What's wrong with the Air Force?

[dream big]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

Sorry, I probably should have also mentioned Songtan Sally moved to Camp Humphreys and will no longer seduce you into a sewer with a red balloon. 

She has been around since Nam I’m sure 

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

She has been around since Nam I’m sure 

You lose track of time. It 0110 past curfew and you're 6 Moscow Mules in at G2's. You try to walk back to your apartment without getting caught but make a mistake detour to EFES kebab for some sleep snacks. As you step out, in front of you is town patrol, walking your direction. You look left, you look right, and in a side alley there is Songton Sally. "Honey... Honey.... Come here....." You have the aircraft: 

Edited July 30, 2020 by FLEA

[12xu2a3x3]

On 7/30/2020 at 5:22 AM, FLEA said:

It's worth noting that in the last 2 years some huge QOL changes happened in Korea as well. Curfew is permanently gone so far as the order is rescinded and would need reissued with new justification for reinstating it. The bases have spent a lot of money upgrading facilities and morale areas. They've opened a significant number of more command sponsored billets. I want to say ~30-50%. Yongsan has moved to Humphreys which added a significant capacity for medical care and other services to the Osan local area. You automatically get to live off base if you plan to be there longer than a year. So lots of good changes. 

i was there when i was enlisted, there was a curfew and i was at kunsan and yet, i still had the time of my life. truly excited at the prospect of going back, without all that but i have approx 69k steps between me and the U-2 let alone being able to go back to korea.

it's good to hear there will be shit to do there other than getting wasted; while this is an absolutely essential and time honored tradition in the land of the morning fog hangover and drinking rice wine out of a dog bowl, it would be nice help the junior among us at least be able to do literally anything else. there great sharks to see in the yellow sea!

[12xu2a3x3]

Korea is the only place I have been so drunk and yet lucid enough to have the thought, "I cannot believe how fucked up i am right now."

[FLEA]

I loved it because of how convenient it was having Seoul to lilipad across all of Asia. It's so cheap to get to Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Bali, Guam, Okinawa, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Mongolia..... 

The leave policy while I was there was you could be anywhere in PACOM and not be on leave as long as you made it back by your next duty day. Took 4 day passes all over and had the time of my life. 

Was super fortunate to work with some first gen Korean Americans who got me out of the SED and to some of the better restaurants as well. Food in Korea is phenomenal if you can be just a little bit adventurous! 

[Majestik Møøse]

10 hours ago, 12xu2a3x3 said:

Korea is the only place I have been so drunk and yet lucid enough to have the thought, "I cannot believe how fucked up i am right now."

That’s the Bacchus D

[Sprkt69]

1 hour ago, Majestik Møøse said:

That’s the Bacchus D

Did someone say Kettles?!?

[brabus]

24 minutes ago, Sprkt69 said:

Did someone say Kettles?!?

Sure I’ll have 10 or 11...good part is the alley out the back door of Xanadu’s makes a nice nap location while waiting out curfew. 

[YoungnDumb]

Xanadu's actually burned down while I was there.  Turned out it was the last night for kettles for a while.  They rebuilt and reopened a few months later but it just wasn't the same, didn't stick to every surface, it was well lit...just not the same.

[Majestik Møøse]

How about the “Ukrainian” (aka Russian) honeypots? It wouldn’t be Xanadu without the overt espionage threat and all the bros talking around things

[Prosuper]

Just trying to get smarter here, how many guys on here know MX officers and have conversations with them about about the dismal morale that their troops have stateside. Been on Facebook reading a new group called roll call, did not realize on how much the mental anguish of serving in a MX sq is now. My day we worked hard, played hard, got caught, disciplined,  but as long we got the job done our MX officers took care of us. What happened? In the 80's and 90's we never heard of guys committing suicide, do we not allow these guys to blow off steam? One mistake is a career ender? Towards the end of my career I tried to stay deployed so I wouldn't have to deal with my supervision stateside, not good for my family but great for my mental health and blood pressure. Do you guys notice it stepping to the jet or just say it's not my problem, Thank God? 

[dream big]

2 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Just trying to get smarter here, how many guys on here know MX officers and have conversations with them about about the dismal morale that their troops have stateside. Been on Facebook reading a new group called roll call, did not realize on how much the mental anguish of serving in a MX sq is now. My day we worked hard, played hard, got caught, disciplined,  but as long we got the job done our MX officers took care of us. What happened? In the 80's and 90's we never heard of guys committing suicide, do we not allow these guys to blow off steam? One mistake is a career ender? Towards the end of my career I tried to stay deployed so I wouldn't have to deal with my supervision stateside, not good for my family but great for my mental health and blood pressure. Do you guys notice it stepping to the jet or just say it's not my problem, Thank God? 

I do.  Some of my good friends are Mx Os. MX is a tough career field, and they tend to eat their own.  At Yokota, multiple suicides in the AMXS that got MAJCOM level attention.  Here at Dyess, the MX morale can’t be better nor can the OPS/MX relationship, but that may be a product of having a Wing with only OPS and MX.  

I think part of the problem was separating MX from the flying squadrons into its own Group.  When MX was part of the flying squadron, there was more of a sense of belonging and pride in the mission.  Also, I can see a flying squadron commander applying the “debrief culture” to maintainers...ie, it’s okay to make mistakes.  That is how we learn, instead of crushing a dude for a minor mistake which is a cultural issue in many MX groups. 

Anyways, I always try to converse with my maintainers on locals and loop them into the mission, and I treat my flying crew chiefs as part of the crew.  Most of the maintainers I know love their jobs.  They love turning wrenches and get great pleasure out of seeing the mission happen.  Seeing the 33 ship (largest C-130J formation) takeoff out of Dyess last month put a smile on every maintainer’s face.  Totally worth the weeks of planning we put into it. 

 

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Just trying to get smarter here, how many guys on here know MX officers and have conversations with them about about the dismal morale that their troops have stateside. Been on Facebook reading a new group called roll call, did not realize on how much the mental anguish of serving in a MX sq is now. My day we worked hard, played hard, got caught, disciplined,  but as long we got the job done our MX officers took care of us. What happened? In the 80's and 90's we never heard of guys committing suicide, do we not allow these guys to blow off steam? One mistake is a career ender? Towards the end of my career I tried to stay deployed so I wouldn't have to deal with my supervision stateside, not good for my family but great for my mental health and blood pressure. Do you guys notice it stepping to the jet or just say it's not my problem, Thank God? 

You can definitely see it in the faces of the guys working the jets.  I think it's a combination of not enough manning, not enough parts, and no real solutions to either.  We tell our maintainers that they are so critically manned that they can't cross-train or PCS...but there's no SRB for maintenance.  And we're solving that problem by shoving anyone with a high enough mechanical score into maintenance, regardless of the job they actually want.

Add to that the increasingly ludicrous demands placed by the Air Force on things like CBTs, volunteering, awards, additional training, and additional duties...and then pile on leadership that has forgotten how to say "no"...and you've got a recipe for working 12s every time a line cancels or the WG/CC gets a good idea fairy.

[SocialD]

3 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Just trying to get smarter here, how many guys on here know MX officers and have conversations with them about about the dismal morale that their troops have stateside. Been on Facebook reading a new group called roll call, did not realize on how much the mental anguish of serving in a MX sq is now.

 

A friend has been a deployed CEM for 2 months and has already had to send 3 airmen home for this.  It seems some of these kids just can't handle life and/or any amount of tough love.  In my enlisted maintainer days, a finger in the chest by a red-faced NCO was not an uncommon event.  However, they'd be buying you beers at the bar that night, you learned, got the mission done and moved on.  Now, that "transgression" will make some to lose their minds and cause them to "not be able to work with you anymore."  It's fucking weird.  

 

Quote

My day we worked hard, played hard, got caught, disciplined,  but as long we got the job done our MX officers took care of us. What happened? In the 80's and 90's we never heard of guys committing suicide, do we not allow these guys to blow off steam? One mistake is a career ender? Towards the end of my career I tried to stay deployed so I wouldn't have to deal with my supervision stateside, not good for my family but great for my mental health and blood pressure. Do you guys notice it stepping to the jet or just say it's not my problem, Thank God? 

 

Preach it brother!  Back in my young enlisted maintainer days, leaderships view was that if you're old enough to put on a uniform, you're old enough to drink.   End of trip parties were something that you didn't miss because they were so much fun.  We worked hard and partied harder...the camaraderie was amazing.  One particular TDY location accounts for a large portion of my most fond memories in the AF.  If you've never been to a TDY party at the "River Club," you're missing out.  If those walls could talk😳, but I digress... 

Contrast that with the fact that a few months ago, our MX leadership handed out paperwork (not the type that disappears at the end of the TDY) to a few maintainers for underage drinking.  They never left the hotel and weren't even causing problems so I'm not sure why it was even elevated or even a big deal.  Kids seem so scared of getting in trouble for bullshit stuff, that they don't even show up anymore, or they blast ASAP.  It's work hard, work harder and if you party, you better not step out of line.  Some trips are better than other, but it seems to be an increasing trend to the negative.

Edit:  A friend in a Guard Herk unit says their entire unit wasn't allowed to drink for the entire two weeks they were at the above mention CRTC!  Supposedly an AMC IG rule (back when we did ORIs) or some ridiculous shit like that.  Talk about a great way to piss off your people!

 

1 hour ago, dream big said:

Also, I can see a flying squadron commander applying the “debrief culture” to maintainers...ie, it’s okay to make mistakes.  That is how we learn, instead of crushing a dude for a minor mistake which is a cultural issue in many MX groups. 

 

This!  It's actually one of the reasons for tension between OPS and other sections on base.  They think we always just "get away" with stuff that would get them hammered.  We can't help that their leadership just chooses to give paperwork out for minor bullshit, while our leadership is much more big picture about this type of stuff.  

 

Quote

Anyways, I always try to converse with my maintainers on locals and loop them into the mission, and I treat my flying crew chiefs as part of the crew.  Most of the maintainers I know love their jobs.  They love turning wrenches and get great pleasure out of seeing the mission happen.  Seeing the 33 ship (largest C-130J formation) takeoff out of Dyess last month put a smile on every maintainer’s face.  Totally worth the weeks of planning we put into it. 

 

Last week, I told my crew chief to hang out and watch my takeoff because I was planning  an unrestricted climb right in front of the ramp.  When I got back, my young crew chief plugs in and is still pumped up about the unrestricted climb.  A bunch of the maintainers swing by as I'm walking off the ramp and gave me some high fives and thanked me for a morale boost....apparently the entire hanger knew lol.  Something so small and it seriously cost me about the same amount of fuel as a normal takeoff/climb-out.  These kids love seeing their hard work get the jets in the air, this is a small thing to occasionally reward them with something cool.  

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by SocialD

[Prosuper]

43 minutes ago, SocialD said:

This!  It's actually one of the reasons for tension between OPS and other sections on base.  They think we always just "get away" with stuff that would get them hammered.  We can't help that their leadership just chooses to give paperwork out for minor bullshit, while our leadership is much more big picture about this type of stuff.

This is what is driving MX sq's into the ground, are these officers so risk adverse that they will give no one the benefit of the doubt so hammer them. What a waste of people, you spend money getting them trained just to destroy them if they don't act like a robot. I wonder in the OP's world if a flying sq will ever get a non rated guy as a CC and treat pilots like cops or Crew Chiefs.  

[Blue]

25 minutes ago, Prosuper said:

This is what is driving MX sq's into the ground, are these officers so risk adverse that they will give no one the benefit of the doubt so hammer them. 

Mx Squadron culture and morale is a perennial topic on https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/   Toxic NCOs seems to be one of the more common threads, as opposed to O's.

 

[pbar]

Back in the Stone Age when I was at Dyess, it would really piss me off to see every summer AFROTC and Academy cadets get rides in the B-1 but most of our own maintainers never got a ride.  Ought to be a rule that nobody else gets a flight until at least all the crew chiefs have flown.  

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, pbar said:

Back in the Stone Age when I was at Dyess, it would really piss me off to see every summer AFROTC and Academy cadets get rides in the B-1 but most of our own maintainers never got a ride.  Ought to be a rule that nobody else gets a flight until at least all the crew chiefs have flown.  

Now we can't even produce enough sorties for B-1 aviators.

[Prosuper]

16 hours ago, Blue said:

Mx Squadron culture and morale is a perennial topic on https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/   Toxic NCOs seems to be one of the more common threads, as opposed to O's.

 

How do toxic senior E's get empowered? Who gives them a Senior Rater Endorsement? It's not from a old MSgt who just got told that all you do is your job and you deploy too much, I have never seen you at the Xmas party or a top 3 meeting. Most E-1 to E-6 MX troops never talk to their officers, only officers they actually talk to are ADC's or Op's guys. If a MX guy is talking to his CC it is in his blues signing for a Article 15 for missing a dental appt because he got stuck on the line producing a sortie, yes that happens.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Prosuper
content

[pawnman]

6 minutes ago, Prosuper said:

How do toxic senior E's get empowered? Who gives them a Senior Rater Endorsement? It's not from a old MSgt who just got told that all you do is your job and you deploy too much, I have never seen you at the Xmas party or a top 3 meeting. Most E-1 to E-6 MX troops never talk to their officers, only officers they actually talk to are ADC's or Op's guys. If a MX guy is talking to his CC it is in his blues signing for a Article 15 for missing a dental appt because he got stuck on the line producing a sortie, yes that happens.

 

I suspect that's exactly HOW they get empowered.  Tell the Bobs everything is sunshine and rainbows while grinding the folks who rarely, if ever, talk to the Bobs into the ground.

My last job was in an IG office.  Place the blame however you want...maybe it's the O's fault for not being in touch with their people, maybe the SNCOs fault for abusing their people...but the majority of complaints were young airmen/NCOs against SNCOs, and when we referred it to the unit commander, they rarely had any idea that it was even going on.  

[Boomer6]

I definitely think SNCOs are the issue in our mx squadron. They treat the airman like crap. Keeping a few hundred 18-20 year olds on a tight leash in a foreign country 6,000 miles from home is one thing, but their responses to minor mistakes are way out of proportion. They’re the ones pushing the OICs to hand out paperwork for “reasons”. You can say oh well the Os need to know better, but those Os started out in the sq as a 2d Lt with a NCO or SNCO mentoring/teaching them that this is how discipline is handled in a mx sq. Like a good Lt they listened/trusted the NCO/SCNOs telling them this because they know these ppl were doing the JOB while they were taking naps in kindergarten. It’s no wonder mx can’t keep ppl from leaving the first chance they get.

[Sprkt69]

5 hours ago, Prosuper said:

How do toxic senior E's get empowered? Who gives them a Senior Rater Endorsement? It's not from a old MSgt who just got told that all you do is your job and you deploy too much, I have never seen you at the Xmas party or a top 3 meeting. Most E-1 to E-6 MX troops never talk to their officers, only officers they actually talk to are ADC's or Op's guys. If a MX guy is talking to his CC it is in his blues signing for a Article 15 for missing a dental appt because he got stuck on the line producing a sortie, yes that happens.

 

In my opinion, the problem was from a combination of all of the above. My SNCO who retired as a crew chief said many of the problems started when MX got severely cut post BRAC. Much of the experience was gone and the work fell on the shoulders of the younger NCOs. This they did not train the young airmen like they were trained. As everyone progressed, the lost knowledge stayed lost and only got worse. The planes got older, parts more scarce and the demand increased. On top of that, Big Blue decided that there were too many specialties, like in avionics. 3 different specialties became one. It worked at the time because the guys had some cross training and experience. The new guys did not. Also, a crew chief is a crew chief and can work on any bird. So they pulled a lot of ‘excess’ crew chiefs and sent them to different jets. Ive seen a C-5 guy in charge of the flight line with A-10 and F-15 crew chiefs working on F-16s. You can imagine how well that was going. They’d work the crew something like 26+ days a month to try and get working aircraft CONUS.
 

When ops and Mx split, I think many of the Mx officers went full shoe clerk. Chasing green slides rather than actual success. Their drive for future rank through successful PowerPoint slides probably led to  many of the current toxic cultures in Mx. My old SNCO would smile about the old Ops+Mx days and tried to hide in my shop as long as he could.

[magnetfreezer]

The Navy model eliminates most MX officers; the AMU type MX is in the flying squadrons with a chief in charge. Aircrew are division officers (FLT/CC equivalent I believe) for admin of powerplants, airframes, etc. There are a few MX Os but at the equivalent of base backshop or depot. Would this be a better model to improve morale - airmen feel more empowered to approach officers and avoid the toxic O/SNCO situations ProSuper and Pawnman mentioned. Was in an AF squadron like this - small, maintenance handled by a SMSgt who reported to the SQ/DO.  Morale was high, and any issues that came up were handled appropriately (minor QA fail=recert the next day, not crush everyone). We made most of our dental appointments too.

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

I definitely think SNCOs are the issue in our mx squadron. They treat the airman like crap. Keeping a few hundred 18-20 year olds on a tight leash in a foreign country 6,000 miles from home is one thing, but their responses to minor mistakes are way out of proportion. They’re the ones pushing the OICs to hand out paperwork for “reasons”. You can say oh well the Os need to know better, but those Os started out in the sq as a 2d Lt with a NCO or SNCO mentoring/teaching them that this is how discipline is handled in a mx sq. Like a good Lt they listened/trusted the NCO/SCNOs telling them this because they know these ppl were doing the JOB while they were taking naps in kindergarten. It’s no wonder mx can’t keep ppl from leaving the first chance they get.

Had a non-aircrew friend who told me as a 2d Lt she firmly rejected the whole "listen to your SNCO's" advice because of shit like this. She realized at the end of the day she was the one in charge and SNCO's are notorious for holding grudges and also trying to exert command when they aren't commanders. Its not to say she didn't seek their advice but she was incredibly wise and taught me a few things about navigating the landscape of enlisted politics as an officer. 

[jonlbs]

The problem with MX is the same exact problem that is going on elsewhere in the AF. Only thing different is the job of MX blows (ask me how I know...) so people don't have a good time to justify the endless bullshit. But the real problem is what the AF values. And it promotes based on these values. It DOES NOT value mission. It values bullet writing, bullshit leadership courses, ass kissing tours, etc. Oh you took NCOPME bullshit 101, you are on track for the next level. Writing award packages filled with pure bullshit will get you promoted, not busting ass on the line. This promotes pieces of shit just like it does everywhere else in the AF and they are going to continue running it into the ground. Only way you make SNCO is buying into the bullshit they spew. 

Maybe it is only in my corner of the world but it is as clear as mud here.

Man I seem a little salty, but it is tough watching something with such pride and heritage turn into a f***ing dumpster fire.