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What's wrong with the Air Force?

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Yeah, that's kind of what I thought.

You have to know when to notch but you can't let the enemy use their acquisition radar as a weapon.

I get what most of you guys are saying, I absolutely loved any chance I got to go donwrange and did whatever it took to make that happen (and extend) whenever I could. The difference is probably that I also didn't mind proceeding direct to Nellis for RF/FWIC support/AW w/in 7 days of returning home from a long deployment. I was ######ed up and my family eventually let me know that. Luckily I was able to regain 3/9 with my priorities and not lose the most important thing in my life...which wasn't the USAF.

It wasn't that long ago that I made the transition from being one of the defenders to being one of the defended. It has proven to be one of most difficult thing I have ever done. I hate not being able to hammer down on behalf of the rest of America that is unwilling to, incapable of and/or uninterested in doing so for themselves. I am totally in support of and thankful to all you guys who are defending me and my family today.

That said, I'm trying to think of meaningful ways I can support you guys today. I have made some pretty decent connections in my civilian life and I am trying to figure out how to leverage them on your behalf. For example, we have the wife of a Hogdriver who is a full-up US Senator. The important thing is to separate what is a legit cause of real pain and what is simply bitching about shit that could just as well be ignored. You don't want to waste weapons on decoys, especially when there is an abundance of legitimate targets.

Very well said.

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Play the game and reap the benefits of the parts you really like to do. BFM the rules because it's fun to outsmart the people making the rules but don't be stupid and wag your cock in their face. Be honest about what shit needs to be done/put up with and resolve yourself not to engage in the negative. Don't be a victim. Vote with your feet (and that means stay or go).

^^ That is the gospel truth.

When did BFMing the rules stop being a sport? Be polite, take the high road, and beat them at their own game. Then laugh about it with your buddies later. IMHO the "No Morale" patches are a great start.

I know it's difficult to do this, but honestly just brush it off. Why get wrapped around the axle because someone told you to take your sunglasses off your head? Just laugh and say, "Thanks, my mistake" and then smile to yourself the whole rest of the day because that ass clown is stuck at the base while you get to go fly a $69M jet, doing something that is actually important, and that you likely worked your whole life to be allowed/trained to do! Don't lose the bigger picture here.

Lts and Capts don't need them. We waste a lot of money getting our Lts and Capts BS Masters degrees

True. But do you think guys will have more time to deal with this as more senior Capt/Maj types? No! That is when your time should be spent running the Stan/Eval or Training shop, or out there training the FNGs, or working on 3-1 or 11-2XX rewrites to make them better. Back when dinosaurs roamed the USAF, people actually had to PAY for their own masters! 100% TA is a godsend.

Am I advocating that you start a masters program 2 months after finishing MQT? No. But there is no excuse for not having it done as a Lt, or certainly by the time you've been a Captain for a year. And yes I know it is a BS requirement, but sometimes you have to pay to play. You want to promote, make $125k a year as a Lt Col, and fly shiny jets? Check the damned box and press on.

No, they aren't fun anymore. Not sure how long you've been out but drinking is frowned upon these days (not that you have to drink to have fun). We even used to have play money casinos at our Christmas parties before leadership frowned on it saying it promoted gambling. If I were to make it my kind of "fun" it would certainly get me in trouble. I wouldn't quit for it though...

Whose fault is that?? A little passive resistance (i.e. show up drunk but not obnoxious) might be appropriate. If it's an adults-only party, and you have some sort of anonymous gift exchange...spend a hunderd bucks at the local Adult Emporium and get some gifts that are memorable. Don't tell anyone what you bought thus dodging any backlash. I could go on for pages, but hopefully you get the point. There are ways to make things fun without approval from the CC or his wife.

I just hope that these same young officers complaining about these things aren't the same ones 10 years from now dishing it out

THIS is the key! It is much easier to bitch and moan for your whole career than it is to show some intestinal fortitude when you get the chance. Be respectful, be persistent, and do what you know is right when you get the chance.

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THIS is the key! It is much easier to bitch and moan for your whole career than it is to show some intestinal fortitude when you get the chance. Be respectful, be persistent, and do what you know is right when you get the chance.

The real question is if any of the people "bitching" and identifying these problems today will be around in 10 years. My guess is no - of course this assumes there is no stop loss initiated.

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True. But do you think guys will have more time to deal with this as more senior Capt/Maj types? No! That is when your time should be spent running the Stan/Eval or Training shop, or out there training the FNGs, or working on 3-1 or 11-2XX rewrites to make them better. Back when dinosaurs roamed the USAF, people actually had to PAY for their own masters! 100% TA is a godsend.

Am I advocating that you start a masters program 2 months after finishing MQT? No. But there is no excuse for not having it done as a Lt, or certainly by the time you've been a Captain for a year. And yes I know it is a BS requirement, but sometimes you have to pay to play. You want to promote, make $125k a year as a Lt Col, and fly shiny jets? Check the damned box and press on.

I see what you're saying about not having the time as a senior Capt/Maj to work on a Masters degree the way things are run TODAY, but I think it is because you are looking at it as just a requirement to "check the box" to get promoted instead of a program that could benefit the AF. That goes back to my point from Gen Jumper's policy...If you need to get a Masters, the Air Force will send you. So YES if we do it right, you will have time as a Major to do your masters if the AF is sending you to get a Masters. While you're a LT/Capt, you'll have more time to learn your job, run Stan/Eval, instruct FNGs, spend time with family all without worrying about Master's classes because the AF will send you later when you get that staff job that requires it. Spending millions of dollars on worthless degrees so someone can look good to a promotion board and the Air Force can brag about percentages of officers with AAD is wasteful.

The way I look at a Masters degree is that the Air Force SHOULD be spending money on AADs that directly benefit the USAF. A career pilot with a Masters of Health Science degree isn't helping anyone. Sending an officer to get a Masters of Logistics Management or Operations Management or Human Factors in Safety, because you plan to put them in job that uses that degree, makes sense to me. The way we do it now does not.

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Am I advocating that you start a masters program 2 months after finishing MQT? No. But there is no excuse for not having it done as a Lt, or certainly by the time you've been a Captain for a year.

Wait, you are familiar with how long training is for aviators right? And how long it takes to complete most masters programs right? Because the brand new shiny pilots showing up to my unit after UPT, FTU, various casual times and/or BITs, etc. are all either within 6 months of pinning captain or more likely already Captains. When are they supposed to do that masters again? Sooo...yea, your prescribed path isn't even achievable.

If I ran the AF, anyone even thinking about getting their masters before they had a solid year in their first operational squadron would be kicked square in the nuts for losing focus on their primary job. And I'm all for education...I tried to educational delay out of ROTC and the AF told me no, so it's not about not seeing the value in having an MA, especially post-military. The timing you're suggesting is where I see a big problem and where most young officers see the problem as well.

Navs have it a little better, I was checked out and deployed right as I pinned on 1Lt. I started my masters the month I graduated nav school (i.e. worked on it concurrently with the FTU) and am still working to finish it up as I pin O-3...looks like I'm way behind on the Bergman power curve. There goes my BTZ to O-6!

Check the damned box and press on.

Realistically this is what most people do (myself included) but it's a defeatist attitude if that's what you believe deep down. I refuse to validate stupid shit just because it was the price I had to pay to play the game. I want it to be easier, more streamlined, and more mission-focused for the next guy.

If I can do anything from my humble perch as a crew dog to stop the practice bleeding for PME, if I can somehow influence the system to allow guys to focus on getting proficient in their airplane versus getting their MBA, I will do so regardless of the fact that the system required me to do those things. Work to make things better, not to just get by, "play the game" and get promoted. I believe there was a quote out there about being someone versus doing something...I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be somebody so I might as well try to do this.

Edited by nsplayr
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Am I advocating that you start a masters program 2 months after finishing MQT? No. But there is no excuse for not having it done as a Lt, or certainly by the time you've been a Captain for a year.

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Navs have it a little better, I was checked out and deployed right as I pinned on 1Lt. I started my masters the month I graduated nav school (i.e. worked on it concurrently with the FTU) and am still working to finish it up as I pin O-3...looks like I'm way behind on the Bergman power curve. There goes my BTZ to O-6!

Your experiences are not my experiences are not Bergman's, etc.

I was fully qualified in my airframe as a 2Lt. I started AC upgrade as a 1Lt. BFD.

All this bitching in the thread is rather useless when you show 1) how ######ing green you are when you aren't even four years in (to pin on Capt); 2) you don't even follow your own "kick someone in the junk for losing focus."

Should you do the master's and check the box? Yes.

Should you do it as a Lt or even a young Capt? No.

This is what people like Rainman are talking about when they say stiff-arm the bullshit and BFM the rules. Here's a ######ing cluebird for you: even in places where the asskissers seem to be ahead, if you keep your head down and do shit hot at your primary job and don't slack on whatever shitty secondary duty (or duties) you have, you will do well for the first several years and be that uber-awesome pilot/nav/whatever you wanted to be. Once you've built yourself that reputation, even early on in your career, it becomes the most effective shit-blocker you'll see for years.

Step 1) Be Johnny ######ing Bravo

Step 2) ...

Step 3) Profit!

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Guest Hueypilot812

You know...all this talk about masters degrees, PME and the like...fine. Got it...I'll deal with it. Blues on Monday? It sucks and I don't like it...but a minor issue.

It's when I'm being told that getting ACSC done before you pin on Major is now the new yardstick to measure leadership ability that makes me sick to my stomach. When we've got 30 people in a wing who haven't done a deployment in 3+ years go unscathed yet the guy who did a 365 a couple years ago gets stuck with another 182 day deployment (for a total of 540+ days deployed while in an AETC assignment)...and when he points this fact out to leadership he's told "well you volunteered for that 365 so you did it to yourself". Really? Is that the best you've got for us?

Or how about the time when crews were bringing up the issue of non-TCAS aircraft canceling IFR in Kuwait, setting up the perfect storm for a mid-air collision...we tried to get the leadership to address this issue but they were only concerned about making sure our socks were just right and everyone wore reflective belts. Thank God no one hit anyone else while flying around in that hell of airspace controlled by Moholab. But hey, we all had on the right underwear.

I've seen guys become the new golden children of leadership because they had an engine fall off a C-130. Granted, it took skill to land it, but that doesn't mean that dude is the next Robin Olds. I've seen bros get sent up to be the 4-star's exec because they got shot at (and hit) in theater. Nice...I got shot at and the bastards missed me but I guess bringing the airplane home sans holes in the fuselage means I was a failure and don't deserve a rock-star career.

I could go on, but you get my point. Leadership in the Air Force has been stripped of any sense of individual thought and common sense and it's measured based on silly power point metrics and stupid things like how fast you got ACSC done, not how well you even did on the damn courseware. THAT is the bigger picture that I think most people are frustrated with...the fact that by and large, most people in leadership positions lack the brass balls that past leadership possessed at some point in this Air Force's history. Instead it's all about career survival, and the bros sense that.

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Your posts are long enough. You don't have to double-post on top of them.

Thanks, fixed it.

Your experiences are not my experiences are not Bergman's, etc.

I was fully qualified in my airframe as a 2Lt. I started AC upgrade as a 1Lt. BFD.

So his advice and maybe yours should perhaps be calibrated for the realities of today's young officers. You immediately discredit yourself (not you specifically, more bergman I'm talking to) by recommending a person knock out their masters as an LT but after their MQT when that is impossible to accomplish because of timing.

The fact of the matter is guys are showing up to their first operational squadron green as any LT ever was but with captains bars on their shoulders, that changes the career advice they should be getting because they've essentially lost years of leeway due to training/delays/etc. Before becoming the advice-giver preaching "hey, you young guys should be doing this," take a look at the facts on the ground.

All this bitching in the thread is rather useless when you show 1) how ######ing green you are when you aren't even four years in (to pin on Capt)...

At what point in my career is bitching allowed? 4 years? 6-9 years? How about hueypilot, Bitte, pawnman, busdriver, tac airlifter, Karl Hungus, etc. Are they also insufficiently experienced to be making essentially the same argument I am? I don't think so...and that's just from the last 2 pages of this one thread.

Criticize the ideas, not the person. I may still be a f*cking lieutenant for another week or so but that doesn't mean I'm wrong when I say that dudes are being driven towards getting out because of a loss of mission focus on the part of leadership.

Edited by nsplayr
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It's when I'm being told that getting ACSC done before you pin on Major is now the new yardstick to measure leadership ability that makes me sick to my stomach. When we've got 30 people in a wing who haven't done a deployment in 3+ ye.....leadership he's told "well you volunteered for that 365 so you did it to yourself".

Or how about the time when crews were bringing up the issue of non-TCAS aircraft canceling IFR in Kuwait, setting up the perfect storm for a mid-air collision...we tried to get the leadership to address this issue but they were only concerned about making sure our socks were just right and everyone wore reflective belts. Thank God no one hit anyone else while flying around in that hell of airspace controlled by Moholab. But hey, we all had on the right underwear.

I could go on, but you get my point. Leadership in the Air Force has been stripped of any sense of individual thought and common sense and it's measured based on silly power point metrics and stupid things like how fast you got ACSC done, not how well you even did on the damn courseware. THAT is the bigger picture that I think most people are frustrated with...the fact that by and large, most people in leadership positions lack the brass balls that past leadership possessed at some point in this Air Force's history. Instead it's all about career survival, and the bros sense that.

SHACK!

I get it...commanders are busy. Senior raters just don't have the time to get to know EVERYONE. Using PME/AAD as a discriminator just makes their job easier when dishing out Ps and DPs. I've seen it firsthand where senior raters don't even look at packages (STS) but separate the P's and DP's by who has a Masters and who doesn't. They are essentially trying to make it easier to distinguish between officers that they perceive as "leaders" because they show drive and initiative and those who "just do their jobs." It appears that they aren't even looking at OPRs anymore. Why would they? It is time consuming, has a lot of fluff, and everyone is a winner. They look not only at IF you have an AAD/PME but WHEN you finished it. Really? That makes a great leader? I guess that makes our missileer force the best of the best since in the course of doing their jobs on alert, they are afforded the greatest opportunity to finish PME/Masters the fastest. So, in short...I do the ACSC Master's program, takes a year and a half to finish, I graduate with a 4.0, I get another Masters out of it...but somehow Capt Shmuckatelli does the crash course, finished in 6 weeks, min ran the program with 75% (or whatever the min score is) and somehow he is a better leader than I am? Is this really the line of thinking? CC's and former CC's please chime in...

One last time on the Masters issue. I know the Air Force isn't a "business" but I'm making this comparison to make my point about the way these "leaders" think. They keep talking about our benefits as they compare to the private sector...well, why don't we look at our TERRIBLE "business practices" as they compare to the private sector. Name ONE company out there who pays for all of its employees to get Masters degrees so they can use that as a measuring stick to promote them (regardless of the type of degree)? I'm all for TA and our people getting degrees that could help them when they decide to get out, but don't FORCE people to get a quickie Masters just to make them promotable when the degree they are forced to get doesn't help the individual or the Air Force. How about measuring how effective people are at their jobs, promote them, and then send them to specialized schools to make them even BETTER at doing their jobs? You can talk about doing it to "check the box," thats how it works these days...and it is wasteful, inefficient, and does nothing to help the AF.

Brilliant thinking "leadership." I see this "business" going far!

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Your experiences are not my experiences are not Bergman's, etc.

I was fully qualified in my airframe as a 2Lt. I started AC upgrade as a 1Lt. BFD.

All this bitching in the thread is rather useless when you show 1) how ######ing green you are when you aren't even four years in (to pin on Capt); 2) you don't even follow your own "kick someone in the junk for losing focus."

Should you do the master's and check the box? Yes.

Should you do it as a Lt or even a young Capt? No.

This is what people like Rainman are talking about when they say stiff-arm the bullshit and BFM the rules. Here's a ######ing cluebird for you: even in places where the asskissers seem to be ahead, if you keep your head down and do shit hot at your primary job and don't slack on whatever shitty secondary duty (or duties) you have, you will do well for the first several years and be that uber-awesome pilot/nav/whatever you wanted to be. Once you've built yourself that reputation, even early on in your career, it becomes the most effective shit-blocker you'll see for years.

Step 1) Be Johnny ######ing Bravo

Step 2) ...

Step 3) Profit!

I see, halo effect. How does that work out for you if you don't stay in the same community the rest of your career? It doesn't. The real bottom line is, do well (work hard) at whatever your job is wherever you go. There's not a damn thing you can do about the politics and the ass kissers.

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Since you guys had mentioned ACSC and timing I thought I would add my most recent experience. I just received my RRF for the upcoming RIF (I'm a 2000 12R type). I ended up with an R and not a DR, so I took the opportunity to setup a chat with my SR (since the accompanying cover letter made the offer, I thought I'd take them up on it and see how an O-8 views this process). Overall it was a positive conversation (probably because I didn't approach it with any expectations and I really wasn't too upset about the whole thing). Apparently, I was the only 2000 O-4 he had that did not have ACSC completed at the time he was signing the RRFs (I think maybe there were 5-6 of us in total up for the board). Other than that, I believe my record is very competitive (I know, I know, we're all Rock Stars). It seemed that ACSC was the deal breaker. The SR had signed the RRFs the previous Wed and I had just finished my ACSC the following week (i.e. when my records meet the board, it will show ACSC complete). Anyway, the only part that I kept thinking about was when he said that A) I should have at least had it finished a couple of weeks prior when he was working the RRFs (ok, that checks) and B) that I had pinned on Major 15 months prior, yet STILL had not finished my ACSC (I apparently didn't find this as astonishing as he did). Ok, based on my personal experience with many previous O-4s/O-5s that I grew up with, I'm still way ahead, based on their timelines, of when they finished back in the day. As a matter of fact, I remember a couple of O-4s scrambling to knock it out a mere months prior to their 2009 O-5 board PRFs being due (both made O-5 BTW).

Oh well, I did finally knock it out, so I got that going for me. I also just happen to have a great wife, kid and dog and none of them even noticed that I'd been wearing my O-4 rank for 15 months straight months without having completed ACSC via correspondence. Crazy.

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This entire thread reinforces the age-old addage: timing is everything, and there is no justice.

My advice as a 12 year major/11F: do what's best for you and your family. We will all (most of us) spend a much longer part of our lives as husbands/fathers or wives/mothers than active military officers.

Edited by Pancake
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I almost want to say it is a self-licking ice cream cone type of problem. I see it happening one of two ways:

1: CC says "get your AAD and PME done." People get it done. New people show up, these people tell the new people to get it done faster. Repeat. Probably not as likely as the next scenario.

2: CC says get it done. People stiff-arm it. One dude decides to just get it done because it's the right time (he has the time etc). Another dude decides to get it done as fast as possible so he wastes less time. The last dude decides he's going to do it because it will look good that he did it so fast. CC bitches out the others who have not done it as they don't have the time or whatever reason...this process continues to the point where you see the bullshit of "get it done before you have to" and 1Lts trying to sign up for SOS in correspondence and Capts scrambling to min run the online course for ACSC before they pin on. Hell, I've even seen some school selects min running the ACSC correspondence course when they know they're probably going to go in residence.

break break

zrooster: I'm not advocating the halo effect as it applies to flying...that one gets people killed or injured and planes broken. Knowing your shit, being shit hot, and using that to deflect queep does not mutually exclude what you're saying.

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SHACK!

I get it...commanders are busy. Senior raters just don't have the time to get to know EVERYONE. Using PME/AAD as a discriminator just makes their job easier when dishing out Ps and DPs. I've seen it firsthand where senior raters don't even look at packages (STS) but separate the P's and DP's by who has a Masters and who doesn't. They are essentially trying to make it easier to distinguish between officers that they perceive as "leaders" because they show drive and initiative and those who "just do their jobs." It appears that they aren't even looking at OPRs anymore. Why would they? It is time consuming, has a lot of fluff, and everyone is a winner. They look not only at IF you have an AAD/PME but WHEN you finished it. Really? That makes a great leader? I guess that makes our missileer force the best of the best since in the course of doing their jobs on alert, they are afforded the greatest opportunity to finish PME/Masters the fastest. So, in short...I do the ACSC Master's program, takes a year and a half to finish, I graduate with a 4.0, I get another Masters out of it...but somehow Capt Shmuckatelli does the crash course, finished in 6 weeks, min ran the program with 75% (or whatever the min score is) and somehow he is a better leader than I am? Is this really the line of thinking? CC's and former CC's please chime in...

I think this is where O-3s can have an impact. Stop using cookie-cutter OPRs, and start really stratifying your people. Brief that strat to the SQ/CC, so he has something concrete to use instead of Master's/SOS/ACSC.

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I see what you're saying about not having the time as a senior Capt/Maj to work on a Masters degree the way things are run TODAY, but I think it is because you are looking at it as just a requirement to "check the box" to get promoted instead of a program that could benefit the AF. That goes back to my point from Gen Jumper's policy...If you need to get a Masters, the Air Force will send you. So YES if we do it right, you will have time as a Major to do your masters if the AF is sending you to get a Masters. While you're a LT/Capt, you'll have more time to learn your job, run Stan/Eval, instruct FNGs, spend time with family all without worrying about Master's classes because the AF will send you later when you get that staff job that requires it. Spending millions of dollars on worthless degrees so someone can look good to a promotion board and the Air Force can brag about percentages of officers with AAD is wasteful.

The way I look at a Masters degree is that the Air Force SHOULD be spending money on AADs that directly benefit the USAF. A career pilot with a Masters of Health Science degree isn't helping anyone. Sending an officer to get a Masters of Logistics Management or Operations Management or Human Factors in Safety, because you plan to put them in job that uses that degree, makes sense to me. The way we do it now does not.

I agree with you. The Air Force should use the masters/AAD programs to provide additional capability. They would be better served by sending bright young officers to an in-residence masters program at an accredited univeristy for 1-2 years than some BS PME at Maxwell (and then calling it a "masters").

The sad fact is that the AF doesn't do it that way. That doesn't make it right, that just makes it the way it is. Everyone knows the game, so just fucking play it! Check the damned box and move on. Sometimes you can't fight city hall.

Wait, you are familiar with how long training is for aviators right? And how long it takes to complete most masters programs right? Because the brand new shiny pilots showing up to my unit after UPT, FTU, various casual times and/or BITs, etc. are all either within 6 months of pinning captain or more likely already Captains. When are they supposed to do that masters again? Sooo...yea, your prescribed path isn't even achievable.

If I ran the AF, anyone even thinking about getting their masters before they had a solid year in their first operational squadron would be kicked square in the nuts for losing focus on their primary job. And I'm all for education...I tried to educational delay out of ROTC and the AF told me no, so it's not about not seeing the value in having an MA, especially post-military. The timing you're suggesting is where I see a big problem and where most young officers see the problem as well.

Navs have it a little better, I was checked out and deployed right as I pinned on 1Lt. I started my masters the month I graduated nav school (i.e. worked on it concurrently with the FTU) and am still working to finish it up as I pin O-3...looks like I'm way behind on the Bergman power curve. There goes my BTZ to O-6!

Huh? You start out by saying that my timeline isn't achievable, then finish by saying that you followed my timeline exactly. WTF? I said, "...by the time you've been a Captain for a year". You're pinning on Captain and finishing it, right? Check. FWIW I had been a Captain for 14 months when I finished mine. So yeah, maybe I am just trying to pay it forward and help the new guys out on here by learning from my mistakes.

Realistically this is what most people do (myself included) but it's a defeatist attitude if that's what you believe deep down. I refuse to validate stupid shit just because it was the price I had to pay to play the game. I want it to be easier, more streamlined, and more mission-focused for the next guy.

The problem is that if you don't play the game and check the box now, you'll never promote high enough to help make these changes.

I believe there was a quote out there about being someone versus doing something...I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be somebody so I might as well try to do this.

Now THAT is a defeatist attitude.

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The sad fact is that the AF doesn't do it that way. That doesn't make it right, that just makes it the way it is. Everyone knows the game, so just fucking play it! Check the damned box and move on. Sometimes you can't fight city hall.

This is wrong on so many levels. Just because it's bullshit is a great reason to fight to get the system changed...it's a bullshit system! When guys can point to a leader who not too long ago advocated that the AF would send you to get a MA if you needed on (Jumper) I don't think it's a stretch to seek leadership with similar views today. WE ARE CITY HALL and if, as officers and mostly pilots here, we can't change the system we truly have lost our souls to the bureaucracy.

Huh? You start out by saying that my timeline isn't achievable, then finish by saying that you followed my timeline exactly. WTF? I said, "...by the time you've been a Captain for a year". You're pinning on Captain and finishing it, right? Check. FWIW I had been a Captain for 14 months when I finished mine. So yeah, maybe I am just trying to pay it forward and help the new guys out on here by learning from my mistakes.

You said...

Am I advocating that you start a masters program 2 months after finishing MQT? No. But there is no excuse for not having it done as a Lt, or certainly by the time you've been a Captain for a year.

No excuse to get it done as an LT is pretty unrealistic when dudes are in UPT/FTU as an LT. If you want guys doing their MA in pilot training or during the FTU well I have nothing for you sir.

And "certainly by time you've been a Captain for a year" means that dudes would have, in many cases, less than 1 year to complete a MA program because they're arriving to the operational squadrons as freshly pinned captains. You're aware that most MA programs take longer than 1 year, correct? That's why your advice strikes a ridiculous cord...my example (as a nav with less time spent in training, not a pilot) of starting early serves to show that even when I worked on my MA concurrently with the FTU (not recommended), I still will barely finish by the Bergman Timeline of Success. And for what? What benefit does the AF get by me doing my MA right now? I got personal benefit from doing it but that was a choice, it should not be a requirement. Technique only on my part and you're preaching technique as procedure and frankly the AF agrees with you.

I also said I was a big fan of staying in school and tried to do educational delay, I happily did my MA. But for dudes who don't feel the same way, do you really want freshly qualified guys forcibly concentrating on shit other than learning to be experts in their respective MWSs?? When you tell a brand new LT or Captain who should be learning how to not suck in the jet and how to employ his weapons system downrange that he should be doing his MA, that's a loss of mission focus.

Now THAT is a defeatist attitude.

It's only defeatist if the primary goal is to be promoted. Bold for emphasis.

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This entire thread reinforces the age-old addage: timing is everything, luck counts, and there is no justice.

FIFY

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The sad fact is that the AF doesn't do it that way. That doesn't make it right, that just makes it the way it is. Everyone knows the game, so just ######ing play it! Check the damned box and move on. Sometimes you can't fight city hall.

The problem is that if you don't play the game and check the box now, you'll never promote high enough to help make these changes.

Bergman, nothing against you personally, but that attitude and line of thinking is exactly the reason why we waste money and no one cares to change it. You are correct, that is the way it is TODAY and if you want to get promoted high enough to help make changes, you have to do it. But continuing the attitude of "that's the way it is or has always been" is the reason why officers who bitched about these very things 10 years ago are the same ones dishing it out today. They are in a position to change it but they don't because now that they have been promoted things like that don't seem that important and why? "That's what they had to do to get promoted."

All I'm saying is how we mandate it TODAY promotes inefficiencies and wasteful spending. Using when you complete a masters as a measuring stick for promotion is backwards thinking. It assumes everyone is afforded the same amount of free time to complete it. Good luck AFSOC bubbas! It shouldn't be a requirement for Lt, Capts or promotion to Major, and it needs to change...TODAY. We no longer have the money to support this inefficiency.

Again, education is important. The AF is going to pay for your Masters, so do it for YOU. But, don't penalize those who do it on their own timeline. How about using something like, I don't know, JOB KNOWLEDGE AND PERFORMANCE to measure if someone is promotable or not...just a thought.

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When guys can point to a leader who not too long ago advocated that the AF would send you to get a MA if you needed on (Jumper) I don't think it's a stretch to seek leadership with similar views today.

Uh, let me give you some context here...

If you knew him you know he always absolutely expected people to get it done. What he meant by "we'll send you to get one" was that the selected/lucky minority would get credit for a masters through PME and the rest could blow it off at their peril. Good people took these words as an excuse to blow off their master's and got left at the alter come promotion time.

No excuse to get it done as an LT is pretty unrealistic when dudes are in UPT/FTU as an LT. If you want guys doing their MA in pilot training or during the FTU well I have nothing for you sir.

Wait, what? Who said that?

Technique only on my part and you're preaching technique as procedure and frankly the AF agrees with you.

I didn't hear preaching.

But for dudes who don't feel the same way, do you really want freshly qualified guys forcibly concentrating on shit other than learning to be experts in their respective MWSs?? When you tell a brand new LT or Captain who should be learning how to not suck in the jet and how to employ his weapons system downrange that he should be doing his MA, that's a loss of mission focus.

How much time does your masters degree demand of you? Not an accusation, a real question.

Again, education is important. The AF is going to pay for your Masters, so do it for YOU. But, don't penalize those who do it on their own timeline.

:beer:

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