting sold second hand. I really like their company philosophy, and you can store both Sonex and icon in your garage. That defers the hangar cost, but it could be a pain in the ass to take it to a airport every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceman Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 you can store both Sonex and icon in your garage. That defers the hangar cost, but it could be a pain in the ass to take it to a airport every day. I agree, although I'd be a little afraid that it would be such a pain that I'd get sick of doing it and end up hardly using it (like storing a boat in your driveway). I think the way to go would be to share a hanger with a couple other dudes, cause you could definitely squeeze a few of these tiny planes in one hanger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBock Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 The first few posts in this thread pretty much nailed the point so I wasn't going to add anything. But it sort of veered off in a different direction. Owning an airplane is like owning any other 'big boy toy'. You're probably not going to make any money owning an airplane, boat, fast car, or any other hobby unless its your full-time job. It'll very rarely be cheaper than flying commercial or driving. You're paying extra for the convienience or the fun of the hobby. The costs the other posters listed are correct. If you do it right, owning an airplane will cost you about what a mortgage payment would be. Let me repeat myself - you're paying for the convenience. The only piece of advice I could add is this: Do lots, and lots, and lots of research before you buy. And if you say, "yeah, I've done all the research".... go and do some more research. Go look on aerotrader and barnstormers and find someone selling an airplane locally. Go look at it and talk to the seller - even if it's not the airplane you want. You'll be amazed at how much you learn. Then go look at an airplane you would buy. Then walk away. Never buy the first thing you look at. With a lot of knowledge, a ton of patience, and a little luck, you'll bring home an airplane you won't have to drop a dime into for at least a year. It's a buyers market right now and it will be for the foreseeable future. I see airplanes with great avionics packages and less than 700 TBO for cheap, and the sellers seem to keep dropping the price when it doesn't sell in 30 days. Here are some more tips: - Older airplanes are way cheap. A handful have less than 2000 hours on the airframe. That's basically a new old airplane. - You don't want an airplane that was ever used as a trainer. - If you do find an old airplane with low time, make sure it was flown regularly. Hangar queens = big $$$$ over a short amount of time. - Damage history is okay. Most of the time damage was repaired to new or "like new" condition and it can be used as leverage in price negotiation. - A single engine airplane with >1500 TBO is going to seem crazy cheap, but you'll pay for the $20-$25K overhaul in a few years or have to sell it for a huge loss. You're always better off paying a little more for an airplane with <1000 TBO and not having to worry about the overhaul for a long while, if ever. - Find out what ADs are out there for the airplane. For example, if you have to pay $100 for a prop inspection every year, find an airplane with an upgraded prop without the AD. It'll save you in the long-run. - MX logbooks. Check 'em and have an A&P check 'em. - If you do buy, try to get a fresh annual (as opposed to a pre-buy inspection) as part of the deal. If you have to, pay half the inspection costs (but the seller should pay for any required repairs). It'll be worth the investment. - Don't buy an airplane with fancy avionics (or think you can always upgrade, you probably can't afford it anyway). A GNS-430 and/or a panel mounted Garmin 396 is a poor man's G-1000. Similar capabilities at only a fraction of the cost. - Yes, airplane parts are bought and sold in terms of AMU - aviation monitary unit. 1 AMU = $1K. If that's a shock, you probably can't buy an airplane. Preventative MX and smart shopping is the best prevention for airplane part sticker shock. - Finally, build a spreadsheet to break down hourly costs and fixed costs vs hours you'll fly per year. If you fly 100 hours per year a C-172 may only cost you $120/hour which is comparable to a rental. If you only fly 50 hours per year, you might as well rent. - If you don't plan on flying whatever it takes to get the hourly costs down, look for a fractional ownership. It's the next best thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKopack Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I don't pretend to know the full answer, but I know part of it: FAA certification of parts. I worked for a company who produced captive screws. They did pretty well, and are doing good business, even in today's market. The owner said that he had been approached about producing some parts for aircraft, but he declined because the FAA certification process was so long, expensive, and paper-laden. When I was going to A&P school back in the early 90's we worked on a customer's Cessna 150 as a group "lab project". She reported that she needed a new generator, and one of my partners (former AF and former Ford dealership tech) took one look at it and said, "Easy, it's an alternator off a mid-80's Escort," and quoted the part number out of his head. We looked it up and it was the same PN with a "-A". The only differences we could find were the "FAA PMA Approved" tag, and the difference between $65 at the dealership and $500+ from the aviation supplier... And on top of that, while an A&P isn't authorized to open a generator case, as I recall her original generator may have been repaired with $10 worth of diodes. Never been a pilot, who knows, maybe one day. My eight-year old is ready to go though. He took an EAA "Young Eagles" flight on Saturday in a sharp little RV-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 She reported that she needed a new generator, and one of my partners (former AF and former Ford dealership tech) took one look at it and said, "Easy, it's an alternator off a mid-80's Escort," and quoted the part number out of his head. We looked it up and it was the same PN with a "-A". The only differences we could find were the "FAA PMA Approved" tag, and the difference between $65 at the dealership and $500+ from the aviation supplier... And on top of that, while an A&P isn't authorized to open a generator case, as I recall her original generator may have been repaired with $10 worth of diodes. Pretty standard. Lots of GA parts are automotive parts with FAA approval...and outrageous price tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sputnik Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I know the square root of f all about GA, but I won't let that stop me. One of my neighbors owns a quarter share in a 172. The other three guys never fly it, so it's basically his airplane, I think he paid $10k for his share. The bad side is that because the other three don't fly it, they tend to go cheap on annuals, etc. He does what he legally can himself (I'm not 100% sure his defination of legal matches the FAA) and they defer the nice to have stuff. Short version, he gets access to plane whenever he wants for gas and quarter share of [a dubiously performed] annual. He's pretty happy, sounds like a good deal. Course I'd never get in the thing, but he seems happy with it. Generally speaking, I'm very dubious of shared ownership, hell I won't join a HOA, a condo seems like facism (or communism?) but it seems like its worked ok for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 OK, here's something I've never really understood - why do airplanes and their parts cost so much? The FAA certification process is a big part. Another is the after-effect of lawsuits from families of dead pilots/pax suing everyone connected to the mishap flight, and the judgements of courts/juries with no clue that a day-VFR-only pilot knowingly pressing into "hard IMC", or a dumbass trying to fly a 4hr leg with only 3hrs of gas aboard, is a recipe for fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 GBock nailed it. I didn't want to quote his entire post. Owning gives you freedom. What is that worth to you? If you just want to bore holes in the sky one hour at a time, renting is the way to go. If you want to fly multi-day trips or fly that one beautiful weekend morning in January when the rental is booked, owning is for you. Just make sure you can afford the entire price tag up front. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Termy Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 My father in law just bought a beautiful Cessna 170. Why did he buy it? I loved his answer: "The guy sold it because he is 75 years old. I bought it because I am 75 years old!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cjhawks Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Anybody got any expereience with homebuilts/kit a/c? Is the work worth it? How much can you actually do yourself without a whole bunch of specialized tools?, etc. I have a dragonfly Mk. 2 sitting in my dad's garage collecting dust that we picked up for free (long story) and I would like to put it together. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) Anybody got any expereience with homebuilts/kit a/c? Is the work worth it? How much can you actually do yourself without a whole bunch of specialized tools?, etc. I have a dragonfly Mk. 2 sitting in my dad's garage collecting dust that we picked up for free (long story) and I would like to put it together. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. The website of the current design rights owner (Dart Industries) is a dead link. This is one of the few decent builder's websites I found in a brief Google search, and truth be told, there ain't much here (as compared to modern kits and builder's websites). Designed to be powered by an automotive conversion engine (which I'm personally not a fan of). Composites are a shit-ton of labor to get right, and are very environment-sensitive. Temperature and humidity play a not-insignificant part in the strength & durability of a composite layup. Practice working with resin & cloth a lot before attempting layups you'll be trusting your life to. Required consumables for composite construction are numerous. Mixing cups & sticks, resin rollers, sandpaper, peel-ply, scrim cloth, gloves, sandpaper, dust masks, disposable coveralls (or plenty of clothes you don't mind ruining), sandpaper, resin dispenser(s), solvents... not to mention lots of fiberglass resin and cloth. And sandpaper. I won't even get into vacuum-bagging equipment... **EDIT - Dragonfly owners/builders Yahoo Group . Fixed grammar and spelins. Edited October 15, 2011 by JarheadBoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
di1630 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 This post got me thinking since I only flew my plane about 50 hours last year due to ops tempo so I punched up the numbers on my plane to include hanger, annual, insurance and mx, gas and oil. using my real numbers it cost me $128 an hour to operate. That's without an engine reserve. The local FBO rents an uninsured wet 172 that cruises 15 knots slower and carries 500lbs less for $120 an hour so I am happy with my ability to fly wherever/whenever I want. Those numbers are with an owner assist annual and me doing as much mx as the regs allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobsan Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 How much do people think the GA aircraft prices and cost of maintenance will drop as a result of the projected recession? I'm thinking of buying something soon to get more hours as my flying club is closed. Or make some more friends who own and wouldn't mind adding me to the insurance. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/march/30/aircraft-market-reacts-to-the-coronavirus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 There is a chance prices will fall but it depends how fast if/when the economy comes back. Also what types are you looking at getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 (edited) Cost to maintain in the certified side will not be getting any cheaper. These legacy costs will continue to increase as a function of lack of economies of scale, regulation overburden (compared to LSA or E-AB), and lack of OEM support (OEMS want these legacy spam cans moth balled honestly). There's some real pitfalls for the uninitiated to walk into regarding some make/models and non-starter airframe component pricing. I've already seen some price adjustments that would be unheard of two years ago in some of the airplanes I've been interested in trading into. Others are still holding, but once the summer flying seaons is over people will really sour on holding on to the albatross, and watch the inventories get dumped. This fall will be the time to strike a good deal that can last you a decade plus. I'm certainly watching passively. Good luck with the hunt! Edited April 2, 2020 by hindsight2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuggyU2 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 HindSight, would you care to expand on any of that? What aircraft are you looking at moving up to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 Already planned to buy around next fall/winter, so hopefully this’ll work out in our favor. Also interested in anyone’s thoughts on leading purchase pitfalls/don’t-buy aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 48 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said: HindSight, would you care to expand on any of that? What aircraft are you looking at moving up to? In all honesty, I rather not deal in specifics. You can PM me about those if you want. Open thread, the type-specific zealots just get all umbraged and religious about their certified airplanes and things quickly devolve into ad hominems and "well, I got a guy who knows how to work on that for a discount/I got an AP hook-up for parts/337 sourcing so that's your problem if you don't" perennial two circle fights. I'm quite bored of those exchanges so I don't really dabble in it anymore. In the end it's a hobby, people can do whatever the heck they want with their money, no skin off my back. I've said my peace before about my objections to fac-built mx and inspection-authority rules in cert. planes not used for revenue. I was a big advocate of the Primary Non-Commercial category as recommended by the ARC 2013 report to Congress on the part-23 re-write. When that portion of the legislation was snuffed by the FAA, much of my enthusiasm for this hobby waned. I've begrudgingly kept my Arrow because I need the back seat and it's not eating me out of house and home. Though for full disclosure that appeasement has in itself been a result of a concerted effort on my part in minimizing my capital investment in the airplane through the years, down to airworthiness only and at the expense of cosmetics/avionics, bigly. Which is sad for the airplane, but it's a matter of principle for me at this juncture. That wouldn't be the case in the least if I were allowed to maintain, inspect and operate it like an E-AB. I almost quit the hobby last year on account of some of the more frustrating regulatory blockades over modifying/upgrading the simplest of things (headrests was the thing that blew it up for me last year), and it took the wife walking me off the proverbial ledge not to chuck the thing to a part 147 school, get the donation tax credit and walk away entirely. I try not to think too much about it these days, but it's always a bit of a rock in my shoe when looking at this ownership thing on the certified side. I'm just tired of the AP/IA/337/STC/ kiss the ring/ mother may I BS, and the associated $$$ premium.All the while the EAB guy flies overhead shooting IMC to minimums on a literal IPAD and a NAPA alternator for a 1/3 the cost. Oh and homemade headrests just to spite me :D. I digress cuz I'm ranting again. The thing with E-AB is, as much as I'd like to sponsor it, does not cater to the 4 seater XC crowd in an affordable manner. RV-10 is about the only offering of consequence and that's a non-starter for non-builders on the CAPEX front. Otherwise, I'd be there yesterday. At any rate, as to the airplane search, I'm not so much trying to "move up" as much as move "out" of certified land. The family mission keeps me tied to certified tho. But to your question, more than likely I'm looking at an RV-6A (looked at Glasairs, didn't like the seating ergonomics and volumetrics, Lancair 320/360 insurance rates were non-starters), which are in the price range, gear config and seating arrangement I'm interested in. I'm on airplane #3 so my risk aversion is much less than when I was a neophyte, so I've flirted with combining the missions (2-seater acro tourer plus Griswold's family station wagon) but unless I'm willing to find a hen's tooth acro F33C, I'm SOL. I did look at a Yak-18T for a nanosecond, but owning an M14P for the kind of turnkey lazy@ss chock the airplane and hit the beach cross country pilot I am, was just not in the cards. Plus slow and thirsty as all get out. It would have been mad ramp appeal though, pop pop popping up to the FBO behind that throaty monster lol. So yeah, depending on how I feel about doubling my fixed expenses to own two airplanes, the RV-6A is probably where I'm headed for plan B. A very distant plan C would involve getting a different certified 4 or six seater, at a very deep discount, if the market absolutely collapses this year. At that point, it would be stupid not to, for the 10 or so year ownership outlook I have before my mission downgrades to empty nest permanently and the RV becomes the staple. We'll see what the year brings market wise. Sorry for the rambling, this topic gets me fired up lol. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookieRookie Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 33 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said: In all honesty, I rather not deal in specifics. You can PM me about those if you want. Open thread, the type-specific zealots just get all umbraged and religious about their certified airplanes and things quickly devolve into ad hominems and "well, I got a guy who knows how to work on that for a discount/I got an AP hook-up for parts/337 sourcing so that's your problem if you don't" perennial two circle fights. I'm quite bored of those exchanges so I don't really dabble in it anymore. In the end it's a hobby, people can do whatever the heck they want with their money, no skin off my back. I've said my peace before about my objections to fac-built mx and inspection-authority rules in cert. planes not used for revenue. I was a big advocate of the Primary Non-Commercial category as recommended by the ARC 2013 report to Congress on the part-23 re-write. When that portion of the legislation was snuffed by the FAA, much of my enthusiasm for this hobby waned. I've begrudgingly kept my Arrow because I need the back seat and it's not eating me out of house and home. Though for full disclosure that appeasement has in itself been a result of a concerted effort on my part in minimizing my capital investment in the airplane through the years, down to airworthiness only and at the expense of cosmetics/avionics, bigly. Which is sad for the airplane, but it's a matter of principle for me at this juncture. That wouldn't be the case in the least if I were allowed to maintain, inspect and operate it like an E-AB. I almost quit the hobby last year on account of some of the more frustrating regulatory blockades over modifying/upgrading the simplest of things (headrests was the thing that blew it up for me last year), and it took the wife walking me off the proverbial ledge not to chuck the thing to a part 147 school, get the donation tax credit and walk away entirely. I try not to think too much about it these days, but it's always a bit of a rock in my shoe when looking at this ownership thing on the certified side. I'm just tired of the AP/IA/337/STC/ kiss the ring/ mother may I BS, and the associated $$$ premium.All the while the EAB guy flies overhead shooting IMC to minimums on a literal IPAD and a NAPA alternator for a 1/3 the cost. Oh and homemade headrests just to spite me :D. I digress cuz I'm ranting again. The thing with E-AB is, as much as I'd like to sponsor it, does not cater to the 4 seater XC crowd in an affordable manner. RV-10 is about the only offering of consequence and that's a non-starter for non-builders on the CAPEX front. Otherwise, I'd be there yesterday. At any rate, as to the airplane search, I'm not so much trying to "move up" as much as move "out" of certified land. The family mission keeps me tied to certified tho. But to your question, more than likely I'm looking at an RV-6A (looked at Glasairs, didn't like the seating ergonomics and volumetrics, Lancair 320/360 insurance rates were non-starters), which are in the price range, gear config and seating arrangement I'm interested in. I'm on airplane #3 so my risk aversion is much less than when I was a neophyte, so I've flirted with combining the missions (2-seater acro tourer plus Griswold's family station wagon) but unless I'm willing to find a hen's tooth acro F33C, I'm SOL. I did look at a Yak-18T for a nanosecond, but owning an M14P for the kind of turnkey lazy@ss chock the airplane and hit the beach cross country pilot I am, was just not in the cards. Plus slow and thirsty as all get out. It would have been mad ramp appeal though, pop pop popping up to the FBO behind that throaty monster lol. So yeah, depending on how I feel about doubling my fixed expenses to own two airplanes, the RV-6A is probably where I'm headed for plan B. A very distant plan C would involve getting a different certified 4 or six seater, at a very deep discount, if the market absolutely collapses this year. At that point, it would be stupid not to, for the 10 or so year ownership outlook I have before my mission downgrades to empty nest permanently and the RV becomes the staple. We'll see what the year brings market wise. Sorry for the rambling, this topic gets me fired up lol. Thought of building a Sling TSi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookieRookie Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 On another note, I want to get into GA this year. I’m eagerly watching the market this fall especially if MOSAIC is put into rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 23 minutes ago, LookieRookie said: On another note, I want to get into GA this year. I’m eagerly watching the market this fall especially if MOSAIC is put into rules. I think MOSAIC is a pipe dream, but it's my kind of pipedream. That's my skepticism stemming from the fallout of Primary non-commercial in 2015. To the point, the two provisions I would be most interested in are: 1) is allowing non-builder owners of E-AB aircraft to have inspection authority in the same manner non-builder owners of E-LSA aircraft are allowed to with the 2-week Repairman-Inspection Certificate. That would be HUGE. I'm willing to say that provision ALONE would tip me over to eating the fixed costs of owning two airplanes. and 2) is of course, expansion of the LSA performance and weight limitations in order to allow 4-seaters into the category, and then via conversions of S-LSA (many which already fly abroad at higher gross weights straight from the factory, since they are allowed to be heavier and faster in Europe and Australia) into E-LSA would gain the same inspection authority efficiencies sought by #1 above, as well as E-LSA as it currently stands today. 30 minutes ago, LookieRookie said: Thought of building a Sling TSi? No, but I'd pay someone to build it for me though. Neither fits the budget of course. It's a bit underpowered, although it markets itself as having a comparable power loading to certified sub-200hp 4 seaters due to lighter weight. I'm skeptical of the advertised out the door weights, plus I'm a "there's no replacement for displacement" kinda guy. I'd buy one tomorrow if I could get it for 80-90 grand out the door...assembled. I ain't paying someone housing money to be told "batteries not included, all assembly required". That ain't happening so back to the drawing board. 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 I owned a Cherokee for 15 years that we flew all over the country until I had to sell for an OCONUS PCS. My only advice is to don’t overbuy, especially if you are going certified. If 90% of your flying is going to be for fun in the local area, save yourself the $ and heartache of having a turbocharger, retract, etc. For the other 10% of your flying, pack some extra coffee and cookies for the times when you are bucking a headwind at 120 knots and enjoy the ride. Fast is awesome, but there are some great things to see in America down low and slow. If you need to go fast with only two seats, buy a RV and don’t look back. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuggyU2 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) If you decide to reconsider the Yak-18T option, let me know and I'll get you in touch with Ross Granley. Maybe you've already spoken to him. Ross flies to airshows with the family... unloads a ton of luggage... then flies an aerobatic two-ship performance with his dad in a Yak-55... then packs up and goes home. He's got a ton of Yak -18T experience and would be a great resource. 17 minutes ago, frog said: If you need to go fast with only two seats, buy a RV and don’t look back. Possibly a quotable quote. Edited April 3, 2020 by HuggyU2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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