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What's wrong with the Air Force?


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I don't really know, it just seems like a really long time since dudes are now pinning major around 11 years total, to not even get a first look until 12 and then pin on 6-9 months later. Haven't been around enough to know the consequences of promoting slow versus promoting fast and obviously there are positives and negatives to both. I'm still pissed that my army buddies all put on O-3 after 3 years but whatever...they have to be in the Army so that more than makes up for it.

Exactly. You have no reference. Your argument is about as useless as saying we should go back to the old way, circa the World Wars: you don't promote to 1Lt until you achieve basic qualification in your job.

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Ask them about the pressure to finish up that online Bachelors in General Studies if they don't really want to and don't need it for their job...

Not really a sound comparison. According to AFPC numbers in "The Book", only 20% of enlisted members have an Associates, 5% have a Bachelors and 1% have a Masters. By comparison, about half of all officers have a Masters. For enlisted dudes, it isn't a box to check...it actually represents book learning well above what's required or average. A lack of a degree doesn't really become a limiting factor until the E-8 board. That is...the guys who want to be in that top 3% of highest ranking enlisted members.

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uhh... this is pretty much how it is now days....

This. The delays are real.

Bullshit. Change the system so the next guy doesn't have the same stupid ass rules you had. I refuse to either do the full-stiff arm that results in total career failure or the bend over and can I please have some more sir. There is a middle ground where you know the rules, check the boxes when appropriate, but do everything possible to both change the system and steer those younger than you on the correct path, which to me is focusing on the mission first and doing anything else second.

Exactly, in my mind the single biggest cultural problem we have is the "I had to do it so you should to" attitude. The bullshit always adds and rarely subtracts.

Edited by FlyingWolf
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Has anyone else started skipping over nsplayr's eye numbing posts and simply reading only the posts around his to get the gyst? Maybe I just have a short attention span?

Wow, and I was being brief compared to some other topics. You skip my posts but then add your own that adds no value to the conversation? Cool...

Enough is enough, dude. I refuse to ignore the glaring contradiction any longer: this website. .....it creates quite a credibility gap in your argument, wouldn't you say?

Did I ever say I resented doing my own Masters? Did I ever even claim I didn't have enough time to do it? I thought I was pretty clear that I chose to do my MA right away after nav school, and I even tried to ed delay out of college to knock it out immediately. Sooo...yea, I post on baseops frequently, how does that affect my argument that the system shouldn't force CGOs to knock out their MA and especially shouldn't pressure them to do so as fast as possible?

My choice to take an action is not related to my belief that others should not be strong-armed into making the same choice if their circumstances are different than mine.

Edited by nsplayr
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Wow, and I was being brief compared to some other topics. You skip my posts but then add your own that adds no value to the conversation? Cool...

Did I ever say I resented doing my own Masters? Did I ever even claim I didn't have enough time to do it? I thought I was pretty clear that I chose to do my MA right away after nav school, and I even tried to ed delay out of college to knock it out immediately. Sooo...yea, I post on baseops frequently, how does that affect my argument that the system shouldn't force CGOs to knock out their MA and especially shouldn't pressure them to do so as fast as possible?

My choice to take an action is not related to my belief that others should not be strong-armed into making the same choice if their circumstances are different than mine.

Can't we all just get along...

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I've flown with O-5s who are absolutely terrible in the jet, I mean not even IQC level knowledge...but they did the MA, they did SOS and ACSC in correspondence and some joint school in residence, so they were the competitive guys, while the real tactical leaders in the squadron got passed over for not doing ACSC fast enough or not having enough outside activities.

Have you ever flown with any O-5s who did the first part and are also tactical leaders? They exist.

It took them a lot of work to become so.

Focus on the positive. Be one of them.

uhh... this is pretty much how it is now days. 3 Yrs.

My ROTC bros on the other hand got the generous 6 months of no pay, no scholarship eligibility, no TA, and no G.I. bill. Work full time to pay rent/food, not enough time to then work for the money to pay for a masters and take the masters class. DOR is 3 months into that 6 months.

Evidently we just have to go back to the way it was when some of the older members of the board went through. Maybe this AF wouldn't be so fucked up if you could make rank by using the mind set of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Instead, now we have everything "fixed".

OK, three years.

FWIW, I had to wait nine months after graduation before I went to pilot training. I worked construction. It didn't fuck me up.

No one is trying to give you advice that will fuck over your career.

There is a middle ground where you know the rules, check the boxes when appropriate, but do everything possible to both change the system and steer those younger than you on the correct path, which to me is focusing on the mission first and doing anything else second.

Why is it ok when you say it but you have to piss on someone's leg when they try to tell you the same thing. You gain 10x SA from listening on the radio than you get from talking on it.

It's not even that most people are bad aviators. I'm perfectly capable of doing my MA and being competent in the jet and so is any other bro except maybe the bottom of the barrel. My point is that as I've grown in the squadron and experienced more, I'm realizing more and more all the stuff I don't know.

You're not the first person to realize this.

You'll really realize it if you decide to go to weapons school. You'll graduate thinking you don't know shit and there's so much more to learn and then you'll show up at your squadron realizing how much other people don't know and you need to start teaching...and learning the stuff you're worried you don't know.

Both. At the same time.

Because of this, I want the next guy who'll replace me not to make the same mistakes I did and I strongly believe that involves focusing more attention on primary duties and less on MAs, SOS, snacko, etc.

I can't tell if you're too arrogant to recognize when someone is trying to do exactly what you say you want to do or if you're just stupid.

(rainman, feel free to kick me in the balls if my history is wrong here).

Don't be a pussy. It makes you look like a pussy.

I'm more than happy to explain this concept to any airman in my squadron

Don't. Please.

I don't really know, it just seems like a really long time since dudes are now pinning major around 11 years total, to not even get a first look until 12 and then pin on 6-9 months later.

I am blown away that you would even want to be promoted to Major any earlier than you absolutely had to be. There used to be nothing better than being a Capt with a patch and a star on his wings. That guy was fucking King Kong in any room he walked into. The next most respected guy was the Capt who didn't have a patch but had a star on his wings. Those guys ruled the squadron. They flew the most, they drank the most, they got laid the most and they won the most money on the range and at the bar. Pinning brown rank on just meant you were now in the disrespected pool of brown rank wearing pilots who didn't know shit and didn't have a real job. Brown rank is brown rank, regardless of its shape.

Most guys I served with were Capts for at least eight years. Many were Capts ten years before they actually pinned on O-4.

BTZ promotion to O-4 was often seen as the kiss of death to becoming a tactical superstar because it meant you were going to get yanked out of the cockpit "early" and be gone for a while...perhaps never to return.

I'm still pissed that my army buddies all put on O-3 after 3 years but whatever...

You seem pretty focused on getting promoted as early as possible. You react whenever the idea of delaying promotion comes up. Seems to be a conflict with the rest of your words about focus on mission not promotion.

Is this some kind of AFSOC tactical deception play you're making?

Wow, and I was being brief compared to some other topics. You skip my posts but then add your own that adds no value to the conversation? Cool...

Foul. Take the debrief item. Brevity would give you credibility.

Edited by Rainman A-10
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Guest Scaredfuzz

I know I'm new to the AF but I have read through this thread to see what the new and old pilots have said about this topic. For what its worth, I personally don't see anything wrong with having to get a masters, in the civilian side a masters for the most part now is expected in what ever job you get. However, I find it odd (from what I can tell please someone correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to know) that the air force doesn't seem to care what MA you get. The AF will pay for a masters and a guy who gets a MA in basketweaving versus a guy who gets one that's relevant to his job get treated the same from what I can tell.

Am I understanding this correctly that its just a have to box filled requirement or does it matter what your MA is?

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I can't tell if you're too arrogant to recognize when someone is trying to do exactly what you say you want to do or if you're just stupid.

Your advice seems to be along those lines after some clarification...others not so much. The whole "bend over and take it" and "stop bitching" and "no excuse not to have a MA as a LT" crowd is who I'm talking to more than you.

I am blown away that you would even want to be promoted to Major any earlier than you absolutely had to be...

Agreed on all...I suspect there is some secret ceremony where you pin on major and they give you a lobotomy at the same time. Some guys were running late and missed the proceedings and were able to stay cool. Anecdotal evidence suggests the number of doubhebag majors out there is exponentially higher than the number of douchebag captains. Something happens in that timeframe and it aint' good...

You seem pretty focused on getting promoted as early as possible. You react whenever the idea of delaying promotion comes up. Seems to be a conflict with the rest of your words about focus on mission not promotion.

Absolutely not...I was jealous of my army bros because they got paid more right away and they made what I consider the most desirable rank to be (Captain) faster and I was still a f*cking lieutenant, that's pretty much it. Like I said, no real opinion on whether fast or slow promotion is "better," although I can identify some problems with our current setup of extended training and I guess what is relatively fast promotion.

Brevity would give you credibility.

I'll work on my speech writing skills to boil down the pertinent points. On the other hand, do you lose credibility when your posts, like this last one, are long?

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Have you ever flown with any O-5s who did the first part and are also tactical leaders? They exist.

It took them a lot of work to become so.

Focus on the positive. Be one of them.

Few and far between. Because the Air Force cares more about looking educated compared to other services than it does about tactical proficiency.

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Guest CAVEMAN

Force reshaping causes promotion delays. The Airforce has to man the numbers at every rank so that the pyramid looks just right. Slower promotion is just one of the tools to get the pyramid to look right. In most cases than not, big blue is unable to control the numbers because there are many factors affecting grade/rank shaping. The Army can promote guys to O-3 faster because their O-3's are bailing out faster than they can get them in. Now imagine this for every rank. Their O-5 and O-6 promotions are probably on par with everyone else simply because attrition as the pyramid tapers is not as high. USAF is unique in the scene that is has a significant pool of officers(Pilots/Nav) with long service obligations and therefore cannot leave in the 3-5 year window as Army guys see. Even as an Army pilot, you are only looking at a 6 year commitment.

Edited by CAVEMAN
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If you want to play the game, then stop whining about the damn rules! It's really that simple, but that's not enough for some people, and they want to bitch about their "hardships".

Or...play the game, assimilate without surrendering, progress, survive the lobotomy and when the time is right, be the agent of change...do it for the bros behind you.

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A lack of a degree doesn't really become a limiting factor until the E-8 board.

In my MDS and AFSC, if you want to be an FTU instructor you have to have your CCAF (Associates) complete. Doesn't matter if you already have a Bachelors from somewhere else, you MUST be CCAF-complete.

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Guest Crew Report

In my MDS and AFSC, if you want to be an FTU instructor you have to have your CCAF (Associates) complete. Doesn't matter if you already have a Bachelors from somewhere else, you MUST be CCAF-complete.

Not true. Coming from a current FTU instructor in your AFSC you must be CCAF complete or within a year of completing it.

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Can't we all just get along...

This is BaseOps...so, no

Have you ever flown with any O-5s who did the first part and are also tactical leaders? They exist.

It took them a lot of work to become so.

Focus on the positive. Be one of them.

OK, three years.

FWIW, I had to wait nine months after graduation before I went to pilot training. I worked construction. It didn't fuck me up.

No one is trying to give you advice that will fuck over your career.

Why is it ok when you say it but you have to piss on someone's leg when they try to tell you the same thing. You gain 10x SA from listening on the radio than you get from talking on it.

You're not the first person to realize this.

You'll really realize it if you decide to go to weapons school. You'll graduate thinking you don't know shit and there's so much more to learn and then you'll show up at your squadron realizing how much other people don't know and you need to start teaching...and learning the stuff you're worried you don't know.

Both. At the same time.

I can't tell if you're too arrogant to recognize when someone is trying to do exactly what you say you want to do or if you're just stupid.

Don't be a pussy. It makes you look like a pussy.

Don't. Please.

I am blown away that you would even want to be promoted to Major any earlier than you absolutely had to be. There used to be nothing better than being a Capt with a patch and a star on his wings. That guy was fucking King Kong in any room he walked into. The next most respected guy was the Capt who didn't have a patch but had a star on his wings. Those guys ruled the squadron. They flew the most, they drank the most, they got laid the most and they won the most money on the range and at the bar. Pinning brown rank on just meant you were now in the disrespected pool of brown rank wearing pilots who didn't know shit and didn't have a real job. Brown rank is brown rank, regardless of its shape.

Most guys I served with were Capts for at least eight years. Many were Capts ten years before they actually pinned on O-4.

BTZ promotion to O-4 was often seen as the kiss of death to becoming a tactical superstar because it meant you were going to get yanked out of the cockpit "early" and be gone for a while...perhaps never to return.

You seem pretty focused on getting promoted as early as possible. You react whenever the idea of delaying promotion comes up. Seems to be a conflict with the rest of your words about focus on mission not promotion.

Is this some kind of AFSOC tactical deception play you're making?

Foul. Take the debrief item. Brevity would give you credibility.

Rainmain, you already have credibility in my book, but after a scathing 2 volume response, criticizing brevity?...really

:-)

...do it for the bros behind you.

STS

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Hit the "delete" button instead of the "edit" button.... :bash:

Not true. Coming from a current FTU instructor in your AFSC you must be CCAF complete or within a year of completing it.

Focus on the part where I said "in my MDS"...

To be fair, I'll add this qualifier: this is how it is at WRI right now. I don't know how SUU is doing it.

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I like the "Thats the way it is/has always been" attitude. I've always wondered at what point in one's career that attitude started molding itself in the minds of our fearful "leaders" It seems like people are just afraid of change no matter how much sense it makes because they feel safe with the way things are...they won't get fired if they just keep it the way it is. Yet we will spend waste millions of dollars and man hours making subtle changes to uniform regs about hairy legs and yellow t-shirts when it makes absolutely NO sense (ok, maybe the chick hairy legs part makes sense)

Ask yourself this: If the Air Force changed the rules (back) to masked Masters degrees, would you all of the sudden support the idea because "thats the way it is?" or would you be against it? Or is there another reason you support getting a Masters as a Lt so much? IMO, it seems the only people who are against masked Master's degrees are the ones who most rely on that AAD to help them stand out.

The bottom line is that the way we manage the AAD for officers promotes wasteful spending...period. You can argue that it is the "game" and "just do it because thats the way it is" but it doesn't mean that we are using those funds and the AAD program to our advantage. You have people getting a BS online quickie Masters two years into their career who otherwise would not get one JUST so they stay in the game. The degree is worthless to both the individual and the Air Force if that person just picked the online degree they can finish quickest. Who does it benefit?...the online school that is overcharging for the degree in the first place. In addition to completing your degree too early, depending on your degree, you have to worry about degree recency requirements. Just look at some of the current job requirements out there...some of them require a Masters degree within the past 10 years. How competitive do you think you'll be with an MBA or Aviation Systems Masters from the 80s or 90s (or insert your current degree 20 years from now)?

IMO, to use a Master's degree as a tool to measure potential leadership is some of the most backwards thinking I've ever seen. We should be using them to help the Air Force and our mission. I have never met a single person in my life who all of the sudden became a great leader the day after they graduated from their Master's program. Not once did I ever watch a true leader in action and think to myself "Wow, I wonder what kind of Master's degree that guy has." I know O-5s and a few O-6s without Master's degrees (not including the ones awarded at PME), and they seem to be doing just fine in leadership positions. Imagine that...

I will always say education is important. It is important because it promotes innovative thinking (the exact opposite of "thats the way it has always been" thinking), brings new ideas to the table, and allows for networking of best practice ideas that could change the way we operate as an organization. The people most suited to make those operational level changes/decisions are not Lts and Capt, but rather Majors and Lt Cols...the people we should be targeting for specialized AADs. The irony is that we HAVE a highly educated force, yet some still have the "thats the way it has always been" mindset...probably because that education isn't serving the purpose I've indicated above, but rather box checking and promotion opportunity (sarcasm)

The culture has to change. In these times of fiscal constraints, we are going to have to figure out ways to better spend our money. TA and other education programs are lower hanging fruit and are going to change, the money just isn't there anymore. We just let 157 experienced officers walk because we can't "afford" them. I'm calling on all the highly educated officers out there...this is just one of many ways we misuse our funds...with all that education, surely you can figure out how to do this smartly instead of just saying "thats the way it is/has always been."

I think I've kicked the sh*t out of this dead horse....

Edited for grammar (gotta look smart)

Edited by BitteEinBit
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The whole "bend over and take it" and "stop bitching" and "no excuse not to have a MA as a LT" crowd is who I'm talking to more than you.

Noted.

I'll work on my speech writing skills to boil down the pertinent points. On the other hand, do you lose credibility when your posts, like this last one, are long?

Yes, I do. Especially if they're long becuase of lots of words typed be me. That is true for everyone.

A long series of paragraphs are difficult to sort through and they lose people's attention.

A couple words with some white space in response to a specific comment seem to be more effective. It may take space on the page but is easy to absorb.

Contrary to the USAF approach to OPR writing, white space is typically a good thing.

No one is as good as Beaver at boiling it down to seven words or less.

Technique only.

Rainmain, you already have credibility in my book, but after a scathing 2 volume response, criticizing brevity?...really

Go fuck yourself.

Better?

:beer:

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Nope, it's really not. That wears on you after a while and I've seen dudes pretty burned out and bitter, but what drives the nail in the coffin is when you come home and on your dwell time you're spinning up for inspections, practice inspections for future inspections, mobility processes that conform to Big Blue but not to logic or common sense, senseless paperwork to accomplish what used to be routine scheduling changes, briefing the OG in person every time anyone sets foot off home station for an OST/TDY/exercise, etc. That's what makes guys really lose it from what I've seen.

This. HRT has gone insane, and what stuns me is the way everyone seems to be taking it lying down. I'm not saying go out and defy orders, but the . . . just defeated, demoralized way folks seem to accept the insanity bothers me. As if they have given up on AFSOC ever being different and special from Big Blue. As if they really feel that our AF has no hope of ever having the right priorities again . . . and nsplayr's use of the "straw that broke the camel's back" is spot on. Are my sleeves important? no. Morale patches, my t-shirt color, etc? no. But when you're running the command ragged with deployments for a decade or more, endless alert commitments locking people down, all the above bullshit and the threat of Cannon . . . there are a lot of dudes just one morale patch away from voting with their feet.

Leadership, if you want to fix retention, do some give-and-take to show us you realize that the sum total of the BS is pretty high. Meet every increase in The Suck with a reduction elsewhere. So the new CC has a hard-on for sleeves? OK. But he's BFMing the rules to get us Friday patches, cool. Massive inspection prep taking our family time? gay. But the WG/CC just called a down day after it, and the SQ/CC bought a keg.

If you just keep piling on useless rules and obstructions that make the mission harder to accomplish and life just generally suck, eventually one meaningless thing will be what makes a guy punch out.

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