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I was selected to fly the Bone from Class 04-04. I'm headed to Dyess at the end of March with a 5 Apr 04 RTU date. The 28BS will send you a sponsor package with a lot of relevant information. Dyess seems like a very livable place. Form the Bone dudes I've spoken to they really enjoyed flying it and I'm pretty excited to get down here. One former Bone WSO gave me a -1 and a 3-3...pretty extensive as far as sytems go. It sure isn't a simple T-38 anymore! From my bro's who are there right now, there's plenty of time to study the new information so don't waste anytime trying to "get ahead" prior to reporting to the 28BS. I hope this helps!

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I ended up in Abilene on a T-1 XC last week. From what little I saw in my 18 hours on the ground, they had an Outback Steakhouse and a Buffalo Wild Wings, so how bad can it be? Enid pales in comparison...

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Guest Coma@ENJJPT

Thanks dude for the intel. Any details that you know on RTU like the length (STS) or such? Anything would be great.

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Coma,

I'm currently casual here at the 28 BS. I don't know a lot about the academics phase, but overall the course is 5-6 months. Flight phase is 13-14 sorties. Usually, you have a primary and backup instructor and are paired with one WSO stud for most of your sorties. Other than that, if you have more ?'s I can ask around.

Dan

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Guest ralph

I did a search but there wasn't any new info. What is the manning situation like in the Bone now? Are Co's flying more then once or twice a month? Also are they still deploying to Guam and the Desert for 4 months?

[ 02. May 2006, 05:40: Message edited by: Toro ]

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Guest bone dude

ralph, not too many of the bone crowd hang out here to be honest... and i have only become a casual visitor to this forum from time to time.

i'm not gonna lie to ya it is tough for the brand new copilots to get hours and the FTU pipeline is backed up, but a lot of this has a good reason: the bone is out there doing a great deal of the real world work. consequently, you may also expect as a new dude to be out in combat while your compadres from 38s are generally chilling in garrison. please see my final post in 18 apr 06, topic: "Newspaper: Analysts call Raptor a failure Pages: 1 2" you will be out there doing the J.O.B. you are the show.

putting things into perspective, our sortie production is briefed all the way up, while when a viper takes off it is one of the multitudes. (not a knock on any single person in the CAF; without the multitudes of small pointy and fast jets, where would we be?) because after all, the bone's a flying supersonic weapon system of mass destruction. when one takes off, the global community takes quiet notice--no joke.

[ 23. April 2006, 22:57: Message edited by: bone dude ]

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Guest ralph

So FAIPS are not going to become AC's right away? And if they are so overmanned why do they keep droping them?

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Guest KoolKat

FAIPs = ACs/IPs...after PIT.

Who said FAIPs were overmanned?

BENDY

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Guest bone dude

is there confusion between being an AC in a white jet vs. an AC in a B-1? two different things.

now i'm confused. oh ok. i don't know why they keep dropping B-1s. that's an AFPC question. i've heard rumors though that they're cutting the pipeline into the FTU. who knows...

[ 23. April 2006, 23:09: Message edited by: bone dude ]

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Guest KoolKat

Granted the guy with the "a" code in a 37 or 6 does a much different job than a guy with the code in a 10 or 130...

But responsible is being responsible.

What's your "different things?"

BENDY

EDIT: IMHO, being a FAIP is alot to ask of a young pilot. Most do it extremely well, but it is not an easy task...

[ 23. April 2006, 23:15: Message edited by: Bender ]

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Guest Rainman A-10

Am I missing something here?

Seems pretty clear to me...don't go to the B-1.

Think about what you are asking to do for a second.

1. The pipeline is backed up.

2. 60 hours a year if you're not deployed.

3. "Supersonic weapon of mass destruction" straight and level milling around at 30K puking JDAMs and never seeing them hit combat sorties.

4. It's ok to go to your Major's board as a Co-Pilot.

5. Things are "horrible" until after your UAV or ALO gig.

That just doesn't sound like fun at all. Does it?

Run. Serpentine.

Please, tell me if I'm missing something here.

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Guest ralph

I didn't mean to confuse anybody. If you go to the Bone after your FAIP tour your go to AC school correct? And if your an AC your flying 3-4 times a week?

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It depends a little on who you are talking to. Now, I am not getting hundreds of hours or flying twice to three times a week, but until a month ago I made RAP every month since MQT and I completed our MQT program within the alloted time. The only reason I am going to hit recert this month is that my wife had a baby and I had my wisdom teeth out two weeks later. So it was nearly unavoidable. Not to say it doesn't happen (going recert, etc), but you typically are scheduled for one sortie per week with the average sortie being about 3.5 hrs. Now, we have had some bad luck with weather and in February maintenance killed us, but maintenance is getting better as is the weather.

As to the AC question-

Two things

1-They are changing the designation and therefore the training at IQC for all pilots.

From our OGV -

"The universal pilot will eliminate “co-pilots” and all UPT grads will be “pilots.” Here in the B-1 community we will have those pilots that are deemed Aircraft Commanders and those that aren’t."

2-Those that are FAIPs currently go through IQC (I had a couple of FAIPs in my IQC class) like the Co-pilots and then based on their performance are either given an AC checkride (biggest difference is requirement to actually be proficient in AR and overall expectations are higher in SA and decision making) or Co-pilot check. Both FAIPs in my class came out as AC's.

Finally, as to deployments. We are deploying alot as has been mentioned. Last year our squadron was in Guam for four months (not a combat deployment unfortunately :( ) and we are fragged for another combat deployment before too long. So you can plan that as a B-1 guy you will probably deploy every year for 4(+/-2) months straight. There are only three squadrons and the JFAC pretty much always wants B-Ones so the math is pretty simple (even I can do it). Besides Guam, we go to the standard island and have been to other places closer to the fight in the past.

Sorry this post is long(STS).

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Guest ralph

So in the future will FAIPS become AC's after they elimanate the term Co-pilot? Or it will be based on performance. And how long does it take to upgrade to IP. If someone is only flying once a week isn't that more then 60 hrs a year? And why do bombers deploy to Guam?

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I am not sure of all the implications to the universal pilot concept; however, I would expect FAIPs to finish IQC as AC's as they currently do. 6.2.

Pilot Upgrade Program (PUP). This program establishes minimum guidelines for upgrade to Aircraft

Commander (AC).

6.2.1. Program Entry. Requirements are:

6.2.1.1. Nominated by the unit commander.

6.2.1.2. Current and qualified pilot.

6.2.1.3. One of the following flying hour requirements:

6.2.1.3.1. 350 post FTU B-1 hours, and 80 RAP/contingency sorties.

6.2.1.3.2. 750 total hours, 200 post FTU B-1 hours, and 40 RAP/contingency sorties.

6.2.2. Ground Training. Upgrading pilot must satisfactorily complete the following unit developed

blocks of instruction with an IP prior to certification as an AC:

6.2.2.1. Crew leadership responsibilities.

6.2.2.2. Associated directives review.

6.2.2.3. Situational Emergency Procedures Training (SEPT) review.

6.2.2.4. Monitoring copilot activity, including air refueling, low altitude, and pattern operations.

6.2.3. Flying Training. Upgrading pilot must plan, brief, fly, and debrief a minimum of one day and

one night sortie with an IP and demonstrate proficiency in air refueling procedures, which will include

auto-pilot on and off refueling, and monitoring copilot air refueling. SQ/CCs may at their discretion

require additional flight events performed to proficiency. File grade sheets and training accomplishment

reports (TARs) in the individual’s training folder.

6.3. Flight Lead Upgrade Program (FLUG). This program establishes the minimum guidelines for

those aircraft commanders identified by the SQ/CC to upgrade to Flight Lead (FL). FL training should

place appropriate emphasis on formation tactical employment.

6.3.1. Entry Requirements. The minimum flying experience required prior to entering FL upgrade

training is six months as a B-1 aircraft commander.

6.3.2. Ground training. Academic training will be locally developed and will include but is not limited

to:

48 AFI11-2B-1V1 4 JUNE 2004

6.3.2.1. FL responsibilities - FL/wingman relationship, FL/ML relationship, unit training objectives.

6.3.2.2. Mission preparation - mission objectives, Desired Learning Objectives (DLOs), wingman

requirements and responsibilities, currencies, capabilities, delegation of mission planning duties,

tactics, attack plan, and briefing preparation.

6.3.2.3. Conduct of flight briefings and debriefings - objectives, DLOs, lessons learned, use of

briefing guides and audiovisual aids, flight member involvement, briefing techniques, and

debriefing/questioning techniques.

6.3.2.4. Conduct of missions - control of flight, flight discipline, emergency procedures, training

rules, and responsibilities to SQ/CC.

6.3.3. Flying training. Training will be conducted in accordance with a program approved by the SQ/

CC. Missions may be flown in any order. The program outlined below provides a basic starting point

and may be modified by squadron commanders based on unit needs and/or upgrade’s previous experience,

qualifications, and documented performance. SQ/CCs will determine which sorties are required

based on a review of previous experience and may certify a flight lead with appropriate restrictions

based on training not accomplished (i.e. no AR, etc.). Two formation departures, a day and night formation

aerial refueling, and a formation recovery will be accomplished as a flight lead during the program.

6.3.3.1. FLUG-1, Surface Attack Tactics (SAT). Mission Objectives: Practice leading and controlling

a 2-ship tactics mission to a tactical range/working area in a medium threat scenario. Specific

Mission Tasks: Briefing, formation departure, tactical ingress (low altitude), medium threat

target area tactics (emphasizing flight management), tactical egress, weapons employment procedures/

techniques, AR procedures, and mission reconstruction and debriefing.

6.3.3.2. FLUG-2, Night Surface Attack (NSA). Mission Objectives: Practice leading and controlling

a 2-ship night weapons delivery mission. Specific Mission Tasks: Briefing, formation departure,

night range operations, weapons delivery patterns, night AR, and mission reconstruction and

debriefing.

6.3.3.3. FLUG-3, Commander’s Certification, 2-ship FL. Mission Objectives: Certification (by

SQ/CC or designated representative) of flight lead abilities in a tactical mission scenario based on

squadron tasking. Specific Mission Tasks: Briefing, mission accomplishment, flight management

and control, and mission reconstruction and debriefing.

After that to upgrade to IP the pre-reqs are part of the FTU FIC syllabus that I do not have easy access to. I think it takes about 6 months as a FL to upgrade to IP.

So,

1-350 post FTU hours

If you fly 4 times a month for 3.5 hours a sortie you get 168 hrs in a year without deploying. If you deploy and average one 15 hour sortie per week for four months it adds up MUCH faster. Generally after 2 1/2 years you will be in the neighborhood of 350 hours. I arrived the end of May last year and I have ~100 post FTU hrs starting May this year; however, it takes about 2 months to really start flying so that is in line.

2-80 RAP sorties

This can be the limfac for guys that deploy and rack up big hours. It may take three years to get 80 RAP sorties but it ends up being about at 2 1/2 years.

3-6 months as an AC to upgrade to FL

Both PUP and FLUG are squadron programs but they have limited entry so just because you have the requirements doesn't always ensure that you immediately start

4-About 6 months as a FL to upgrade to IP.

Total time is about 4 years, maybe a little longer or shorter, to complete the IP upgrade if you get the chance to stay that long before getting an Alpha tour. Most guys do not upgrade to FL before going to an Alpha, not everyone upgrades to AC before going to an Alpha. Only a very few stay and upgrade to IP. Most of those end up at weapon school.

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Guest bone dude

rainman et al:

yes, the pipeline may be backed up, and hours perhaps slim in a brand new aviator's career, and you find yourself dodging ALFA bills at every turn, but maybe i've just been luckier than others. here are some counter-points

1. i have never seen a major as a copilot, and the only senior caption copilot i evers saw was late rated. currently, people upgrade to AC within their first 2 years as a captain.

2. one of my most memorable sorties in the AOR included watching some hogs drop ordnance from just 2k feet below us... from high altitude... so what gives with the knock on JDAM? We move mountains with those loadouts and keep our boys alive. i guess we need to make a JDAM version of the AMRAAM song because no one sees those hit targets either.

3. yes we can watch our ordnance hit the deck when in 180* bank (nice mushroom clouds). by the way, do you realize how big a flash a JDAM makes in the night sky even if you're NOT looking? drop 16,000 pounds at once and you don't even need to have your eyes *open* to see it.

4. we fly low mountainous, below terrain level, at an average of "ludicrous speed" day or night on a majority of our daily training sorties... the bone is a specialized low-level aircraft that has only recently in its history flexed to include the high-altitude mission with joint standoff weapons. gotta love the standard .9M climbing pop to the nose high recovery and then release. other bone drivers: how many times have you guys nearly gone super in those climbs when first learning in the schoolhouse??? i'm climbing too fast!!!: i need boards--no wait--pitch up more--no wait--ahhh, IP has the throttles...

6. you'll see us in the mist-ridden mountain passes of the most inaccessable places in the AOR that NO ONE else can fly through

5. we play DACT with the eagles and vipers whenever the schedule allows... it's great seeing a viper weave through the desert floor of the NTTR off your wing (knowing he's pissing away all his gas trying to keep up)

6. The bone's a kick ass platform and even a single aircraft influences the politics of the world. Just wait for the reaction when you emergency divert and observe how nervous the host country gets.

7. and when the red flag war gets cancelled due to weather, we'll still take off, fly the mission in our two ship and drop our ordnance. ops tested, air boss approved.

8. you ARE the show. reference final post on 18 apr 06 in "Newspaper: Analysts call Raptor a failure Pages: 1 2"

9. airshows rock. people love the bone. no so-to-speaks here. after all, how many countries in the world have bombers? think about it.

EDIT: 10. because when the russians are in town all you can do is help point them in the direction of the mall to buy blue jeans and porn. after all, they just CNX-d your sortie due to START inspections and what the hell else have you got to do?

EDIT: 11. because seeing a tactically maneuvering bone is a beautiful thing. only ourselves and the occasional fighter drivers actually see it in real life. it's not like we're allowed to 360-roll at demonstrations any more, though it still happens just enough to keep the folklore alive. the occasional yo-yos and barrel roll rejoins still impress me. but i'll never forget the blue air call: "holy, the bone's 180-out in a sliceback" (with mk-84s going off underneath)

and as a final point, don't base all your opinions off of the horror stories of a copilot who's on the way out of a small community by way of a guard slot. we each have to do what we gotta do, but our squadron also had a dude go guard due to his wife's situation, and he didn't exactly fly much once his vector was headed elsewhere.

let this be the final debrief focus point: timing can sometimes be everything. your squadron make-up, your deployments, your training opportunities, will always be influenced by the timing of MANY factors. that being said, always strive to be the best to offset this variable that will invariably work both for you and against you throughout your aviation career. choose your weapon wisely... and then rage.

[ 24. April 2006, 21:12: Message edited by: bone dude ]

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JTTP 3-09

CAS is air action by fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft against hostile targets that are in

close proximity to friendly forces and that require detailed integration of each air mission with the fire and movement of those forces.

CAS can be conducted at any place and time friendly forces are in close proximity to enemy forces.

The word “close” does not imply a specific distance; rather, it is situational. The requirement for detailed integration because of proximity, fires, or movement is the determining factor. At times, CAS may be the best means to exploit tactical opportunities in the offense or defense. CAS provides fires in offensive and defensive operations to destroy,

disrupt, suppress, fix, harass, neutralize, or delay enemy forces.

d. CAS may be used to mass the effects of combat power, in order to exploit opportunities in the offense and defense. The impact of effectively executed CAS in modern warfare draws credence from one of Napoleon’s maxims, “XCII. In battle as in a siege, skill consists in converging a mass of fire upon a single point; when the fight is on he that has the skill to bring a sudden, unexpected concentration of artillery to bear upon a point is sure to win.”

Each Service organizes, trains, and equips to employ CAS within its roles as part of the joint force. As a result, a variety of aircraft are capable of performing CAS. The joint force commander (JFC) and his staff must be capable of integrating all CAS capabilities into the operation plan (OPLAN).

So when we are talking to JTACs coordinating for releases of JDAM during a TIC where we have to get commanders initials due to the good guys being "danger close" to the bad guys, that isn't CAS?

And no, I'm not. How do you think we do CAS danger close through an IFR deck if we don't use the radar to derive coordinates?

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Guest ILikeBoobies
Originally posted by bone dude:

it is a CAS machine.

Oh, and having been a B-1 WSO, I reserve the right to say it's not a CAS machine. TST machine, definately. But without regard to your posted defination of CAS, to be truly effective, you have to be able to see the tgts and make the determination whether to drop or not, and be able to turn around and reemploy in a short time. While the Bone carries a shit-ton of JDAMS, and will eventually have a pod, it still can't deploy ordinance as fast as an A-10. Hell, a JDAM TOF from around 27K is about 70 seconds, give or take. In that time, an A-10 could strafe, turn around, and strafe again, in a pinch.

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Block E allows us to pump coordinates from the radar to a JDAM directly. If the guy on the ground has really good coords and the radar picture jives with what he is telling us we may release on his coords. Otherwise, the initial coords hopefully get us in the neighborhood with the radar and then the OSO aims on the target as directed through the talk-on.

37th has not deployed to combat with block-E but even in block D guys would use conversions and flacon view to get coords using the OAS picture that were typed in as a JDAM target. We have released in combat that way, to include TIC.

I don't know if the 9th has used block-E capes in combat or not for this specific question.

I know that this is the way we train and plan to employ in combat the next time we get the chance. We already are using this cape with JTACs in LFEs.

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Hoser,

Convoy Support, not the best use of the B-1. But...

Yes (not 60 to 1 but the lat/long to feet to meters conversion) or an offset function of the OAS (aim at something tell the system to hit 200m N).

And imagine if your radar could give you a picture of your target and target area instead of a blip. We don't need mulitiple sensors because our radar can pick out individual vehicles, hills, roads, posts, buildings and using the JTAC description we can target on the "third building from the left" or the "northernmost vehicle in a convoy" and then confirm that is the target by identifying its surrounding details things like the "third building from the left that is L- or X-shaped that is located next to a north-south running road across from an open field with a single vehicle in it."

And can't you guys BVR based on an AWACS declaration?

Edited for clarity

[ 25. April 2006, 19:07: Message edited by: Dewey...BoneDriver ]

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Guest Hoser
Originally posted by Dewey...BoneDriver:

And imagine if your radar could give you a picture of your target and target area instead of a blip. We don't need mulitiple sensors because our radar can pick out individual vehicles, hills, roads, posts, buildings and using the JTAC description we can target on the "third building from the left" or the "northernmost vehicle in a convoy" and then confirm that is the target by identifying its surrounding details things like the "third building from the left that is L- or X-shaped that is located next to a north-south running road across from an open field with a single vehicle in it."

Our radar can take the "picture" too. We start out in RBM, then using RSI (expected radar return, location of offsets, etc), we (and by we I mean the WSO) will command an HRM.

We use the same confirmers (L shaped building N of a 4 way intersection) when using the radar, but I dobut that would be the only confirmer allowed. We train to "kill via the radar" all the time, then use the pod to confirm your radar des. We didn't carry JDAM during my last AEF deployement, so I can't speak for the ROE for dropping JDAM thru the weather.

The F-15E can also map and transfer coord's to a JDAM. I've done it and it works like a champ.

Originally posted by Dewey...BoneDriver:

And can't you guys BVR based on an AWACS declaration?

Ah yes, the Viper Driver's favorite word, DECLARE. Again, ROE specific. I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be just as simple as a declare from AWACS, and I know that I personally would be hesitant if I was getting conflicting information (PAINTS) via by on-board sensors against the AWACS' HOSTILE dec.

Hoser

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Guest Rainman A-10

OK, everybody check blocks...lemme see if I can get a quick but of inflight debrief/instruction in here before we set up the next attack.

FWIW, here's my overall observation:

Some day, the B-1 guys will be comfortable in their own skin. Until then, they will try too hard. This has been happening since TAC ate SAC and it has been amplified since OEF started. We (the USAF) screwed up at the beginning of OEF and bombers were often times all we had to offer the Army. The STS guys used the bombers to chase bad guys around the mountains. The STS guys learned early that airplanes would show up every time if the said the magic word...TIC. It was rarely a true TIC but the word was out (SAF/PA style) that bombers were doing CAS with devastating effects. The effectiveness was inflated by the STS guys, not the bomber guys. The bomber guys just reported the BDA they were given. Hopefully, we solved the BDA reporting issues but Big Blue latched onto the idea that bombers do CAS. Many of you may not remember but the CFACC was under tremendous criticism from the CFLCC (and the local CJTF Afghanistan CC who forgot to bring his ASOS and Arty with him from Ft Drum) as soon as OEF started. Every Army shortcoming was blamed on a lack of USAF CAS support.

The initial stages of OEF was a mess from the USAF standpoint. I contend there would never have been a Robert's Ridge if A-10s had been on station when the AC-130s had to leave. We started flying from Kuwait and Pakistan right after that. In the words of the CFACC "Thanks to the arrival of the A-10s, order has been restored." This was not because of the A-10s killing power, it was because of the A-10 pilot's ability to CONTROL CAS in a dynamic environment, changing hats from attacking targets to providing Air Stike Control as required by the situation. It is what A-10s do.

After Anaconda we brought all players to a CAS Lessons Learned conference at Al Jaber to discuss changes to the SPINS. The war was still going on but we knew things had to change. Everyone showed up except the bomber guys and the CAOC and both had lame excuses. We rewrote the SPINS and things got better. We put jets on the ground at Bagram and things got better, simply because the CFLCC now had CAS airplanes in country, in the air and on 24 hour alert.

The bombers continued to pull their weight allowing the fighter guys some slack on the schedule.

Again, B-1s are great at what they do. It is not their fault that they consider themselves expert CAS platforms. The B-1 guys are tasked on the ATO to do "CAS" by the CFACC and they get the job done when tasked. Big Blue has sold the B-1 to the Army as a CAS platform for many years. They do this because there are not enough traditional CAS platforms to go around. The CFLCC wants 24 hour CAS coverage. The CFACC says they have it, with the B-1s. The CFLCC gets pissed and says he wants 24 hour fighter and AC-130 coverage. The CFACC says it is not the CFLCC's job to allocate aircraft but instead he should ask for effects and the CFACC will provide. I have watched this argument take place first hand on many occasions.

The end result of this constant furball is the B-1s are told they are CAS platforms and they salute sharply and do their best, just like anyone else would do.

Are the B-1s capable of doing CAS as I see it? No, not even close...but neither are the F-15Es or the LGPOS. I believe a CAS pilot must be able to do the whole CAS mission to be an expert and that includes ASC. Providing your own PID and CDE is a great capability, Being able to provide PID, CDE, DECONFLICTION and Clearance to drop for multiple flights (including your own) is what separates A-10 guys from the crowd. Considering this, you can see why A-10 guys consider everyone else a hobby CAS platform.

There are several different aspects to the GWOT and the real shooting is done by a small group. There are several different things that are called CAS and there are some real apples and orange CAS issues. There are guys who do the "no shit CAS" and there are guys that do ATO tasked CAS. The no shit guys know who they are, 'nuff said.

Let's remember two things before we get too far down the pissing contest drain...

1. Everyone wants to do CAS because it is a noble and rewarding mission to support the 18 year old American on the ground with an M-16. That's awesome.

2. All the fighter guys need to thank the B-1s for droning around the sky when things are relatively cold so we don’t have to.

Here's some support material for anyone truly interested in this discussion...

Big Picture

Bombs on Target

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Some additional reading from my research into the subject. Long and Army view points almost exlusively.

Air Commandos

Two points I found interesting.

1-They don't even love the A-10. They want extensive reforms to the airframe, engines, armament, etc.

2-One of the articles positively mentions B-1's (and other bombers, oh did I say a dirty word in this forum :eek: ) in a CAS role.

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When and why was ACE eliminated from the B-1? Seems like a cost-effective way to keep proficiency up. What are they planning on doing with the T-38's at Beale and Holloman?

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" As to ID'ing targets, we for sure do that. We may not always be able to get a good eyes on the target with the ol' MK-1 eyeball but we never release ordinance without positive target identification."

How can you say that you ID targets when you have no means, other than a beacon, to identify friendly targets? You can't see GLINT, you can't see sparkle. I know how "good" the radar is, but if the dudes on the ground don't have a beacon, then what?

The definition of TIC is 1 km, and even JFIRE says you guys are to drop on STATIONARY targets. If you start getting squirters, what do you do then?

As for the danger-close comment for a 2000 lb JDAM, since JFIRE publishes the mins and defines it as a "fire and forget" weapon, I'd venture to guess that any time they ask for JDAM in a TIC situation, you're going to hear "danger close", especially with the distance given.

[ 26. April 2006, 21:38: Message edited by: war007afa ]

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