F-35 Lightning info

[Lawman]

I'm all for the F-35...but admit it's limitations, and stop preying on ignorance to get it funded at the expense of other needed capes....it's a viper replacement, and we need it. I just hate the shady politics, leadership lies and the program progress in general.

As for brrrrrt ability......after getting to fly jets with 20mm/pgm ability and recently getting to do CAS Alla B-1 style, I can't even begin to tell you the difference but it'd be something like going from an iPhone 6 to a 2005 Nokia and wondering why you can't text or check the weather as fast but arguing "well, I can still do it".

Not a hit on other airframes but the hog was built for CAS...and does it well. And I can't begin to describe the proficiency level and mission understanding that comes from a community that focuses 90% on the single mission vs multirole.

For payload, loiter time, cost, firepower, the hog is a bargain. And it's survivable...there double digit sams that suddenly have become the "survivability" selling point for the F-35 have been around for 30yrs...why do you think we designed B-2s?

And apparantly everything can survive a peer threat except an A-10....Nobody will talk about the lethal manpads and unjammable optical AAA though.

All good points but the "Multirole or no role" writing has been on the wall for decades now.

Hawg and the light grey Eagles are really the only guys who have survived the culling of that model to today. And the Eagle guys are really only gonna last as long as we keep that platform since Raptors can and now have done strike. Remember just 25 years ago we had an airplane whose sole job in life was SEAD, the Navy and Air Force both operated a tactical strike aircraft with no air to air capability (111/Intruder) and we had a fleet of light strike A7s who like you only really worried about ground attack. Institutional knowledge is outstanding, but if you can make SEAD a squadron mission and not an aircraft mission for assigned aviators like you have done in the AF with the Viper it's hard to make the argument you can't do that with CAS and still be successful.

Same thing has happened in rotary wing. Ever since the 60 showed up there has been the effort to make what is the smallest size you can still call medium lift helicopter meant to be an assault/utility helicopter only based around an 11 man squad model, and make it do roles traditionally done by much larger much more capable airframes (CSAR, anti mine, sub hunting, etc). It was a Huey replacement... It turned into a Huey/H3/SH2/SH3 replacement.

[Prozac]

11 man platoon? Army much?

[stract]

11 man platoon? Army much?

pretty sure he's in the Army.  What's your point?

[Prozac]

11 men would be a pretty small platoon. Maybe the budget cuts are really hitting the Army hard. 

[Lawman]

pretty sure he's in the Army. What's your point?

No he's right, that should have been squad. Corrected for accuracy.

Point still stands the Hawk was invented to do one job and haul occasional ass and trash when it wasn't doing that job. It wasn't made to two an anti mine sled like the 53D so the Navy had to come up with a way for it to do that job, which included ideas as crazy as bolting a 40 mm cannon to it. It wasn't made to go very far while carrying anything(seriously small tanks) but strap on ESSS and tanks or an IFR probe and a whole lot of crap and suddenly it can do the job of a 53G....

Like I said multi role or no role. Mission creep is a bitch, but it's here to stay when we can't afford multiple MWS's. Apaches are being used as essentially a crappy mileage ISR platform and relay system for TOC porn. That's a hell of an underutilization for a 35 million dollar gunship that is so so at the role.

[Clark Griswold]

The F-35C is getting spiked.

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/10/f-35c-a-wrong-turn-for-navy-cnas/

From the article:

If the Navy cancelled F-35C altogether, Hendrix writes, “it could afford to purchase two squadrons of 12 Super Hornets [per carrier] (in addition to the two Super Hornet squadrons already present) to replace the two squadrons of 10 F-35Cs and purchase six squadrons of [drones] with 16 aircraft apiece (12 strikers and four tankers) and still be able to return money to the taxpayers.”

I've always suspect the Navy was playing it cool to see if it could get out of the JSF business, this is just an article and an argument but it has some valid points, the moolah saving and still buying new Super-bugs might persuade Congress to change heading.

Or we could do nothing and just keep driving towards the abyss...

[di1630]

Canada just elected a leader who said during his campaign he would canx Canada's involvement with the F-35. We'll see

[Lawman]

Canada just elected a leader who said during his campaign he would canx Canada's involvement with the F-35. We'll see

True, but the liberal Canadian party they just put in power wouldn't spend a dollar to upgrade their 30 year old Hornet fleet either so it's not F-35 being to expensive that's the problem for them.

[di1630]

I read an article where the new guy wants a more affordable jet than the -35....either way, I bet Lockheed is doing some thinking.

[Clark Griswold]

I read an article where the new guy wants a more affordable jet than the -35....either way, I bet Lockheed is doing some thinking.

Yup - new PM does not favor 5th gen stealth for Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-trudeau-scrap-f35-halifax-1.3235791

From FoxtrotAlpha:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/big-liberal-win-in-canada-is-bad-news-for-the-f-35-join-1737515488

[Prozac]

The new Canadian PM is also stating an end to combat operations against ISIL ASAP.  Wonder if they're thinking of eventually going the way of the Kiwis and abandoning fighters altogether.  F-15 Det in Comox maybe?

[Stitch]

The new Canadian PM is also stating an end to combat operations against ISIL ASAP.  Wonder if they're thinking of eventually going the way of the Kiwis and abandoning fighters altogether.  F-15 Det in Comox maybe?

Typical lib thinking. "If I get rid of any even potentially offensive capability the bad guys won't fear me and therefore leave me alone and the whole world will be peaceful land of rainbows and teddy bears. Oh, and then we can funnel all that money into social welfare programs."

GMAFB!

 

[Lawman]

Typical lib thinking. "If I get rid of any even potentially offensive capability the bad guys won't fear me and therefore leave me alone and the whole world will be peaceful land of rainbows and teddy bears. Oh, and then we can funnel all that money into social welfare programs."

GMAFB!

 

Exactly.

The guy is standing on a soap box of "we don't need this we don't do offensive ops with air power," but that's pretty obviously BS.

He says he wants to funnel the money into refits and upgraded Navy ships but the party he is part of spent a decade not putting anything into their military the last time they were in power. Somehow it sounds like step 1 for their upgrade plan also supports changing their minds and being step 1 of more money for socialized whatever.

[Clark Griswold]

Exactly.

The guy is standing on a soap box of "we don't need this we don't do offensive ops with air power," but that's pretty obviously BS.

He says he wants to funnel the money into refits and upgraded Navy ships but the party he is part of spent a decade not putting anything into their military the last time they were in power. Somehow it sounds like step 1 for their upgrade plan also supports changing their minds and being step 1 of more money for socialized whatever.

Yup - Canada is down around 1% GDP as are most of our allies, we're around 4.4% when you factor in everything and not just looking at baseline.  If the world wants us to help them keep the place from falling apart or being overrun by the Russians then put your money where your mouth is... 2% GDP is reasonable but the majority of NATO seem to forget that...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/nato-calls-for-rise-in-defence-spending-by-alliance-members-1434978193

On the F-35, McCain is now calling for fewer and in the article the incoming CNO said he would re-validate the appropriate number of aircraft the Navy requires."  Sounds like I am figuring out a way to hand this off to the AF and USMC to deal with.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/10/21/mccain-f35-reduce-total-buy/74350928/

[HU&W]

Some interesting vice news analysis on Israel's F-35/F-15SE buy.

https://news.vice.com/article/do-israels-new-fighter-jets-mean-stealth-is-going-out-of-style

And it's not just the heat generated by air friction that could be stealth's undoing. ThisAviation Week article notes: "Low radar cross section is a niche capability, and new sensor technology advances can make it less important. China, India and Russia are already finding weaknesses in stealth as they develop it for their own advanced strike aircraft." The story then goes on to quote a senior Israeli Air Force official as saying (of the F-35) "We think the stealth protection will be good for 5–10 years, but the aircraft will be in service for 30–40 years."

[Blue]

Electronic warfare will always be a game of countermeasures, counter-countermeasures, counter-counter-measures, etc,  ad nauseam.  Anyone who thinks their shiny new F-35 automatically guarantees them 20 years of invisibility to the enemy is fooling themselves.

The bad guy will buy/develop/steal better radar technology.  IR detection technology will improve.  Some new game-changing technology will come about where jets are detected from 100 miles away by the smell of the landing gear wheel bearing grease.  And on and on.

If I were the Israelis, I'd buy the F-15SE now, and start buying F-35's another 10 years from now, when the bugs have hopefully worked out.

I gotta think the US would be all for this course of action too.  Gotta keep those folks down at the F-15 production line in St Louis working!

Edited November 8, 2015 by Blue

[Clark Griswold]

Some interesting vice news analysis on Israel's F-35/F-15SE buy.

https://news.vice.com/article/do-israels-new-fighter-jets-mean-stealth-is-going-out-of-style

Not a bad idea, seems similar to the high lo concept of the F-15 & F-16 originally, this could have worked with an F-22 & F-16X if we hadn't gone all in with one platform for everybody and one platform doing a lot missions, maybe all pretty good and some great but time will tell...

Switching gears the F-35A, when is it projected for the first UPT class to get this as an assignment?

[EDDIE]

Switching gears the F-35A, when is it projected for the first UPT class to get this as an assignment?

Good question. How the hell are we supposed to develop tactics without coffee and corn?!

[Clark Griswold]

Good question. How the hell are we supposed to develop tactics without coffee and corn?!

No coffee...

For tactics development, there is a special LM watch that will record your hand gestures and via Bluetooth render them to a ppt show.  Only 1 million a watch but worth it.

 

[skinny]

Switching gears the F-35A, when is it projected for the first UPT class to get this as an assignment?

Per the Luke WG/CC, ENJJPT class 17-01 will be the first to drop at least one JSF. First B-Course starts Nov 2017 and will be roughly 8 months long. 

[Clark Griswold]

Per the Luke WG/CC, ENJJPT class 17-01 will be the first to drop at least one JSF. First B-Course starts Nov 2017 and will be roughly 8 months long. 

Cool thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[billy pilgrim]

Per the Luke WG/CC, ENJJPT class 17-01 will be the first to drop at least one JSF. First B-Course starts Nov 2017 and will be roughly 8 months long. 

Is it just ENJJPT?  I'm not 100% on how the process works - but if it's not, it should be 1 for the entire 17-01 class AF wide.

[brabus]

 

Per the Luke WG/CC, ENJJPT class 17-01 will be the first to drop at least one JSF. First B-Course starts Nov 2017 and will be roughly 8 months long.

Manchester.

Edited November 14, 2015 by brabus

[Clark Griswold]

Israel's F-35I Adir gets customized.

http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-israel-to-double-attack-range-of-f-35-stealth-fighter-1001068513

and from http://www.deagel.com/Strike-and-Fighter-Aircraft/F-35I-Adir_a000547004.aspx

The Israel Air Force (IAF) F-35I Adir is a variant of the F-35A Lightning II featuring some unique modifications required by the Jewish state despite the initial refusal by the USAF to allow such initiative. Israel will integrate its own electronic warfare systems such as sensors and countermeasures designed and produced domestically. The F-35I's main computer will be provided with Israeli electronics. Additionally, the F-35I will feature an external jamming pod, new air-to-air missiles and guided bombs in the internal weapon bays. Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) will be the major Israeli contractor involved in the F-35I program supplying avionics and electronic warfare equipment. Besides, IAI may play a key role developing a proposed two-seat F-35 as well as conformal fuel tanks for the F-35I aircraft. The F-35I may achieve Initial Operational Capability (IOC) by 2017-2018 with some 75/100 airplanes to be procured over the following decade. As of late 2014, Israel seems to be targeting only 50 airplanes by 2020.

For 50 planes, those features will be pricey but they may be hedging for the future.

From another article at aviation week, http://aviationweek.com/awin/israel-us-agree-450-million-f-35-ew-work

We think the stealth protection will be good for 5-10 years, but the aircraft will be in service for 30-40 years, so we need EW capabilities [on the F-35] that can be rapidly improved,” a senior Israeli air force (IAF) official tells Aviation Week. “The basic F-35 design is OK. We can make do with adding integrated software.”

Should we be looking at this too?  More fuel, additional EW capability...

Edited November 14, 2015 by Clark Griswold

[skinny]

Is it just ENJJPT?  I'm not 100% on how the process works - but if it's not, it should be 1 for the entire 17-01 class AF wide.

Unk. His words, not mine.