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ThreeHoler

DoD "ready" for DADT repeal

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- Are you also against females serving since their PT standards are different?

how can you justify lower PT standards for women? Im not saying women shouldn't serve but how is it fair to disqualify a dude who maybe just barely missed the PT standards and let a women pass with lower standards, shouldn't the content of their character and their skill set in their chosen position outweigh different PT standards? if anything the PT standards need to be like the fighter aircrew with things based on a common weight multiplier

i want to clarify im not being antagonistic, im just trying to honestly ask the question to foster discussion

Edited by dvlax40
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Thanks for not answering my questions...

But those who think that the majority should be bent to the will of the minority are not?

Who is being bent in what way?

How are you gonna solve the problem of accomodating a transgender individual in a military unit?

What's the problem?

their skill set in their chosen position outweigh different PT standards

I would agree.

Edited by day man

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how can you justify lower PT standards for women? Im not saying women shouldn't serve but how is it fair to disqualify a dude who maybe just barely missed the PT standards and let a women pass with lower standards, shouldn't the content of their character and their skill set in their chosen position outweigh different PT standards? if anything the PT standards need to be like the fighter aircrew with things based on a common weight multiplier

i want to clarify im not being antagonistic, im just trying to honestly ask the question to foster discussion

For fucks sake, not this again. The fitness assessment is not a test of operational capability but a veiled health determination more frequently used for force shaping and cost mitigation.

Good God, everybody loves to beat this dead horse.

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I'm not going to be put on the defensive "answering your questions."

Hey, you won or are winning.

You, and those like you, or following you, will have to figure out how to accommodate this .000X percentage.

Accommodate =

-dress and grooming standards

-hygiene and billeting requiremets

-dealing with the loss of capability should someone decide mid-tour to switch uniforms

-dealing with the inevitable friction that develops from such an integration - from counseling to UCMJ actions

And these issues are just off the top of my skull.

They may be non-issues to you in the interests of "inclusion" or "equality."

But some poor company commander, some squadron commander, some senior NCO sure as sh1t is going to have to devote a helluva lot of time in learning about all this, then executing it.

Never mind the actual mission of whatever unit.

Taking the time to deal with this tiny fraction of a percentage of the overall population has to take priority.

Because it will. Getting fired over this buffoonery will be a higher threat than not accomplishing the mission due to lack of attention on it or preparing for it.

Again, you win the argument. It's gonna happen.

Enjoy it.

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I'm not going to be put on the defensive "answering your questions."

Hey, you won or are winning.

You, and those like you, or following you, will have to figure out how to accommodate this .000X percentage.

Accommodate =

-dress and grooming standards

-hygiene and billeting requiremets

-dealing with the loss of capability should someone decide mid-tour to switch uniforms

-dealing with the inevitable friction that develops from such an integration - from counseling to UCMJ actions

And these issues are just off the top of my skull.

They may be non-issues to you in the interests of "inclusion" or "equality."

But some poor company commander, some squadron commander, some senior NCO sure as sh1t is going to have to devote a helluva lot of time in learning about all this, then executing it.

Never mind the actual mission of whatever unit.

Taking the time to deal with this tiny fraction of a percentage of the overall population has to take priority.

Because it will. Getting fired over this buffoonery will be a higher threat than not accomplishing the mission due to lack of attention on it or preparing for it.

Again, you win the argument. It's gonna happen.

Enjoy it.

Please don't justify your bigotry (sp) with dress and groomng standards. It cheapens a FEW OF the valid concerns you raise.

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Please don't justify your bigotry (sp) with dress and groomng standards. It cheapens a FEW OF the valid concerns you raise.

Why cant the pro-LGBT side of the discussion answer a question. I think its a legit question and all you have is "You're a bigot."

Before Brick walks away (rightly) in frustration, I'll repose the question.

"Chris" just joined the organization. You as the commander are charged with enforcing standards and discipline. What set of standards does this airman use? If Chris doesn't maintain standards, what is the message to the rest of the squadron?

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Good ol' First Amendment.

Allowing the words and ideas of even ones you don't like or agree with to be out in the world.

Interesting how those on the new "correct" side of the fence forget that little aspect of life.

Seems like only yesterday that your ideological group were on the other side and embraced the idea of diversity.

My bad...

As for "dress and grooming standards," what prevents someone with inappropriate plumbing who feels they are in the wrong body from wearing the uniform of the gender of their choice?

If none, then how much time and effort will have to be devoted to rewriting, retraining, and then enforcing these new standards?

And this is just one relatively minor area that will have to be addressed.

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I am not saying your point is not valid, that is why I said you have a few good points. The difficulty of the task at hand does not determine the correct choice. Yes, it will be difficult to implement standards, and address the problem at hand. Desegregation was also difficult but we eventually came to the conclusion that it was worth the effort. I am not trying to resort to hyperbole here but often times difficult things are the most important things to get right.

If your point is that it is not worth the effort-so be it-but your tone doesn't come across that way. I am lways happy to join an informed and healthy debate, and never claim to know it all, but if your concern is resource allocation or the "how" then perhaps you could frame it better.

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Why cant the pro-LGBT side of the discussion answer a question. I think its a legit question and all you have is "You're a bigot."

Before Brick walks away (rightly) in frustration, I'll repose the question.

"Chris" just joined the organization. You as the commander are charged with enforcing standards and discipline. What set of standards does this airman use? If Chris doesn't maintain standards, what is the message to the rest of the squadron?

"Hi sir/ma'am. My name is Chris. FYSA, I identify with X gender."

"Ok, Chris. Do your job, adhere to those standards, and let me know if anyone gives you shit. Welcome to the squadron."

Would you honestly tell your commander you are now identifying as a woman to take an easier PT test? GMAFB.

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"Hi sir/ma'am. My name is Chris. FYSA, I identify with X gender."

"Ok, Chris. Do your job, adhere to those standards, and let me know if anyone gives you shit. Welcome to the squadron."

I wish I lived in your world where everything was so black and white and there were never shades of gray.
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Would you honestly tell your commander you are now identifying as a woman to take an easier PT test? GMAFB.

...because people don't fake injuries to get out of a PT test/event that they know they're going to fail. Give people an out, and there are always people that will take it. Will it matter? Depends on what kind of a force we want, pretty simple. That can be argued by both sides, by the way.

I have no problem with people arguing the point on what the country should do with this issue based off their desires for 'equality' or our American values (even if I agree or disagree), but don't try to tell me that this change is needed to make the military operationally stronger/more efficient (cost/risk vs reward). If that is your argument, then there shouldn't be cutoff ages for UPT (I'm sure there are plenty of people in the mid 40's could make it through UPT), we shouldn't be kicking people out who continuously fail their PT test by only a minute/10 sit-ups, kicking people out of programs/the military who continuously fail academic tests by a few points, etc. Why does the AF require certain ASVAB scores/a HS diploma to serve?--I'm sure there are people who don't make the entrance criteria who would make great Airman. Why aren't we letting guys wear nail polish or earrings right now?--what does it hurt?

As for tellng the CC "Iidentify with gender X"...will this need to be confirmed by medical/psych personnel at all? Will people be able to one day say they are gender X and the next day tht they are gender Y? Will there be any repercussions if it is suspected that people might say this to have different PT standards (just one example)? Will the military now pay for active duty folks to get gender realignment (or whatever it is) surgery? Who will make the call on whether the surgery is warranted/approved? What if special prescriptions are needed for hormones, etc? What if Dave says he wants to start wearing earrings tomorrow and gives the reason that he's identifying with the female gender...does he have to get a wig or is he allowed to keep his high and tight, but can also have the ear rings?

Again man, it's cool if you support this idea/proposal based off your morals/ideology, just don't tell me that it's needed to make us a stronger fighting force or to make us more efficient. This is all about ideologues changing the culture of the country, and as more often than not, it starts on the large scale with the military since its done by fiat and not by the culture changing on its own. Is this a good thing--do the end justify the means? I oubt it, but i guess time will eventually tell.

Oh, and a horrible argument comparing this to desegregation (see two paragraphs above). I'm not aware of black Americans needing anything special to serve (hormones, different PT standards, surgery), other than for people to get over their bigotry. Learn to make a better argument if you want to convince people who are on the fence/think differently than you do. I'm all ears if you want to make that argument by the way.

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I am not saying your point is not valid, that is why I said you have a few good points. The difficulty of the task at hand does not determine the correct choice. Yes, it will be difficult to implement standards, and address the problem at hand. Desegregation was also difficult but we eventually came to the conclusion that it was worth the effort. I am not trying to resort to hyperbole here but often times difficult things are the most important things to get right.

If your point is that it is not worth the effort-so be it-but your tone doesn't come across that way. I am lways happy to join an informed and healthy debate, and never claim to know it all, but if your concern is resource allocation or the "how" then perhaps you could frame it better.

I am once again impressed by the unexpected links to knowledge that can occur here at Baseops.

In the above quote, I see both astrophysics and political doctrine being displayed.

Astrophysics in that, while I only attended public universities, I was sure that only celestial size bodies had the gravitas to make other things rotate around them.

Here I see just one poster demanding that the world revolve around him and any points to be made written in a manner and style he deems satisfactory.

Doctrinal in that not only will he help me better shape my argument - that I'm not arguing the point is beside the, er, point - but he will then qc it to make sure it fits into policially correct thinking. Is homework checker a paid gig or another volunteer thing like a mod?

That, my friends, is impressive.

What scores the hat trick for me is that he never ever addressed the simple, practical problem given.

Instead, more great words about "we decided it was worth the effort," not only, again, equating LGBT with race, but spewing out politically correct but meaningless drivel.

But a policy without thinking through the practical aspects is for the lesser folk to worry about, not the celestial mechanics.

I see a great future as an OSD spokesman, er, "person."

Maybe even one for the State Department.

Bravo (golf clap...).

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For ######s sake, not this again. The fitness assessment is not a test of operational capability but a veiled health determination more frequently used for force shaping and cost mitigation.

Good God, everybody loves to beat this dead horse.

noted, thats actually the best black and white answer ive gotten on to the purpose of the PT standards, but why thinly veil it at all?

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noted, thats actually the best black and white answer ive gotten on to the purpose of the PT standards, but why thinly veil it at all?

Aren't you applying for OTS or something?

You'll find that the organization you're trying to join is anything but transparent.

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Aren't you applying for OTS or something?

You'll find that the organization you're trying to join is anything but transparent.

true, i guess im just shocked that i didnt see it as a device to measure health vs occupational capability in the first place.

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Serious question: Since the gender lines have been blurred/removed why can’t I still have a female, either by choice or by chance as a roommate in the dorm? If they can assign a hetro person to live with a LGBT person who happens to biologically be the same gender but is also a cross dresser/transvestite/gay/butch fill in the blank (not that there’s anything wrong with those things) why can’t two hetro individuals of the opposite gender be roomies? I’d take A1C Yummypants or not-so-yummy, whom I may never touch, or even want to, over option “B” any day. Shit they do it at colleges all over the fvcking country in the spirit of “open mindedness” or some such crap.

And before the spears get thrown from the “enlightened” crowd, I don’t care what consenting adults do behind closed doors. I just wouldn’t want to be taking place only inches from where I bunk. Anymore than I would want a gear head rebuilding a V-8 in the room (and yes, I’ve seen THAT done).

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Dealing with suicide rates, hormone therapy, billeting, bathrooms, uniforms, etc. while trying to kill people and break their stuff. Good luck.

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...while trying to kill people and break their stuff.

That's because this has nothing to do with killing people and breaking their stuff. This has nothing to do with making the military more competent, more efficient, or a stronger fighting force. I'm sure there are a few bright/capable people who are 4'9" who could make it through pilot training and fly fighters if the DoD only made the necessary adjustments to the trainers/systems...

This is all about progressive ideology and politics. I'm not surprised, though I'm slightly surprised that it happened this soon. Then again, the President is working hard to change what he can in his last year+ of his presidency with regards to his progressive ideology and his legacy. I look forward to the upcoming training day briefings and/or CBT's addressing this new change when it occurs.

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Butthurt Christian pilot posts stuff on christianfighterpilot.com.

Some people find it offensive and complain to Gen Welsh.

Eglin Wg/CC gives the pilot an LOC.

Pilot writes an impressive rebuttal.

Original documents, with inconsistent redaction.  You can skim it pretty quickly; it's not as long a read as you'd think.

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Man, the whole saga is pretty disheartening from the standpoint of personal freedom.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

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And it looks like Tony Carr's recently coined "Welsh Doctrine," which maintains that military members have almost no right to freedom of speech on or off duty can trace it's origin to this issue.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

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