What's wrong with the Air Force?

[arg]

I forgot what thread I was in. Anyway I know of two instances where a 16th SOS Evaluator Gunner took down co-pilots. The way it worked then was the gunner filled out the Fm8 and the CC either concurred or non concurred. Both cases he concurred. The infraction? Walking between #3 engine and the fuselage while the engine was running. Yes, it happened twice, several years apart.

[ViperStud]

I don't even know anyone that has had a Q-2, the worst I've heard of is a Q-1 1 hit. People ###### up, we debrief it and move on...it's what we do every day. Aside from blatant safety violations (iPad charge/reading some bs briefing verbatim...are you ######ing kidding me?), what does Q-3ing someone accomplish? Instrument checks are an annoyance that get in the way of actual training missions.

EDIT: Last sentence was cut off...the internet is hard.

Translation - you don't know anyone that openly admits to having a Q3. There is a lot more blood out there than you realize, even in ACC. For a lot of dudes it's either a wake-up call or just a shitty sortie. They recover from it and move on with life, often it gets buried and later commanders don't even know.

I've seen several, but never for something so BS as a wedding ring, ipad charge or improperly verbalized checklist item that was performed correctly. If I tried to Q3 a dude for said offense, my CC would stare at me like I had a pair of tits hanging from my cranium. Maybe that's the real difference between communities. I've had only one boss that would be such a cork soaker. Don't worry though, he's a full bird now riding his wife's coattails on the fast track.

Edit: such, not suck. Though he does suck

Edited October 16, 2013 by ViperStud

[Majestik Møøse]

On the KC-10 side, all of the good dudes I looked up to when I first showed up have jumped ship. All of them. Reserves, airlines, other jets, or just plain quit. The active-duty leadership in 6-9 years will be made up of the uncool kids who decided to hang around, bolstered by a few senior captains who know what they're doing. Not a good outlook, IMHO.

[Fly]

Honest question because I don't know the answer - why the ###### do people in the AMC world care if a pilot flies with a wedding ring?

In the C-17 it's in the handheld checklist "Snagged finger rings have caused many serious injuries. Unless specifically allowed by safety procedures, removal of finger rings during all phases of flight operations is required."

It's also in the mission briefing guide. My guess it's to provide justification for some married smuck, "but honey, I'm required to remove my wedding ring when I go fly/TDY"

As an EP, would I q-3 someone for forgetting to remove their ring? No. A simple professional reminder would suffice. When flying multi-million dollar aircraft with a complex mission set such as the C-17, you have much bigger fish to fry when it comes to determining whether or not someone is qualified.

[Majestik Møøse]

In the C-17 it's in the handheld checklist "Snagged finger rings have caused many serious injuries. Unless specifically allowed by safety procedures, removal of finger rings during all phases of flight operations is required."

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?acc_keyword=%22Ring%22&keyword_list=on

Basically about once a year some factory worker gets his ring finger caught on a bolt and amputated. At some point Air Force SE guys heard this info and banned aircrew from wearing rings, because apparently we're always touching lots of bolts. At some later point, it became a popular gee-whiz debrief item for low-SA doucher evaluators. And finally, it became a popular bitching topic on Baseops.net, and thus it has made the big time.

[sky_king]

I stopped wearing my wedding ring when I welded my hand between a car's battery terminal and frame. So many adventures while working a college job at Jiffy Lube...

[Duck]

On the KC-10 side, all of the good dudes I looked up to when I first showed up have jumped ship. All of them. Reserves, airlines, other jets, or just plain quit. The active-duty leadership in 6-9 years will be made up of the uncool kids who decided to hang around, bolstered by a few senior captains who know what they're doing. Not a good outlook, IMHO.

And... Shack

[Ram]

Shack!

The ring story should have been a two sentence conversation that never made it to BODN.

"Hey dude, you still have your ring on. Crap, my bad...(as the dude removed his ring)."

Conversation over.

Disagree.

"Dude, you still have your ring on."

"So?"

::silence::

Q-1 no hits.

I've had only one boss that would be suck a cork soaker.

[osulax05]

Don't worry though, he's a full bird now riding his wife's coattails on the fast track.

Yogi?

[brabus]

That's who popped into my mind as well.

WTF did I just read

I think "suck a coark soaker" translates to "such a cock sucker." I speak Whiskey, or I'm way off, one of the two.

[backseatdriver]

I believe he was referencing this SNL skit:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=979_1349562393

***Due to other stuff on LiveLeak, link is NSFW.***

Edited October 16, 2013 by backseatdriver

[HiFlyer]

https://www.osha.gov...keyword_list=on

Basically about once a year some factory worker gets his ring finger caught on a bolt and amputated. At some point Air Force SE guys heard this info and banned aircrew from wearing rings, because apparently we're always touching lots of bolts. At some later point, it became a popular gee-whiz debrief item for low-SA doucher evaluators. And finally, it became a popular bitching topic on Baseops.net, and thus it has made the big time.

Actually, I personally have three former AF aircrew acquaintences who now lack a left ring finger. In each case, they caught the ring (while wearing their gloves) in some kind of a rapid, slightly off balance move either inside the aircraft or exiting the cockpit. That period does cover several decades (70s and 80s), but it can happen. I decided not to wear my ring while flying, simply because it was a simple, effective, and painless way to avoid a potential hazard.

While not a frequent and widespread issue, Its not just urban legend either..

Edited October 16, 2013 by HiFlyer

[ViperStud]

Yogi?

You know it. Fvck that guy. Also, SNL confirmed it should have been "such a cork soaker" to get by the mods.

How appropriate a thread, Dbags like him are exactly what's wrong with the Air Force.

Edited October 16, 2013 by ViperStud

[Duck]

Anyone want to post his bio for full FS humiliation and shaming purposes?

[Rusty Pipes]

Probably one of the biggest issues with checkrides/evaluators is that AMC for the most part views the upgrade to EP as something that enhances your career vs a position given to your experienced instructors. As a result, many evaluators view the sortie thru a soda straw and seemingly take pride in producing bloody form 8s.

Yes and no... it depends on the Commanders. The EP upgrade in AMC is absolutely seen as a career box checker... I have yet to see a cross flow/Intern type golden boy who was not rushed to IP then EP so they could put it on a PRF and leadership was usually pretty blatant about it. With that being said, I have very rarely seen one of them be a Q-3 happy EP. I think the "bloody Form 8" tone is set by the Sq CC (sometimes the OG). When I was a Sq Chief of Stan/Eval in AMC my otherwise complete douche of a Sq CC told me that unless someone was bending metal or being unsafe that we shouldn't be talking about Q-3s. I'll give him credit for shacking that one... the year I was in the job we gave 2 Q-3s and it was for 2 co-pilots in a sim check both over speeding the "jet" and for not doing bold face (and we even had a discussion with the boss of any way we could not Q-3 the kids).

I think the biggest problem in AMC comes from the old mentality still held by Commanders that "there are those who have Q-3d and those who will"... which is complete bullshit! Just an observation from my own experience here, but I usually saw that coming from a lot of bosses who spent more time worried about their PRFs and Strats than being a good pilot so they had a Q-3 or two in their own FEFs (and misery loves company). I have also seen multiple Commander directed "queep Q-3s" in AMC from the OG/CC level and below to non-golden boy crew dawgs from bosses who have a chip on their shoulder about even the idea of guys thinking about jumping ship after their ADSC is up for a possible airline job... queep they would never consider Q-3ing their golden boys for. They could care less that these guys may need to explain this Q-3 at an interview someday because if you don't want to be just like them they think you are a scum bag. I've unfortunately ran into several of those dudes over the years in the MAF.

[TreeA10]

If that is what is happening in AMC, it is an absolute pile of chickenshit. Nobody ever goes out and flies a perfect ride every time. Just does not happen. If the guy could get safely to and from the target, handle an IFE, and fly an approach in order to get another jet and go out and kill more bad guys, he was good to go. Throwing down Q-3s from Mt. Olympus is an even higher level of chickenshit. UFB. Micromanagement at its worse.

[Homestar]

Honest question because I don't know the answer - why the fuck do people in the AMC world care if a pilot flies with a wedding ring?

It can scratch the paint job on the yoke. /sarcasm

[Majestik Møøse]

Actually, I personally have three former AF aircrew acquaintences who now lack a left ring finger. In each case, they caught the ring (while wearing their gloves) in some kind of a rapid, slightly off balance move either inside the aircraft or exiting the cockpit. That period does cover several decades (70s and 80s), but it can happen. I decided not to wear my ring while flying, simply because it was a simple, effective, and painless way to avoid a potential hazard.

While not a frequent and widespread issue, Its not just urban legend either..

Holy shit, well ok then.

[brabus]

How appropriate a thread, Dbags like him are exactly what's wrong with the Air Force.

I remember when that guy flew in the red air block the entire DCA vul (on purpose, thinking it was the blue block), and when he figured it out in debrief, he grounded 2-4 (2 and 4 were not far out of MQT and 3 was a newer flight lead) for a week, but did not ground himself or even once utter anything resembling an "I fucked up," "I need to do X next time," etc. You could feel the collective "what the fuck!?" in the room. Dbag is an understatement.

[WeatherManC130]

I remember when that guy flew in the red air block the entire DCA vul (on purpose, thinking it was the blue block), and when he figured it out in debrief, he grounded 2-4 (2 and 4 were not far out of MQT and 3 was a newer flight lead) for a week, but did not ground himself or even once utter anything resembling an "I ######ed up," "I need to do X next time," etc. You could feel the collective "what the ######!?" in the room. Dbag is an understatement.

Maverick: Hard deck my ass. We nailed that son of a b****h. Iceman: Wow, you guys really are cowboys.

[Muscle2002]

I've had only one boss that would be such a cork soaker. Don't worry though, he's a full bird now riding his wife's coattails on the fast track.

Edit: such, not suck. Though he does suck

Is his spouse a sitting FW/CC?

[backseatdriver]

The best "wedding ring" story I've heard was an article in a safety magazine about a F-18 guy who had got his ring caught in the canopy and subsequently lost his finger.

The best part was post-incident his squadron renamed him.....to "Shocker"

[ViperStud]

I remember when that guy flew in the red air block the entire DCA vul (on purpose, thinking it was the blue block), and when he figured it out in debrief, he grounded 2-4 (2 and 4 were not far out of MQT and 3 was a newer flight lead) for a week, but did not ground himself or even once utter anything resembling an "I ######ed up," "I need to do X next time," etc. You could feel the collective "what the ######!?" in the room. Dbag is an understatement.

How about dropping an LGB downrange with your laser off, then not saying anything about it until a week later when you have a pilot meeting and tell everyone that the next guy to screw up is getting sent home. What a joke.

http://www.kunsan.af.mil/library/biographies/bio.asp?id=14721

[17D_guy]

How about dropping an LGB downrange with your laser off, then not saying anything about it until a week later when you have a pilot meeting and tell everyone that the next guy to screw up is getting sent home. What a joke.

http://www.kunsan.af...io.asp?id=14721

So, as a non-pilot... how is this guy still getting promoted? If he's such a joke/ass to you guys, and you're bros.. why is he where he is? You guys are a small community, you know each other. I'm not trying to ask in an asinine/shoe/douche way. I just have a hard time understanding how a tight knit community has these issues. Isn't there some other O6 who just throws this bastard into the fire? How have his failings in the aircraft not been reflected in some career impacting way?

Please note - small community isn't meant in a derogatory manner. I'm also on some good meds currently, so sorry if it don't make no sense.

EDIT - Saw the bronze star in medals. Is that.. legit? No "V". Heard other stories on here about terrible circumstances with senior officers trying to get shiny chests.

Edited October 17, 2013 by 17D_guy

[Muscle2002]

I just have a hard time understanding how a tight knit community has these issues. Isn't there some other O6 who just throws this bastard into the fire? How have his failings in the aircraft not been reflected in some career impacting way?

Every flying community has these types you described. Often, leadership never hears about these issues; they only see the stuff the subordinate wants them to see--leadership can be ignorant of the fact that the subordinate's unit suffers under their command.