guineapigfury Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I don't think that an abundance of flight hours = leadership, but a lack of flight hours = a lack of credibility. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I really don't have any clue, so this is a serious question. Do you really think that flight hours is the best indicator on someone's leadership potential? I think so. I've seen guys promoted below the zone multiple times after doing staff tours and have minimal tactical experience in the jet and their competence reflected that. These guys were followed only out of morbid sense of curiosity as long as your life wasn't as stake. I've worked for guys with 4500+ hours that might have been a little sloppy on staff issues, still hit the range on a regular basis, and didn't miss a beat keeping the focus on getting steel on target. These guys could have asked us to attack hell with squirt guns and we would have saddled up with super soakers. Success depends on the situation. With no difficult decisions to make and good troops, the incompetent can succeed but will eventually fail under pressure. The guy with more hours and more experience in all things operational has better odds of making correct decisions under pressure and, therefore, successful under most scenarios, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Man Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 sounds like a similar idea to the often lambasted "if i can't trust you to wear your reflective belt after dark, how can i trust you to fly a jet?" "if i can't trust you to fly lead/AC/etc, how can i trust you to be a good sq/cc?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HU&W Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 We've devolved to classic peacetime military leadership that keeps wars and warfighters at arms length. The only real way to change it is if there was a REAL need where your very way of life is threatened, the kind of need where hero leaders emerge to guide us to victory. I know these leaders exist in our ranks, but are currently being suppressed by the peacetime bureaucratic mentality. I honestly hope we never have to truly find out who those people are, mainly because of the horrible situation that would be required to draw them out, but also in case they've been so well suppressed that they can no longer emerge victorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 sounds like a similar idea to the often lambasted "if i can't trust you to wear your reflective belt after dark, how can i trust you to fly a jet?" "if i can't trust you to fly lead/AC/etc, how can i trust you to be a good sq/cc?" Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Wow! I am impressed. Please tell me more about your IP-ness and experience! Dude, you have no f*ckin' clue. Please continue. I'd love to know how or why it is I have no clue. I simply pointed out that I'm definitely not a nav, and I'm experienced. I normally don't agree with anything nsplayr says, but on this one instance I failed to see how his being a nav means anything. As I said, time in the jet can be an indicator of potential leadership, but it isn't the only thing. So please, give us some more of your obvious wisdom... Go troll elsewhere. Talk about impressed. I love it when tools talk tough on the Internet. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Please continue. I'd love to know how or why it is I have no clue. I simply pointed out that I'm definitely not a nav, and I'm experienced. I normally don't agree with anything nsplayr says, but on this one instance I failed to see how his being a nav means anything. As I said, time in the jet can be an indicator of potential leadership, but it isn't the only thing. So please, give us some more of your obvious wisdom... Go troll elsewhere. Talk about impressed. I love it when tools talk tough on the Internet. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsplayr Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I think so...I've worked for guys with 4500+ hours that might have been a little sloppy on staff issues, still hit the range on a regular basis, and didn't miss a beat keeping the focus on getting steel on target. Flight hours: More than 4,400 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LockheedFix Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Anybody that's read Not a Good Day To Die and remembers General Trebon's decision to overrule the guys on the ground in the Shahikot and get a bunch of guys killed should note that he had more than 7,000 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Ugh. I never said anything about being a nav. I also was careful not to say ALL pilots with few flight hours were shitty leaders. Nor did I say a ton of hours makes a good Commander.My bad for flying off on you. Everyone has different points of view on why the Air Force is fucked up. At least we all agree on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcola Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I personally have worked for a CC with little experience and no credibility in the jet (senior pilot wings with less hours than most FPs was the first indicator, always on the NMR list was the clincher.) This person compensated for their lack of competence in the jet by emphasizing the queep. "Lets rework the entire Sq organizational structure. Let's rework the actual physical layout of the Sq. Let's develop this... Let's develop that... I want one of these over here and somebody come up with a better way to do this...blah blah blah." The "bright ideas" were endless, but it was always somebody else's job to execute. Never any focus on ops or improving anything to do with the flight line. This, IMHO, is the danger of having an Ops Sq/CC who's emphasis is not on flying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Thanks pcola, that was what I was trying to get across. That is the leadership that I have seen from the guys who became pilots just to get to the top, versus the guys who became pilots, dedicated their careers to making lives/ops better and then got promoted because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinner Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) ...versus the guys who became pilots, dedicated their careers to making lives/ops better and then got promoted because of it. Too bad those are a dying breed... Edited March 9, 2013 by Spinner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Too bad those are a dying breed... There are still many around. They may not be evenly distributed among the various airframes though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) After the sequester meetings today at drill, I'm working on my own airline rec. letter Edited March 10, 2013 by matmacwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I personally have worked for a CC with little experience and no credibility in the jet (senior pilot wings with less hours than most FPs was the first indicator, always on the NMR list was the clincher.) Don't forget the fact that the type of CC described above gets an instructor/evaluator folder going on himself, because, you know, it wouldn't "look good" if he wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Too bad those are a dying breed... I have been lucky for the most part and had mostly CC's of this dying breed. I've also had CC's with tons of hours that sucked. All I'm saying is that I have yet to see the "one" indicator that says this guy is gonna be an amazing CC. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abmwaldo Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 He's the 8th WPS Honorary Commander and all around good people. Definitely gets "it." He is/was always willing to help out WUGS when they needed to decompress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornholio5 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Pretty much shacks it. Who wouldn't want to be a US Air Force fighter pilot? I just read that article this morning. Even though it is fighter specific, it is very true in the heavy world too. Has anyone on here read Tim Kane's book "Bleeding Talent" yet? I heard it is about the crap that we are frustrated about on a daily basis and I just wanted to see how it is. AMC was pretty bad on the queep and the AETC base I am at right now has taken the queep insanity to a whole new level. When I was in AMC, I was told by my supervisor that I am making myself look like a dirtbag because I am flying too much--damn, I thought that was our freaking job? When AFPC came and talked to us at the mindfvck school at Maxwell, they are worried too about the pending pilot shortage. The representative also mentioned they are ready to impose programs such as "stop loss" to keep the floodgates from staying open too long. When he said this, holy crap, you could hear every pilot in Polifka sigh and you could feel the tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck17 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 The representative also mentioned they are ready to impose programs such as "stop loss" to keep the floodgates from staying open too long. When he said this, holy crap, you could hear every pilot in Polifka sigh and you could feel the tension. Good points. But, every time I hear about this I laugh. What would a Stop Loss do to the flying community? Know what a non-vol, stop-lossed pilot is? Non-current - to the point of belligerence. DNIF chronically. NMR'd as a matter of fact... I have heard it 100 times that "currency is the responsibility of the individual". Think there is any incentive for a stop-lossed dude to maintain currency? MR? What are they gonna do if he is stop-lossed and was getting out anyway? Give him paperwork? Disciplinary action? Send them to Leavenworth? Doubtful. Everyone else who ISNT getting out would end up picking up the slack. Talk about turmoil... This is a non-idea from non-thinking, non-operator glass-lickers at A1. Simple as that. They don't know any better. I'd pat them on the head and move along... if the idea wasn't so dangerous. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornholio5 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Good points. But, every time I hear about this I laugh. What would a Stop Loss do to the flying community? Know what a non-vol, stop-lossed pilot is? Non-current - to the point of belligerence. DNIF chronically. NMR'd as a matter of fact... I have heard it 100 times that "currency is the responsibility of the individual". Think there is any incentive for a stop-lossed dude to maintain currency? MR? What are they gonna do if he is stop-lossed and was getting out anyway? Give him paperwork? Disciplinary action? Send them to Leavenworth? Doubtful. Everyone else who ISNT getting out would end up picking up the slack. Talk about turmoil... This is a non-idea from non-thinking, non-operator glass-lickers at A1. Simple as that. They don't know any better. I'd pat them on the head and move along... if the idea wasn't so dangerous. Chuck The problem was that this AFPC rep that told us about stop loss is a command pilot O-6 with a shitton of heavy time. Maybe he is just passing the "political answer" from A1 which was probably the case. The AF better start coming up with some creative ways to retain their pilots if this so-called "hiring boom" does occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck17 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) You must have found a unicorn. I think your assumption on him passing the info is most likely. Unfortunately, it sounds like the most lethal as well. Thanks for sharing your experience... I have a feeling this is gonna suck for a while - isn't there a saying about only being able to see see 25% of an iceberg above the water...? Ugh. Chuck Edited March 16, 2013 by Chuck17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 But, every time I hear about this I laugh. What would a Stop Loss do to the flying community? Know what a non-vol, stop-lossed pilot is? Non-current - to the point of belligerence. DNIF chronically. NMR'd as a matter of fact... I have heard it 100 times that "currency is the responsibility of the individual". Think there is any incentive for a stop-lossed dude to maintain currency? MR? What are they gonna do if he is stop-lossed and was getting out anyway? Give him paperwork? Disciplinary action? Send them to Leavenworth? Doubtful. Everyone else who ISNT getting out would end up picking up the slack. Talk about turmoil... That's assuming that the stop loss'd individuals are in ops squadrons. What if they are ALO's, white jet IPs, staff, drones? Even if in a flying billet, there's plenty of busy work that can be given to the seagulls, even if you don't want to deal with the hassle of administrative discipline when that work doesn't necessarily get done. I have been one of the most vocal nay-sayers of stop loss on this forum. I think it would take "full-retard" to a whole new level. But at some point, even I concede that it could be a blunt force tool used to make the numbers look better...and little else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 But General Allardice said that it didn't matter how low the morale got or if we chose to get out, that he would find other people to replace us! Douche. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everybody Knows Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Pretty much shacks it. Who wouldn't want to be a US Air Force fighter pilot? Interesting read. I tend to agree about his timeline (2008?). The only time I've ever seen a CSAF speak in my 13 years was when I saw Mosley at the Deid back in 2007. It was also the only time I've been a little inspired by a speech in person by anyone above the rank of O-6. That's not to say that Mosley was a rockstar, but he seemed to make a lot of sense to me at the time. Funny, one memory from that experience that stayed with me was two Lt Col's complaining afterwards that the CSAF spent the entire time talking with his hands in his pockets....I hadn't even noticed it myself (nor would I have cared), as I was a little burned out at the time and found it refreshing to hear someone at that level (CSAF) discuss the importance of the mission (aircraft and doing shit that we do with aircraft). I'm typically a good natured person and try and make the best out of any situation. However, I'm incredibly cynical when it comes to General officers. I find it hard to look at them without thinking that to make those ranks one had to have climbed over lots of people and screwed over more than a few on the way to the top (for many that even means putting their families as second tier). So, when folks got all excited about Welsh and what a great speech he gave once upon a time at some institution of learning, my only impression of him was that of a used car salesman or maybe even some motivational speaker wanting you to pay to see his seminar. I did not detect inspiration at all. I saw a guy who is focused on his 5th star, or maybe even a politician wearing an AF uniform. Someone on another thread mentioned the eagerly anticipated CSAF "Vector" that he told us in early Jan would hit the streets in a "couple of weeks" and reminded us only recently again that it would be out "soon". He's been in the AF for over 30 yrs, he's been the CSAF for over 7 months now, he has a massive staff to give him any data on any topic at a moment's notice and other than no blues on Mondays a few bases, we are still working in Norty's AF. And for anyone that want's to say, "budget crisis"...."he has bigger fish to fry" yadda, yadda, yadda, I say there's a reason we appoint very senior officers to that position and not same day one Lt and that has to do with experience (more than 30yrs in most cases)..............and yet somehow I feel like I'm still living in Norty's world.....oh well, its only morale I guess. Anyway, what were we talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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