What's wrong with the Air Force?

[WeatherManC130]

What makes the top -17 driver? Landing at the right airfield, with current TOLD, and the gear down?

You forgot not landing short!!!

[MooseAg03]

We only have to do that 90% of the time. Actually what's wrong with that community is they keep guys who cause ground fires and land gear up because of referral OPRs. Talk about perpetuating poor performance. I daydreamed about bending metal for about .69 seconds so they couldn't cross flow me.

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[Toro]

So you're just participating in the pissing contest before it becomes a pissing contest? One might call that starting, at least instigating, said pissing contest. But, I guess you stay cleaner when you piss first.

Please. Despite your break in attendance here, surely you've been around long enough to recognize when I valid topic will degenerate into mud slinging and name calling. My post was neither.

[Bender]

Please. Despite your break in attendance here, surely you've been around long enough to recognize when I valid topic will degenerate into mud slinging and name calling. My post was neither.

Oh, I do not disagree that the snowball was clearly in motion. I just was entertained with your "I'm going to put a stop to it", then proceeded to give it a good push faster. Despite my break in attendance here, surely you remember enough to know I couldn't give a shit either way. Measure dicks, don't measure dicks...it's of no consequence (to me or any other person on the planet), so shouldn't even take up space. If that was your actual point, I agree...well done, good point.

The humor I found in it was the reason for my post. You can deny the "mud slinging and name calling" aspect of your contribution all you'd like, since it's based on a "first hand example", but I think you're hard pressed to deny it wasn't contributory to the ensuing "pissing contest". You just have a side in it, that's cool. No one will fault you for having an opinion or sharing your experiences.

Man, I sure missed you Toro.

Bendy

[Day Man]

We only have to do that 90% of the time. Actually what's wrong with that community is they keep guys who cause ground fires and land gear up because of referral OPRs. Talk about perpetuating poor performance. I daydreamed about bending metal for about .69 seconds so they couldn't cross flow me.

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Not everyone.

[busdriver]

I like pissing contests...... I remember Rainman talking about "keystaffing" a Herc dude in the A-10 saying the guy was good enough that we'd take him into combat as a wingman. I also read George Marrett's book and he mentioned the heavy dudes being terrible wingman in the A-1. I also know I'd have to do a lot of chair flying to get used to not having a crew, and I can also say I have no fucking idea how any fighter except the A-10 visually acquires anything on the ground, but they do; I swear you assholes are keeping secrets from the rest of us, admit it, you have an easy button and you're not sharing. Fuckers.

[ClearedHot]

In other words...its not your fault you are not as good as us...Christ.

Edited March 5, 2014 by ClearedHot

[busdriver]

To be fair I did say fighter, not slow ass airplane that flies a turn around the target at a constant turn radius with multiple sensors and marking capabilities and something like 69 crew members all voting on if they shoot. Oh, I also train to actually pull the trigger and not as a contingency when multiple systems have failed but rather as a primary game plan. What is this "us" you speak of, I thought this was a MAF/CAF pissing contest, when did we let AFSOC into the bathroom?

BTW: This just got really fun, bring it old man.

[tac airlifter]

......(although the bomber community is a somewhat close relative) ......

All that said, thoughts on making bomber dudes into fighter guys and MAF guys to bombers for their backfill? This whole shortage/overage issue seems like a surmountable obstacle.

[pawnman]

If you go back and read about it, you'll find that there is not a lot of enthusiasm surrounding the previous crossflow program, mostly because of the results compared to the costs the last time it was done. I don't have all the numbers in front of me, but I was going through IFF/FTU at the time that previous wave of crossflows was going through the pipeline ('99 timeframe) and on into their first tours in ops squadrons.

The fact is, many crossflow pilots didn't end up performing as well as hoped at all stages of follow-on training (IFF. FTU, squadron MQT, etc). Some of them did great, of course (I know a couple that went on to perform well above average in the F-15E community), but statistically they did "worse" (in terms of pipeline training washouts and issues in operational units).

Most of the crossflow pilots that were my classmates and squadronmates were superb officers with fantastic officer performance records (and extremely good dudes to boot), but that didn't always continue into performance in the cockpit. It wasn't a "talent" issue with the crossflow pilots so much as it was an "experience" issue; one has to acknowledge, weather it is politically correct to or not, that there are significant cultural differences between the fighter community and other flying communities (although the bomber community is a somewhat close relative) that translate to differences in skills/airmanship in the pilots that come from those communities. What makes an aviator great in the MAF isn't the same thing that makes an aviator great in the CAF.

On the most basic level, the crossflow pilots, for the most part, were not used to being single-seat decisionmakers at much higher speeds, and much higher Gs, while hand-flying significantly more aggressive/dynamic maneuvers. Many times the core airmanship just wasn't operating well at 400 knots and pilots were just behind the jet (sound judgment, just not fast enough); sometimes a thousand hours on autopilot in the flight levels did not translate to having hands good enough for even basic admin formation work, much less more complex BFM or surface attack. This isn't unique to the crossflow folks, though; this is the same thing seen many times with ANG/Reserve fighter units that hire non-fighter guys and send them through IFF and fighter FTUs. There was a big wave of those guys about 8 or 9 years ago (mostly A-10 units at the time, but I don't remember why), and they had an unusually high washout rate, too, with some guys who did superb being the exception rather than the rule.

None the less, the end result was that there was higher attrition of the crossflow guys compared to straight pipeline students, and the fighter brass largely decided it wasn't that much of a benefit. Again, not that the crossflow pilots were idiots or anything (in fact, quite the opposite -- most of them had impressive OPRs/jobs/awards, seemed to have been superb pilots in their previous lives, and were really great dudes), but their previous flying time had given them habits and airmanship that did not dovetail into success in fighters.

All that being said, when Lorenz made the T-38 track at UPT "universally assignable" several years ago, one of the rationalizations that I heard discussed numerous times amongst AETC staff dudes was the future crossflow potential. Specifically, I heard a lot of folks talking about how F-35 was going to ramp up at some point in the mid-future, and the AF needed a T-38 trained pool of pilots who could quickly move over to train for that (remember, this is the same time period when the numbers of students going to fighters had been choked off to a mere trickle).

Remember that even in the 98/99 crossflow, only T-38 trained pilots were eligible. I don't think T-38 trained MAF pilots would be a "starting point"; I think they would be the only ones eligible.

Fair enough. Maybe we can start re-classifying some of those "fighter only" staff billets to let bomber and MAF guys take them. Point being, we have a large overage of one flavor of pilots, and a large shortage of another flavor of pilots...seems like we could use the pilots we have an overage of in some useful manner, rather than showing a couple hundred of them the door, while doubling the bonuses for the fighter guys in the hopes that they will stay.

[joe1234]

You cannot take a C-17 EP and train him in 1 year how to effectively employ a Mudhen. Likewise, I could take Hacker and he could *easily* be an IP in the C-17 within a year.

I'd say a lot of that also has to do with the fact that a decent crew can carry a weak AC. You can't rely on a WSO to just hold a fighter pilot's hand through every single sortie. Sending that cross flow guy on a 30 day trip around the world with a crew of newbs is a disaster waiting to happen.

Either way, this all sounds like a great justification to stop-loss 11F's indefinitely while offering VSP/TERA to 11M's.

[jazzdude]

You cannot take a C-17 EP and train him in 1 year how to effectively employ a Mudhen. Likewise, I could take Hacker and he could *easily* be an IP in the C-17 within a year.

Didn't most of the c-17 shenanigans involve cross flow guys, some of who were rushed to AC/IP?

[Warrior]

Didn't most of the c-17 shenanigans involve cross flow guys, some of who were rushed to AC/IP?

I know some of them did.

I'll throw gasoline on the pissing contest-how's that intra-amc cross flow working out? I don't know how the tanker guys view the herk/17 dudes but I know that the tanker dudes don't do so great in the herk. I mean, they do great enough that they don't die, get upgraded, get promoted and then get to be the wg/cc for a wing flying airplanes they know dick about. But they suck in the plane.

Generally speaking.

[Gravedigger]

All of you are retarded. Any CAP pilot could be trained to effectively employ Spec Ops fighters within a month.

[Butters]

So who is better? MAF pilots or CAF pilots?

[TarHeelPilot]

So who is better? MAF pilots or CAF pilots?

Airline pilots!

[Majestik Møøse]

...we have a large overage of one flavor of pilots, and a large shortage of another flavor of pilots...seems like we could use the pilots we have an overage of in some useful manner, rather than showing a couple hundred of them the door, while doubling the bonuses for the fighter guys in the hopes that they will stay.

This is the crux of our manning problems. There are plenty of creative solutions that could be tested immediately, but none of the guys who would actually be able to implement this are able/willing to do so. Start some experiments and see how they go. Start tomorrow.

[WAG]

What makes the top -17 driver? Landing at the right airfield, with current TOLD, and the gear down?

Don't get ahead of yourself. For starters, you need to at least ensure you don't suck at UPT so you're not left with the remains of the Herc/Tanker community.

[FlyinGrunt]

Well, if AFSOC's gonna enter the fray on this one, let's do this . . .

1. Caveat: I am a T-44 guy, all gunships since then. Got quite a bit of experience in the inter-gunship crossflow bit. But no fighters.

2. I second that a decent crew can carry a weak AC. I've also seen ACs who can almost be an instructor to an entire crew of 13 newbies, all while getting the mission done and having hands of gold.

3. The former can't fly fighters. The latter . . . very well might be able to. Which makes we wonder if this pipe dream might be able to help the 11F problem:

- Hold tryouts, more or less. T-38 requal/TX at base X, whereas every bomber/AFSOC/AMC gets a few slots to start.

- No "officership" considerations allowed. Candidates must have the balls to put their hands up for consideration, then IP/EPs in the MWS get copies of their FEFs/training folders and take a vote.

- Make it through 38s? IFF. Make it through that? RTU. Make it that far, and you get to be a wingman. And by "make it", I do not mean after 69 R-rides. I mean a strong performance.

- Given what Toro and others have said, surely the gradual attrition along the line would save a lot of cash while assuring a quality end product.

- CRITICAL: This can't be successful if we don't have a waiver to the normal FEB rules. Only the Robin Olds of the C-17, or the cockiest SOBs in the MAF would attempt such a gamble knowing they were going all-in with their wings on the table, and I don't think that would help the AF.

Like I said, I'm gunship guy. Please let me know where I'm going wrong here.

[BitteEinBit]

People's lives are on the line. We need to be smart about how we do this, and that starts with making the right quality cuts.

...and this is where the AF is missing the mark in my opinion.

[joe1234]

Ohh but wait....doesn't the same exact logic apply to pilots? What does the AF do with an IFF/FTU/MQT washouts? They go to heavies. But is the reverse true? If I wash out of C-5 training can I go to F-22 FTU? No. .....Sorry, but that means something. Let's face it, not everyone is cut out to be a fighter pilot. It's just a different skill set. So what. Why sugarcoat it? .....ohh wait, because this is the Air Force and we sugarcoat everything having to do with performance/ability?

We sugarcoat it because people tend to be extremely insecure about their relative status. It's the same way somewhat rich people are insecure about their incomes and envy the super rich, instead of being content with what they have. I'm sure there are enlisted guys who wish they were officers who wish they were aircrew who wish they were pilots who wish they were CAF pilots who wish they were fighter pilots who wish they were F-22 pilots who wish they were IP's who wish they were WIC grads.

I just really think it comes down to personality. Some people are content with simply living their own lives and don't care about the pecking order, and some people are insecure and obsessed with it (and similarly treat people they perceive to be below them like dirt). I truly do feel sorry for the latter.

[hindsight2020]

There's no fighter pilot shortage, never will. There's plenty of qualified heavy drivers who simply didn't get a shot (timing and luck). In the Navy this isn't blasphemy, in the Air Force it is. Who knows the fuck why.

[Azimuth]

I've seen two A-10 guys (one even hooked is INIT MSN checkride) and a F-16 guy do very poorly in the -135 FTU.

On the flip side I've seen a prior A-10 and Eagle driver do very well. All the T-38 grads we got a few years ago we're hit or miss. I think a lot of it obviously is your background/previous training, however a majority of it is the person trying to get better in their identified deficient areas.

I know some of them did.

I'll throw gasoline on the pissing contest-how's that intra-amc cross flow working out? I don't know how the tanker guys view the herk/17 dudes but I know that the tanker dudes don't do so great in the herk. I mean, they do great enough that they don't die, get upgraded, get promoted and then get to be the wg/cc for a wing flying airplanes they know dick about. But they suck in the plane.

Generally speaking.

He's not a tanker guy.

[Gravedigger]

The problem is how to determine who's in Group 1, especially because a lot of people in Group 3 really believe they're in Group 1.

Check out this motha fucka! Possibly the truest words ever posted to this forum. Second only to the whorish tendencies of BQZip's mom.

[Right Seat Driver]

I know some of them did.

I'll throw gasoline on the pissing contest-how's that intra-amc cross flow working out? I don't know how the tanker guys view the herk/17 dudes but I know that the tanker dudes don't do so great in the herk. I mean, they do great enough that they don't die, get upgraded, get promoted and then get to be the wg/cc for a wing flying airplanes they know dick about. But they suck in the plane.

Generally speaking.

The MAF doesn't value flying like they should (reference the post that states flying is the #18 priority on a Wing slide-show).

Most of the cross-flow guys are good dudes, but the problem is they show up to the unit as a new AC in their new MAF airframe, fly for awhile, and do an in-house IP upgrade. Their office jobs don't allow them to focus on the in-house IP upgrade. After they become IPs, the office doesn't let them fly enough to be proficient instructors.

With that being said, I am sick and tired of the heavy versus fighter argument...and the C-17 jokes are getting old. It doesn't matter what the fvck you fly, fly your damn jet and hack the mission.

Like Hoss said, "what happens to guys that wash out of a fighter FTU?" They go heavies. Get over it. Granted, some dudes may have had issues in UPT and that they are now crushing their current MWS, but overall the UPT system seems to work well. Timing and luck are definite players in what you drop out of UPT, but tracking -38s and graduating at the top of the class definitely increases your chances.

Now, I'll go back to flying my KC-135 auto-pilot off, into the sun driving directly towards my receiver while shark-finning the tail in IMC.