Day Man Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 or start writing smaller... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingOsh Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 How hard is it to finish your CCAF? It is one semester in college which is 100% paid for by the Air Force. It is not even as hard as getting a real associates degree which takes two years. If you can't finish your CCAF and you get STEP promoted it doesn't send a very good message to the junior AMN about the importance of getting an education. If it's so easy and a piece of cake to finish, then why do you think it matters so much? It's the same argument people make for requiring a masters. If it's so extremely important for officers to have a masters, why the fuck do they allow free online degrees? It either matters or it doesn't. Our Check-the-container mentality is a major contributing factor in the current state of our force. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest one Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) The Air Force pushes the need to get a CCAF to all new Airman. It is not a big deal but it is the fact that someone took the time to check a box that the Air Forces wants Airman to check. The Air Force wants to be able to say that 90% of their Airman have an Associates degree. It might be stupid but my point is, out of a Wing of thousands of people, why not pick someone who was concerned enough with their career to check that box. I am not saying to give it to a shitty NCO just because they have their CCAF, give it to a great NCO who finished their CCAF. The Wing can only STEP promote a few people. The Air Force also wants to say that 90% of their officers have Master's degree. We may not agree with it but that is what they want so I will suck it up and complete my graduate degree. They allow online degrees because it is almost impossible to complete a master's degree while stationed in certain places at a traditional school. Not all online degrees are simple to earn. This is especially true for online Master's programs from normal universities like George Washington University and the University of Michigan. Degrees from schools like that are very different than a degree from the University of Phoenix. Edited December 23, 2011 by one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Copy, you're against people being recognized soley on the basis of their job performance, and favor instead of whole person concept. Problem is, that route ALWAYS leads to awards for the guy who is ok at his job but has checked all the required boxes while the few who study and practice to be great at their jobs are overlooked. That is ALWAYS the outcome. Sometimes the rockstars get noticed, the few who get a degree from Harvard while also being superstars at their job. These guys are few. How about we send a message to our airmen that job performance counts? After all, what good is education unless it leads to individuals being better at their jobs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 How about we send a message to our airmen that job performance counts? After all, what good is education unless it leads to individuals being better at their jobs? Because it makes too much sense. "Leadership" will never go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest one Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) They have awards for job performance only but if you look at most awards the scoring matrix requires the whole person concept. The CCAF is an associates degree you earn which is directly related to their career field. Job performance should be reflected in OPRs/EPRs, not by quarter awards. I know it is different for officer promotions but a STEP can be given to an NCO for any reason a commander decides. You see real tools get them now and then. If it is your decision and you have two NCOs with comparable job performance and one has a CCAF and the other doesn't, who do you give the extra stripe? A STEP should only be given to people which are "rock stars" because they are suppose to be better than 1000s of their peers. EPRs and OPRs do not do a good job at giving a good evaluation of how well someone does their job. This is a completely different problem. The promotion process in the Air Force is fukced for the enlisted force in the first place. The army's system is much better. Edited December 24, 2011 by one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingOsh Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) why not pick someone who was concerned enough with their career to check that box. If this is really your perception and plan of attack then no amount of conversation is going to do any good. Attitudes like this are why we have such a fucked up system of promoting the Christmas party planner over the war fighter. so I will suck it I'm sure you'll go far. This is especially true for online Master's programs from normal universities like George Washington University and the University of Michigan. Degrees from schools like that are very different than a degree from the University of Phoenix. Your difficult masters checks the same container as everyone else's piece of cake masters. Your point may be true, but it's invalid in this argument. Job performance should be reflected in OPRs/EPRs, not by quarter awards. EPRs and OPRs do not do a good job at giving a good evaluation of how well someone does their job. Awesome. Edited December 24, 2011 by FallingOsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest one Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) You should show the Air Force how bullshit box checking is and not get a Master's. Not making rank will show them. I don't make the rules but I am smart enough to try and use them to my advantage. I plan on getting a decent online degree so I can check the box and learn something that will be useful when I get out of the Air Force. I don't write scoring matrix for awards, I am not the one who made it important to do SOS in residence, and I definitely didn't make it important for Captains to have a finished Master's degree from some bullshit online school. Just because I do not think those things are important in how I am going to perform my job on a daily basis, I know it is going have an impact on being promoted. Not directed at any one, just a general statement...No matter how good you think you are at your job, someone is out there who is just as good as you are but they're willing to play the Air Force's game to get ahead. Edited to add: EPRs and OPRs should be the main way to tell if someone is good at their job but it is not possible because of inflation. You can't tell who stands out or not. And by the way, I am also not responsible for inflating OPRs and EPRs for the entire Air Force. Just wanted to make sure we are all on the same page. Edited December 24, 2011 by one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 To be honest, I think this one is a good call. I don't believe that Enlisted folks need to have a Bachelors for promotion, but CCAF in my mind is a no brainer since it is AFSC related. A TSgt should have a CCAF degree complete. Still awesome that he was put in for a STEP though. Just goes to prove that the mission is second, looking good on paper is job #1! Not all online degrees are simple to earn. This is especially true for online Master's programs from normal universities like George Washington University and the University of Michigan. Degrees from schools like that are very different than a degree from the University of Phoenix. The Air Force doesn't care If this is really your perception and plan of attack then no amount of conversation is going to do any good. Attitudes like this are why we have such a fucked up system of promoting the Christmas party planner over the war fighter. complete shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingOsh Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 No matter how good you think you are at your job, someone is out there who is just as good as you are but they're willing to play the Air Force's game to get ahead. There's your disconnect right there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest one Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) So many people on this forum and in the Air Force in general always have things to say about a lot of the annoyances with promotions, OPRs/EPRs, and the stupid things like reflective belts. Some of you guys have to end up getting in leadership positions, becoming Squadron Commanders, Wing Commanders, or even getting into higher leadership positions. If you get there, change things. Even a Squadron Commander at a very small squadron can stop things like inflated EPRs and OPRs from happening. For some reason, you never see it happen. I am not there yet and won't be very many years but I will do all I can to fix things I believe are broken. Until then, I have to do what it takes to get a head. Like I already said, if you believe so strongly that a Master's degree isn't needed, don't get one. People are acting like it is not possible to look good on paper and do well at your job at the same time. It is possible to do both. It is not like you have to put mission a side to finish a CCAF or even a Master's for that matter. I think people love to use any excuse so they can to justify why they are not advancing in their career. Everyone knows what you have to do to get promoted but some choose not to do it. How can you blame anyone but yourself when you get passed over. It is not about how anyone feels about it, it is just the reality of the current situation. I hate it as much as the rest of you but if I want to be in a position to make changes 10 or 15 years down the road I need to play the game until I get there. I accept that many of you have probably been in a lot longer than me and I have spent my short five years in the Air Force in intelligence squadrons so maybe I am just more conditioned to dealing with this bullshit than any of you. I am sure I dealt with more bullshit like volunteering for squadron parties and taking on needless additional duties than anyone at a flying squadron. Edited December 24, 2011 by one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) I see the discussion has gone down this road again so I'll go ahead and do my quarterly rant in support. By the way, I have all my "Air Force game" boxes checked and still think it is BS. I don't feel smarter or more of a leader because I have a Masters. I actually feel like I wasted a lot of time getting a Masters that will be outdated when I eventually get out of the Air Force. Now for the rant: Until then, I have to do what it takes to get a head. That is part of the problem....doing "what it takes to get ahead" gets in the way of doing "what it takes to fix things"...that is why you don't see it happening. You make Major and think, "oh wow, I could make O-5"...then you make O-5 and think "oh, wow, I could make O-6" and so on and so on. You spend so much time checking the boxes and do the things that helped you get ahead that you forget (or don't care anymore) about changing the things you thought were wrong. And why should you? You're managing to "get ahead" by playing the "Air Force game" (not directed at anyone) It is not like you have to put mission a side to finish a CCAF or even a Master's for that matter. It is when people are taking leave and taking themselves off the flying schedule to finish that paper...it happens more often than you think. I think people love to use any excuse so they can to justify why they are not advancing in their career. How can you blame anyone but yourself when you get passed over. I have plenty of friends who have all the "Air Force Game" boxes checked and still don't know why they didn't get promoted. Do they really have themselves to blame? Maybe...they didn't distinguish themselves by planning enough Christmahannuqwanzika parties. But they do a hell of a job at their primary duties...but we all know that is only a fraction of what matters today. I plan on getting a decent online degree so I can check the box and learn something that will be useful when I get out of the Air Force. Be careful with getting your degree too early (online or not), because other than checking a box, a 15-year old degree (particularly a technical one) is pretty much worthless when you decide to use it for anything outside the Air Force (assuming you got it at year 5 and you do 20 years and retire). That is part of my problem with the Air Force "game" making you get a Masters as a young Capt. It benefits NO ONE in the long run. Eventually you're going to have to be good at your job because there is going to be a time in the near future where it will count. I know we have mostly high-quality well-rounded officers in our force, so I'm generalizing here, but the Air Force is force shaping the "slugs" who don't have their Masters (but are good at their jobs). We'll be left with a bunch of check-your-box Masters robots who are good enough at their jobs but focus more on doing what it takes to get promoted and less about the actual mission of the Air Force. Those people are a very small percentage of our officer force, but when you are trying to downsize the force and make those of us who are left do even more with less, those small percentages matter. With the criteria the Air Force is using to determine who stays and who goes, a lot more people are now in "self preservation" mode. Secretary Gates warned us of this type of careerism...and now the Air Force is forcing it on us. It is no longer what is good for the "company," but rather, how can I make sure I don't get RIFd. We'll be so small soon that everyone left will have a Masters, so you'll actually have to be good at your job to distinguish yourself (or plan more parties). Imagine that... Edited December 24, 2011 by BitteEinBit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hueypilot812 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I'll chime back in, since it was my NCO's situation that started the CCAF, etc discussion. First off, this dude won the "best" in his category not in the wing, but in the entire MAJCOM. He truly is a hard worker, puts in 12 hour days on a regular basis...he's our "go to" guy. For what it's worth, he's working on his CCAF (he's not a Tech as someone stated, he's a Staff that didn't make the cut for Tech last time around) and he's close to finishing. But all of you morons that put so much stock in his CCAF non-completion...he's got a FULL day, every day. He works hard...he teaches tobacco cessation classes. He volunteers on base ALL THE TIME. And yes, he's taking CCAF classes and getting it done, although slower than some kid who works 6 hours a day in some staff office. I really don't see how he has time for his family (married with two kids) but he hacks it. He adds more to our USAF than most of the ass-munches that get promoted do...and some of you (and our CMSgt) seem to be hung up on this ing CCAF "requirement" that's not a requirement for STEP promotion. More to my original point...why the hell is the wing command chief "approving" who gets STEP promoted? Why can't the officers be leaders and say "we're promoting this guy because we feel he deserves it...however, thanks for your input, Chief". It used to be that command chiefs were there to speak for the enlisted force to the commander. Now they've been elevated to some surrogate Vice Commander position...I've even seen cases where the CMSgt was in the approval chain for OFFICER decorations....WTF? It's getting out of hand, and it's getting that way because our leadership culture is allowing it to be that way. When I first entered the military, and E-9 was to be respected by all ranks because they did serve and they've managed to get to the top of the enlisted food chain. But they didn't have the power and fear that they have now. My last boss, a Lt Col, allowed a Chief to chew his ass in front of the entire office over something minor. Granted, we were doing something the wrong way...but it was a minor issue, and if it had been me, I would have pulled the chief aside and said "hey, you hammer people over customs and courtesies. Well...where the are your customs and courtesies? Last I checked I outrank you and you yelling at me is a major breach of this Holy Grail you always harp on..." Instead our O-5 stood there and said "sorry Chief". UFB. Anyways, time to get back to my deployed Christmas...y'all have a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. -Huey 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCO Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I am sure I dealt with more bullshit like volunteering for squadron parties and taking on needless additional duties than anyone at a flying squadron. ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap-10 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 One, A major flaw with your logic is that in order to make it to Lt Col so you can be a squadron commander so you will be in the position to make the changes you posted about, YOU HAVE TO PLAY THE REINDEER GAMES in order to make it to O-5 in the first place! Very rarely does a post make me want to physically hurt the poster...but one part of your post did: What the hell makes you think that your five years in Intel (of which the first 1.5 years was ASBC and Intel schools, so 3.5 years of actual "experience") make you think that, and I quote "so maybe I am just more conditioned to dealing with this bullshit than any of you. I am sure I dealt with more bullshit like volunteering for squadron parties and taking on needless additional duties than anyone at a flying squadron" Well my 15 years in the USAF with 12+ flying fighters makes me qualified to say this: "GO FUCK YOURSELF" Not sure what type of flying squadrons you deal with (for all i know you could be giving daily intel briefs at a Space Base and not even have an aircraft at your location), but I have worked directly with Intel bubba's at the squadron (CONUS and deployed), Wing Level, and at the CAOC level, so I feel confident that I can talk about your duties, but not convinced that you can talk about mine. Just my $.02....take it...leave it...I don't give a shit Cheers, Cap-10 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I am not saying to give it to a shitty NCO just because they have their CCAF, give it to a great NCO who finished their CCAF. The Wing can only STEP promote a few people. FIFY Not directed at any one, just a general statement...No matter how good you think you are at your job, someone is out there who is just as good as you are but they're willing to play the Air Force's game to get ahead. Not in my case. Until then, I have to do what it takes to get a head. Who said head? Everyone knows what you have to do to get promoted but some choose not to do it. How can you blame anyone but yourself when you get passed over. Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about. People don't know what it takes to get promoted. They guess. Many great people with all the right squares get passed over because of a wide variety of reasons completely beyond their control. Your SA is in the shitter on this one. I accept that many of you have probably been in a lot longer than me and I have spent my short five years in the Air Force in intelligence squadrons so maybe I am just more conditioned to dealing with this bullshit than any of you. I am sure I dealt with more bullshit like volunteering for squadron parties and taking on needless additional duties than anyone at a flying squadron. Again, SA in the shitter. Read what you just wrote. You say you accept you lack experience and perspective and dismount with an "I am sure" comment about something you just admitted you have zero SA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) When I first entered the military, and E-9 was to be respected by all ranks because they did serve and they've managed to get to the top of the enlisted food chain. But they didn't have the power and fear that they have now. My last boss, a Lt Col, allowed a Chief to chew his ass in front of the entire office over something minor. Granted, we were doing something the wrong way...but it was a minor issue, and if it had been me, I would have pulled the chief aside and said "hey, you hammer people over customs and courtesies. Well...where the fuck are your customs and courtesies? Last I checked I outrank you and you yelling at me is a major breach of this Holy Grail you always harp on..." Instead our O-5 stood there and said "sorry Chief". UFB. There is the problem, Air Force-wide. This, the "Leadership at the Died," and several otherthreads are all symptoms of the disease. "Commanders" are abdicating their responsibilities and letting, hell being grateful, for someone willing to be the bad guy. Damned if I EVER let a senior enlisted talk to me that way, in public. I had no problem whatsoever if that same individual were to take me aside and tell me I'm fcking it up. The reverse is true, I would not let anyone bust my senior guy in public. Officer, YOUR leaders, aren't willing to be a hammer. The leadership vacuum is being filled by E-9s and it sure seems like a lot of those "commanders" are grateful that someone else will be seen to be a d1ck because the "commander" lacks the stones. Push back. Respectfully, but strongly. It may cost you that school slot, that upgrade, #1 strat, but one day, you will take the uniform off and Big Blue will not care about you or even remember you. But you will have to look yourself in the mirror every day. Be willing to explain to your DO or CC why you didn't let NCOzilla act that way towards you in public. Tell your boss you did what you thought was right according to UCMJ/AFIs/customs and courtesies, and expect/hope he'll do what's right for you as you both head to the wing commander's office. Some will man up, some won't. And, maybe, just maybe, you showed that Lt or that SrA that saw the officer/NCO interaction a way to act as they progress. Maybe, just maybe, you can help turn the tide back to a military organization. Technique only and results will vary hugely. My location block shows the result for me but I'm content. And I have dinner/go drinking with my former NCOIC when I'm in his town or he in mine. Edited December 24, 2011 by brickhistory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hueypilot812 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 My location block shows the result for me but I'm content. And I have dinner/go drinking with my former NCOIC when I'm in his town or he in mine. It's only mediocre if you believe it to be. Who gives a if you retired as a Captain, Major, Lt Colonel or full bird? The facts are you probably did way more cool shit than 95% of the rest of our lazy-ass American population. But I can't blame you for having that mindset, because Big Blue propagates it. One of the reasons why I'm going to the ARC is because I'm tired of the senior leadership and those "golden children" looking down their noses at bros like me that are content with doing what's best for me and my family...and ultimately what makes me happy. My last boss, who's now a Sq/CC, had the attitude that if I didn't want to make O-6 at least, I was wasting his time and the US Air Force's time. That's bullshit. Makes me think of the 'ol "To Be or To Do" speech in the Col John Boyd book... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 But I can't blame you for having that mindset, because Big Blue propagates it. Rather missed my point, but ok... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest one Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) What the hell makes you think that your five years in Intel make you think that, and I quote "so maybe I am just more conditioned to dealing with this bullshit than any of you. I am sure I dealt with more bullshit like volunteering for squadron parties and taking on needless additional duties than anyone at a flying squadron" Well my 15 years in the USAF with 12+ flying fighters makes me qualified to say this: "GO ###### YOURSELF" I think people misunderstood what I wrote above and understandably so. When I said dealing with bullshit it meant things like volunteering and pointless additional duties. I was just saying I am very green in the Air Force and admitting that most off you probably have a lot more experience and insights on things related to this topic. I was also just saying that the cultures between an intel squadron and a flying squadron are very different. I can't say for sure because I have only been at intel squadrons, I just really hope it is different. I can't imagine it being worse about things like volunteering and pointless additional duties. Everyone on the enlisted side is literally told you are expected to volunteer for the three squadron functions/fund raisers per quarter. I really hope it is not this bad at a flying squadron. A lot of you have great points and I will think about them as I learn more. Full disclosure, I shouldn't have been posting by my third post. You can see how I gradually got drunker throughout the night from some of my posts. I shouldn't have any comments about getting promoted or other things I don't really know about. I am a SSgt that heads out to OTS in a couple months, so all I should be worried about is how to get "promoted" to 2LT. Then, all I should worry about is finishing training. Edited December 24, 2011 by one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Good luck at OTS. That's probably really tough to get into nowadays with the personnel spigot nearly turned off. That said, take your experience and teach both the enlisted that will work for you and the other Lts, and as you progress, the other younger officers how to lead. Practice what you preach. Be willing to take the standing up in front of your boss if one of your people takes a justified stand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest one Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) Thanks. I really wanted to do ROTC but I decided to enlist. At first I had regrets but now I am happy about the decision because I am commissioning the same time I would have anyway. I really hope what I learned on the enlisted side will help me do my job better. Being a leader is the reason why I want to be an officer. I am going to love being a CSO and I am going to try to put in for UPT but I want to stay in for thirty years to lead. Edited December 24, 2011 by one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreasySideUp Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) Being a leader is the reason why I want to be an officer. I am going to love being a CSO and I am going to try to put in for UPT but I want to stay in for thirty years to lead. I want to stay in 30 years to kill people and break their toys. I want to take the fight to the shores of our enemies so they stay off mine. I want to protect our national intrests both domestically and abroad. If I lead a package to accomplish goals to that end, that is fine, but leadership is not the target. Edited December 24, 2011 by GreasySideUp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest one Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) Yeah, I want to lead people that...kill people and break their toys. I want lead people to take the fight to the shores of our enemies so they stay off mine. I want lead people to protect our national interests both domestically and abroad. Is that wrong? someone has to lead. Do you think that you will be doing much of that personally as 0-6 with 30 years in? Not being a smart ass, that is a real question. How many full birds fly missions in Afghanistan? I don't hear about it much so I just assume the captains and majors are the ones doing it most of the time. Edit to add: I want to excel as a CSO and then possibly a pilot operationally but I want to stay in for thirty to lead. Edited December 24, 2011 by one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I want to stay in 30 years to kill people and break their toys. I want to take the fight to the shores of our enemies so they stay off mine. I want to protect our national intrests both domestically and abroad. If I lead a package to accomplish goals to that end, that is fine, but leadership is not the target. Best quote I've heard about all this stuff so far: "Look at your paycheck. How much do they pay you to be an officer? Now, how much do they pay you to be a pilot?" Should give everyone around here a real quick "craniums-up" about what our jobs are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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