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What's wrong with the Air Force?

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Agreed. Maybe towel folders should just be proud of being the best towel folders they can be. This would imply they actually become proficient at towel folding, but surely that can be managed.

That's dangerous thinking.

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Do you really beleive you could've functioned without any type of PERSCO support? Seriously? C'mon.

Absolutely. "Deployments" in the tanker world are a joke. Send us TDY with a DETCO and some MX support and we'll get the job done with a fraction of the footprint. Doesn't work for everybody, but you gotta admit there is a shit ton of tail for very few teeth in the AF. Completely agree on knowing your role though. Truth is unless your toting your M-16 through the mud, you're the support in this war. The difference between me and finance is that I'll be there on time, 365 days and nights a year, in any weather, every time. I don't close up shop so I can complete my ADLS CBTs. Wish the people supporting me took their jobs as seriously as I do mine.

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Truth is unless your toting your M-16 through the mud, you're the support in this war.

I agree with most of your post, but I think this particular statement significantly downplays the role and usefulness of airpower. There are places in the world where the GWOT (or OCO for you new school types) consists of multiple air assets working together and killing terrorists with little or no US presence on the ground. In the past I know air advocates have made a similar mistake- assuming ground forces are outdated and any war can be prosecuted and won by air dominance alone. OIF/OEF proved just how wrong and ignorant this mindset was. Unfortunately I've now seen a trend in the opposite direction where Army guys are absolutely certain air is a support function only; but they are usually not read in on places we're at war where they aren't. In the end we are all just tools for violence, and depending on the particulars of the game you might want air/ground or air alone. Really can't imagine a scenario where you'd ever want ground alone without air support. Ergo, I don't think your generalization above is correct.

Edit to add "ergo" which is a fun word I enjoy using.

Edited by tac airlifter
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I agree with most of your post, but I think this particular statement significantly the role and usefulness of airpower. There are places in the world where the GWOT (or OCO for you new school types) consists of multiple air assets working together and killing terrorists with little or no US presence on the ground. In the past I know air advocates have made a similar mistake- assuming ground forces are outdated and any war can be prosecuted and won by air dominance alone. OIF/OEF proved just how wrong and ignorant this mindset was. Unfortunately I've now seen a trend in the opposite direction where Army guys are absolutely certain air is a support function only; but they are usually not read in on places we're at war where they aren't. In the end we are all just tools for violence, and depending on the particulars of the game you might want air/ground or air alone. Really can't imagine a scenario where you'd ever want ground alone without air support. Ergo, I don't think your generalization above is correct.

We can discuss hypothetical wars if you want...but right now, the mission is an 18-year-old with a rifle.

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Zrooster, had to reach way back in time to find this (thanks google site search!) but I know I've said the exact same thing on occasion around here too. Here's your quote from 2009 (I kept the best parts intact):

We, as officers, need to be able to exercise judgment and not just blindly follow the regs....Have you ever walked up to an intersection late a night, with no traffic, and crossed against the signal? Was it against the law? Yes. Was it good judgment? I would argue, also, yes. You could have stood there for 10 minutes waiting for the light to change, obeyed the law, and been safe. But, to what end. We as officers are paid to THINK...I'm not saying we should ignore AFIs, but there's a difference between not wearing your reflective belt and not following -1 guidance that could be dangerous. This bullshit of "if you can't follow the simple regs. how can I trust you to do the important stuff" is the same as a bullshit moral equivalency argument...Then you have the people that say, "well, you're setting a bad example for the troops". Sorry, I've got to throw the bullshit flag on that one too. A good NCO can explain to the troops that an officer is paid to exercise judgment. An A1C is not paid to do so, or is to a lesser degree. That's why the consequences for failure are higher for officers.

Having said this in 2009 and knowing you sat in the same room I sat in today, I unfortunately think everything you ranted about here was just validated as the new policy of a certain installation. All rules are equally important; officers are not allowed to exercise discretion; rolling up your sleeves somehow telegraphs to your troops that they can break rules; etc. etc. etc. And to top it off, if you're in a situation where you can be accused of breaking a rule, especially if it can be written up as an ARI, you're are guilty of conduct unbecoming an officer just for being in that situation. Never mind if you're actually guilty of anything or were even actually taking part in said event...disgusting.

I threw up in my mouth at least 3 times in about an hour's time span.

Edited by nsplayr
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Dude, there is nothing hypothetical about it. If you don't know I'm certainly not going to conduct your read-in.

I'd bet a good fortune that my 'read-in' is much bigger than yours. Don't be ignorant. With VERY few exceptions the AF is the supporting command. Embrace it.

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I'd bet a good fortune that my 'read-in' is much bigger than yours. Don't be ignorant. With VERY few exceptions the AF is the supporting command. Embrace it.

This war.

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I'd bet a good fortune that my 'read-in' is much bigger than yours. Don't be ignorant. With VERY few exceptions the AF is the supporting command. Embrace it.

It depends....

Supporting, supported, gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a shit? We fight as a joint force to kill people and break their shit.

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Nice dick measuring from some of our resident "special" flyers.

Whatever happened to "quiet professionals"?

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These guys make me proud to be in the AF. 69% of everyone else makes me ashamed.

Truly incredible. Thanks for sharing and cheers to everyone who helped save our guys and crush the enemy.

"When a Chinook carrying the special operators arrived, the firefight flared again. An AC-130 soon arrived. The ground troops placed infrared strobes, and the Spooky pounded the northern ridgeline with its 105mm cannons."

"That's when we felt the tides were turning," McCaffrey said. "It was like, holy crap, we're going to make it through this."

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I'd say this is the third 'period of insanity' I've seen in my time in.

The first was in the late 80s. I was sitting in FTD class at Barksdale with a lot of other guys who just showed up from tech school. The instructor comes in, looks at all of us, and asks, "who wants to get out?" Three guys raised their hands, all had just reported from 6-9 month schools, and were out of Big Blue within a month. Guess what? The rest of us had to do Rivet Workforce CDCs and pick up their slack. The 'Peace Dividend' was probably not the first example of AF 'slam-slam' personnel management, but it was the first one I was personally involved in.

The second was the late 90s 'crud' that bit a lot of us. Endless OPC/ONW/OSW deployments, shrinking dollars, pilots flocking to the airlines, etc. In Polifka, a FAIP asks the SECAF how much longer they would have to work six-day weeks because of shortages of personnel, and the guy on stage goes on a rant on how tough it was to run his private law practice. We booed him off the stage (love that 'academic' setting), and were bitched out for disrespecting him (with a wink from the instructors). Leadership just didn't seem to 'get it'. Of course, Groundhog Day ended in '01.

The third started a few years back when the 'Support our Troops' magnetic decals on cars started to fade, and the country began to get 'war fatigue'. The military got it, too, as we began to forget about the mission and came up with ways to keep the troops on their toes - reflective belts in combat zones, uniform changes every five minutes and copying the other services' bad ideas, and otherwise nagging queep that has made us all bitter as hell. Big Blue has been demonstrating to a nauseating degree on how style reigns over content.

Terminal in November - good luck to all of you that have to work your way out of this one. I'll tell you now, this one is the worst by far, and it will take years to crawl out of it.

Short list:

1. There are Bronze Stars and there are Bronze Stars. Hey SNCOs and O6s/GOs...some of us know the difference.

2. Green Days...who the fuck are you kidding about 'saving energy'?

3. PT gear...enough said.

4. PT until you drop...permanent injuries are not worth it guys, even the 10% disability I'll get from a bum foot.

5. Ducking responsibility and making rank - sure, it's common on the outside, but I once thought we were different. My mistake.

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Absolutely. "Deployments" in the tanker world are a joke. Send us TDY with a DETCO and some MX support and we'll get the job done with a fraction of the footprint.

You don't know what you don't know. Somewhere someone is supplying support for your little deployment and it is all invisible to you. Stick around and take command and you'll get a glimpse of what I'm talking about. No need to respond, I'm not arguing this one with you because you are disputing things that are fucking facts, not techniques.

The difference between me and finance is that I'll be there on time, 365 days and nights a year, in any weather, every time. I don't close up shop so I can complete my ADLS CBTs. Wish the people supporting me took their jobs as seriously as I do mine.

Please.

I get your point but the hyperbole detracts from the message.

Technique only.

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I'd bet a good fortune that my 'read-in' is much bigger than yours. Don't be ignorant.

Please. My nature is to apply a direct challenge to your statement but I can only facepalm instead.

Look in the mirror and read what you wrote out loud.

With VERY few exceptions the AF is the supporting command. Embrace it.

If you were as well read as you claim you would know that the USAF has, in fact, been the supported command. And not in a small way. It is rare but it does happen.

How about, if you have to mention being read in on an open board, you're doing it wrong...

No shit.

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4. Goes along with 3, but use your damn bar. Give guys shit for not hanging out in the bar. Make the bar an expected place for the informal debrief following the formal debrief. Make it a point to gather the squadron together in the bar, with morale patches and all, and lock the door so that REMFs can't get in or see what's going on. Hold on the the small bits of heritage we have left.

The bar should never be mandatory, nor should you give guys shit for not hanging out in the bar after a debrief every day. The bar is a great place for tradition and camaraderie (and some learning), but it should never be forced. You're just keeping dudes from their families and real lives while you shoot your watch. If you didn't get the appropriate lessons learned in your debrief in the vault in a timely manner, you're doing it wrong (or you don't have a mission that requires a vault debrief).

Now roll calls, First Fridays, et al? Cleared hot. Lock the fucking door and expect attendance or assess bar fines appropriately.

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You don't know what you don't know. Somewhere someone is supplying support for your little deployment and it is all invisible to you. Stick around and take command and you'll get a glimpse of what I'm talking about. No need to respond, I'm not arguing this one with you because you are disputing things that are ######ing facts, not techniques.

The difference is TDY vs. Deployment. Sending me TDY is a lot simpler than deploying me and requires significantly less support. If a guy is going to be gone 2-3 months, home for a few weeks, and out the door again, why go through all the ass-pain of a deployment. Downrange commanders should make allowances for this type of individual. My guys don't need PERSCO, Right Start, or a worthless finance office to get the mission done. Understand small airplanes do it differently so YMMV depending on what you fly, MAJCOM, etc.

Please.

I get your point but the hyperbole detracts from the message.

Technique only.

Yeah....sounded better last night after a few beers than it did this morning sober.

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What's wrong with Air Force?

1. Misplaced focus.

2. A culture which allows support personnel to think their job is the mission.

3. A greater amount of time spent bitching about problems rather than working solutions.

4. Not enough helicopter guys in leadership roles. :thumbsup:

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What's wrong with Air Force?1. Misplaced focus.2. A culture which allows support personnel to think their job is the mission.3. A greater amount of time spent bitching about problems rather than working solutions.4. Not enough helicopter guys in leadership roles. :thumbsup:

Not always a good thing, as evidenced by the new 1st SOW/CC, although most former Pave Low guys I know are good dudes.

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Not always a good thing, as evidenced by the new 1st SOW/CC, although most former Pave Low guys I know are good dudes.

Well f*cking said. 3 of my top 4 leaders I've personally served with were helo dudes so generally I hope for more former pave guys so cycle through, but jesus mary and joseph the things that were said in that auditorium made me damn near vomit.

I'll enforce every rule and regulation equally on a cold day in hell. TPS reports not equal to gear down, they're just not. As an educated and expensively-trained officer I strongly believe one of the chief reasons they pay us more is because we're supposed to use judgement and discretion.

Zipper not to the top of the name tag? NBD. Not on time, on target downrange? Prepare to get your nuts crushed, and that's exactly how it should be.

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Well f*cking said. 3 of my top 4 leaders I've personally served with were helo dudes so generally I hope for more former pave guys so cycle through, but jesus mary and joseph the things that were said in that auditorium made me damn near vomit.

Is that the kind of stuff he said? I've been hearing rumblings but I'm not around HRT right now.

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Is that the kind of stuff he said? I've been hearing rumblings but I'm not around HRT right now.

My big takeaways:

1. You are an officer first and a pilot or AFSOC or a particular squadron second. Anecdote about how you should not feel forced to conform to a particular squadron mentality as a young officer. I.E. "this is how we've always done it around here LT" is insufficient evidence for any officer to do or not do something.

2. Enforce all rules equally; slippery slope; can't trust you to do the big things without the little things, etc. etc. Mentioned sleeves, baseball hats, and the effect those things have on the enlisted perception of the importance of rules.

3. Don't put yourself in a situation where you can be accused of being in the wrong, especially if you have had any drinks. Accused the operative word, not necessarily guilty of anything. This was WRT several recent ARIs involving officers.

4. Be careful with social media and his personal technique is not to be "friends" with anyone junior in rank than himself. Not meant to be guidance because there is no AF guidance.

Someone feel free to chime in if I'm way off base or missing something important. I could tell you the general feeling afterwards but I'm betting you can either guess or ask one of the dudes who was there in person.

Edited by nsplayr

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My big takeaways:

1. You are an officer first and a pilot or AFSOC or a particular squadron second. Anecdote about how you should not feel forced to conform to a particular squadron mentality as a young officer. I.E. "this is how we've always done it around here LT" is insufficient evidence for any officer to do or not do something.

2. Enforce all rules equally; slippery slope; can't trust you to do the big things without the little things, etc. etc. Mentioned sleeves, baseball hats, and the effect those things have on the enlisted perception of the importance of rules.

3. Don't put yourself in a situation where you can be accused of being in the wrong, especially if you have had any drinks. Accused the operative word, not necessarily guilty of anything. This was WRT several recent ARIs involving officers.

4. Be careful with social media and his personal technique is not to be "friends" with anyone junior in rank than himself. Not meant to be guidance because there is no AF guidance.

Someone feel free to chime in if I'm way off base or missing something important. I could tell you the general feeling afterwards but I'm betting you can either guess or ask one of the dudes who was there in person.

It's only the tip of the iceberg my friend. The only progress I've seen made at Cannon AFB in the last 2 years was seeing Group and Wing (to a lesser degree) leadership move on to bigger and better things, leaving room for what could only possibly be an improvement. His impact, although still severely detrimental, was kept in check and therefore lessened on a few significant occasions by the SOW/CC. I can't imagine what you are all in for with nobody above him to keep things from going completely insane. The only plus side is that he's much further removed from the daily business of the Squadrons, so he may not mettle as much.

He's established dominance with the firings, now just wait for the LORs related to uniform violations to start flowing.

I'll enforce every rule and regulation equally on a cold day in hell. TPS reports not equal to gear down, they're just not.

As far as he's concerned they are, and you'd better get on board from his perspective. Ask him about it one day, he's got a prepared response for you. Your only other option is to keep exercising sound judgement, but lay low. Dontcha know, somebody who can't be trusted to dig into the uniform reg and conform, or chooses not to, can't be trusted to dig into 11-2MDSv3 and conform...its been proven.

Does nobody understand that the ACTUAL problem is that you're asking people who you don't trust to distinguish between the two to operate highly complex machinery in a dynamic environment. If you truly believe that the people you have doing that can't tell the difference, THEN GET THEM OUT OF THE DAMN JET, THEY AREN'T MENTALLY COMPETENT TO OPERATE IT. F&CK F&CK F&CK.

I've been counting the days until eligibility for separation. It makes me sick to my stomach that I'm even considering leaving this profession that not long ago I would have done without pay as long as my basic needs were met. He's not the only reason by a long shot, and he's merely representative of the greater issue, but his 'leadership' contributed heavily to my transition from awe that I was lucky enough to be a part of this, to wishing the days and weeks would move faster so that I can punch out for good.

May god have mercy on your souls at Hurlburt. At least you've got civilization and the beach to fall back on.

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