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8 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

It was opposed at the MAJCOM O-6 level. All the MAJCOM/A3s said "Great idea, boss."

Hopefully the final GM includes the added text making the PIC the final decision maker to accept or reject reduced/waived crew rest.

 

PIC has always been the waiver acceptance authority. Also charged with the safe conduct of the flight and mission. 

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23 minutes ago, war007afa said:

PIC has always been the waiver acceptance authority. Also charged with the safe conduct of the flight and mission. 

Not if you ask 603rd or the CAOC's AMD judging by the number of times I heard: "We've got the waiver already approved for you..." when I never asked for it.

I can see both sides of this argument, but I don't understand why they picked this particular target right now.  Like putting a JDAM on the outhouse of a SAM site.  Maybe it's been on the chopping block for a while, but as a priority seems right up there with rolling up sleeves.

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1 hour ago, FourFans130 said:

Not if you ask 603rd or the CAOC's AMD judging by the number of times I heard: "We've got the waiver already approved for you..." when I never asked for it.

I can see both sides of this argument, but I don't understand why they picked this particular target right now.  Like putting a JDAM on the outhouse of a SAM site.  Maybe it's been on the chopping block for a while, but as a priority seems right up there with rolling up sleeves.

The SECAF also made comments at the AFA conference about how "We don't got this" with doing more with less.

 

Crew rest waivers seems exactly like doing more with less.

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I like this change.  I've asked for crew rest waivers and been denied.  If the SQ/CC and AC want it and judge the mission benefit worth the risk, it's dumb that someone disconnected from the mission can deny it.  I guess every corner of the AF is different but our waiver authority is MAJCOM A3 who is not tracking daily missions and will always say no, even for TIC support.  So to me, this is a good change because it removes obstacles to the mission.  If you're worried your leadership will now bully you into accepting missions you aren't safe to execute, well that sucks.  Say no, that's always your right.

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12 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I like this change.  I've asked for crew rest waivers and been denied.  If the SQ/CC and AC want it and judge the mission benefit worth the risk, it's dumb that someone disconnected from the mission can deny it.  I guess every corner of the AF is different but our waiver authority is MAJCOM A3 who is not tracking daily missions and will always say no, even for TIC support.  So to me, this is a good change because it removes obstacles to the mission.  If you're worried your leadership will now bully you into accepting missions you aren't safe to execute, well that sucks.  Say no, that's always your right.

Yes it is your right, and unfortunately I've seen good people get burned for exercising good judgement.  Allowing waivers for crew rest at lower levels even when PIC is final authority weakens his ability to do so without possible reprisal in the form of poor feed back on OPRs for not being a "team player".   Sure I've said no to many, but I've also had really good commanders 90% of the time that backed me up each time, I've seen many whom have not been so lucky.   This is a bad idea, more rest is always better even when you request a waiver your probably better off going to the hotel that night.  The only time I'd even entertain a waiver is if we were stuck in a less than ideal situation for crew rest and continuing on would set us up better in the long run, but that's rare.

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This is ridiculous. I would support lowering the approval to extend a duty day to a level that makes more sense, but I can't foresee circumstances where I would waive my crew rest. Less than 12 hours quickly becomes an insufficient amount of time once you factor in transit time to/from lodging and other issues that will inevitably come up

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Interesting to hear from other corners of the AF about this policy.  We all have our own context, which I think affects the perception of whether this change is good or bad.  For example, it never occurred to me that I should factor in transit to/from a hotel into my 12 hours; I'm accustomed to living a 5 minute walk from my aircraft.  There have been times weather was rolling in and the whole crew is awake sitting around looking at mission slides, and if we don't move takeoff time 45 minutes left we'll be stuck on the field while an op is happening elsewhere.  Of course we asked for a crew rest waiver-- we're all feeling great and if we don't leave earlier than expected, we miss the action.  I see this change as enabling those situations, but that's my context.  I haven't experienced a CC pushing me to fly when I know I'm unsafe.

I guess some folks are afraid they'll be pressured into flying an extra leg when everyone is beat, or worried they won't have enough time to check in/out of the hotel.  I don't have any response except: be a professional, know your limits, and speak truth to power.  From my viewpoint, this change pushes authority to people with the best ground truth of a situation.  If you have no faith in those people and have been previously relying on regs to protect you.... well, that sucks.  

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2 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

There have been times weather was rolling in and the whole crew is awake sitting around looking at mission slides, and if we don't move takeoff time 45 minutes left we'll be stuck on the field while an op is happening elsewhere.  Of course we asked for a crew rest waiver-- we're all feeling great and if we don't leave earlier than expected, we miss the action.  I see this change as enabling those situations, but that's my context.  I haven't experienced a CC pushing me to fly when I know I'm unsafe.

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

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17 minutes ago, RTB said:

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

It does or at least should have started it.

Edited by LookieRookie
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1 hour ago, RTB said:

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Edited by tac airlifter
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25 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations.

If we show to the jet, AMCC, squadron, etc. then my crew has started the FDP. Brief time doesn’t start our clock in AMC; show time (at the aforementioned locations) does.

If I’m awake and check the weather or SMS from my hotel room, then I’m not breaking crew rest by 202V3 2.1.2. If I get on the bus, I am still in the 12 hours of crew rest set aside for transportation, meals, etc.

This is why we have MAJCOM and Wing supplements...MAJCOMs have operational authority.

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55 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Well that escalated quickly.  

25 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations

Apparently so.   Good info, sounds quite a bit different.  If we were briefing a mission or reviewing mission slides at the squadron or ops facility, our crew rest was over.

Edited by RTB
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6 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

I've always thought limits were set for a reason.  If anything goes wrong, whether fatigue related or not, extending your day is going to be questioned by just about everybody and will be the first nail driven by the higher food chain CYA crowd.

I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up?

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58 minutes ago, dream big said:

I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up?

There are people who think that...but not the people who write the 202/217.

Speaking of which...new 217V1 “soon.” God help us all!

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