Gen Welsh - USAF Chief of Staff

[FlyinGrunt]

sqwatch has a point. I'm absurdly cynical, and as much as I want to say that there is a problem across the board with senior leadership and hypocrisy/ethics/self-promotion and general stupidity, put yourself in the CSAF's shoes. Is he not facing the same problem CGOs and FGOs face every day when questioned about 1 or incidents at the squadron level? 1's a fluke, 2's a trend, so we must all be treated like children since we ALL have a problem?

That having been said, it's time to fix the problem at the CSAF level the same way it should be handled at the squadron level. Full investigations, protections for IG and legal processes (and complainants/defendants/plaintiffs), and then when all is discovered, heads should roll if allegations are corroborated. After the heads roll, release all that is releasable, talk about what happened, and then outline what action was taken and why.

CSAF has a rep as a stand up guy who's willing to answer a direct question with a direct answer. Here in yet another scandal he has a chance to prove "we've got some bad apples. We investigated fully and took care of the problem. Moving on . . " I think that would answer the mail to Congress, and it would improve morale by orders of magnitude. Airmen don't want to be coddled, and those that do should have their attitudes fixed. But all airmen, from E-1 to O-10, have a right to fair treatment. The perception that fairness and justice, however harsh, is not the ethical standard in the Air Force is one that must be corrected, even if it's going to look bloody. Exhibit 1: Malmstrom AFB, past 6-9 months.

[Ram]

Some interpreted this as a pass to chaff off the regs. Some rolled their eyes and continued on promoting institutionalized missprioritization of queep-before-mission. Some took this as an opportunity to be a thinking Officer and make decisions on what could be knocked-off when faced with limited resources. What camp are you in?

1. Proven legacy aircraft? I want what you're smoking. Proven against an enemy with the same counter-air weaponry as the Triple Entente.

2. I love to sh1t on AFPC, especially when they give me the shaft. But to say the only thing preventing this latest debacle from turning into the abortion that the '11 RIF was ONLY due to the sheer number of VSPs is a stretch, and lacking factual substance. I have no idea what goes on behind the AFPC curtain, but I have a hunch that they extended their eight hour duty day and shortened their two hour lunches with the amount of work that's been piled on their desks in the last year. In fact, I'm happy I'm not doing their thankless job and I make no claim that I could do better without some firsthand experience in what's happening right now.

3. Agree with this line except the quote at the end - "no ethic problem". This is how rumors are started. Here's what he actually said:

"Do we have incidents? Absolutely," Welsh, the Air Force chief of staff, said in an interview. "Any organization with almost 700,000 people is going to have incidents. But we do not have an epidemic of bad ethical behavior by people across the Air Force. If you look at the numbers, that's simply not the case."

also,

"There's a big difference between an endemic or systemic problem and bad behavior by individuals. There's a big difference."

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140725/NEWS05/307250051/Welsh-gives-Air-Force-top-ethics-marks-Congresswomen-say-comments-troubling-

Should I be diapered for the actions of a few? What would you tell congress? Would you agree with Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand that there's a systemic ethical problem and undermine the vast majority of Airmen that serve with distinction on a daily basis? Or would support your subordinate's hard work and dedication despite the actions of some individuals?

Fvckin'a we have morale shirts, bullet proof mustaches, BBQ cook-offs and the like. The General tries to promote esprit de corps, and you tools use it against him.

I get it, there are issues. To blame them on the best CSAF we've had in the last ten years is retarded.

Slow clap, Thork. Well said.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

1. Proven legacy aircraft? I want what you're smoking. Proven against an enemy with the same counter-air weaponry as the Triple Entente.

2. I love to sh1t on AFPC, especially when they give me the shaft. But to say the only thing preventing this latest debacle from turning into the abortion that the '11 RIF was ONLY due to the sheer number of VSPs is a stretch, and lacking factual substance. I have no idea what goes on behind the AFPC curtain, but I have a hunch that they extended their eight hour duty day and shortened their two hour lunches with the amount of work that's been piled on their desks in the last year. In fact, I'm happy I'm not doing their thankless job and I make no claim that I could do better without some firsthand experience in what's happening right now.

3. Agree with this line except the quote at the end - "no ethic problem". This is how rumors are started. Here's what he actually said:

"Do we have incidents? Absolutely," Welsh, the Air Force chief of staff, said in an interview. "Any organization with almost 700,000 people is going to have incidents. But we do not have an epidemic of bad ethical behavior by people across the Air Force. If you look at the numbers, that's simply not the case."

also,

"There's a big difference between an endemic or systemic problem and bad behavior by individuals. There's a big difference."

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140725/NEWS05/307250051/Welsh-gives-Air-Force-top-ethics-marks-Congresswomen-say-comments-troubling-

Should I be diapered for the actions of a few? What would you tell congress? Would you agree with Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand that there's a systemic ethical problem and undermine the vast majority of Airmen that serve with distinction on a daily basis? Or would support your subordinate's hard work and dedication despite the actions of some individuals?

Fvckin'a we have morale shirts, bullet proof mustaches, BBQ cook-offs and the like. The General tries to promote esprit de corps, and you tools use it against him.

I get it, there are issues. To blame them on the best CSAF we've had in the last ten years is retarded.

1. So aside from low observable and data linking, what improvement over the aircraft it's replacing does the F-35 bring to the table? It's slower and less maneuverable than the F-16 and F-18, so we lose ground on the BFM front. And last I heard it can't pass a drop of gas, so cutting the KC-10 to pay for it is self explanatory. It is faster and far less survivable than the A-10, so we lose ground on the CAS front, and costs several multiples more than any of those aircraft. If you thing we as taxpayers or a nation are getting a good deal, I want what YOU'RE smoking. I get that the F-16, F-18, and A-10 are certainly due for recapitalization, but the only capability the F-35 has proven superior at thus far is funneling a LOT of money into Lockheed's coffers.

2. Maybe I'm bitter due to my individual circumstance, but VSP this round was another nightmare of buffoonery. I won't get into personal details because they're irrelevant for this thread (PM me if interested) but suffice to say, AFPC is still the same 'ole AFPC. The right hand has no idea what the left hand is doing, the left hand has no idea what it's supposed to be doing, and the right hand is in charge of ensuring the left hand is doing its job.

3. So at what threshold does a problem become endemic? Allegations (nothing more at this point, keep in mind) of toxicity and/or incompetence go all the way to the top at AMC, at least to the NAF level at PACAF, at least the wing in AETC, and from the crew to at least the NAF level in GSC. If I were a betting man I would say it's simply a matter of time before ACC and USAFE ident on this one too (Tinker is always a good place to bet on). I get that these problems weren't caused by the current CSAF, but he's the guy checking the mailbox these days, and he has been oddly silent on these issues.

I'm all for e'sprit de corps, but it's a sugar high at best when there are real problems that seem to be going nowhere fast. I also agree that the current CSAF is the best we've had lately, but after the last one I'm sure a shaved chimpanzee would be just about as popular.

And if you think I'm just sport-bitching, think about this-- the ethics thing (at least) is on congress's radar. The CSAF has already stated his case on the issue and it ran counter to the perceptions held by many, to include members of congress. The last time a CSAF gave congress the impression he didn't know what he was doing, we ended up with Skeletor. So continue to enjoy your hope-and-change if you want, but storm clouds may very well be brewing.

[brabus]

what improvement over the aircraft it's replacing does the F-35 bring to the table?

A mega fuck ton...seriously. Yep, its way over budget, way late and has been terribly managed. It will get annihilated in a BFM engagement against an enemy who has some clue about BFM execution (from a pure Em standpoint anyways). There are downfalls, but it's what we have to work with. Despite some of the downfalls, it still has some amazing capability (coming up in the next 3 years or so) that blows the majority of current fighter capability out of the water, minus the ol' Em diagram of course.

[BattleRattle]

Some interpreted this as a pass to chaff off the regs. Some rolled their eyes and continued on promoting institutionalized missprioritization of queep-before-mission. Some took this as an opportunity to be a thinking Officer and make decisions on what could be knocked-off when faced with limited resources. What camp are you in?

I'm in the camp that totally supports the CSAF's intention here. The problem is, if the chain of command between me and the CSAF doesn't support his initiative, it really doesn't do me a whole lot of good to chaff off the regs...

Which camp are you in?

Edited August 12, 2014 by BattleRattle

[17D_guy]

AFI dropped today restricting SOS enrollment until >7 years TIG. Currently enrolled in C are automatically cancelled and D have the "option" to cancel.

I'd call that a win.

[Azimuth]

Now he needs to fix the cluster fuck currently going on with SNCO PME.

[HercDude]

I'm in the camp that totally supports the CSAF's intention here. The problem is, if the chain of command between me and the CSAF doesn't support his initiative, it really doesn't do me a whole lot of good to chaff off the regs...

This is very true. For instance the CSAF has addressed practice bleeding, echoing what has been shouted from the rooftops by CGOs and Majors for a decade. But the colonels and generals between Gen Welsh & I just choose to ignore him:

[Slander]

Jesus people, you're insatiable.

He said 7 months ago or so that he was going to mask the master's for major and fix IDE/SDE for officers. He did. These things take time, you don't make 4-star general without understanding politics and he had to do some politicking at a few coronas to build his coalition to make it happen. He's also fixing the EPR system, or trying his hardest to fix it. I have no idea what the problem with SNCO PME is, I'm sure it's as screwed up as anything else, but if it is I have some faith it's on his (or the CMSAF's) radar and he's/they are going to work on it when he can.

Give the man some credit. He's following through with what he said he would. Are things better in the USAF now than they were 3 years ago? Yes. For at least the following reasons:

1) Mission focus -- he has consistently said his number one priority for performance reports is job performance. So, master's madness is on its way out.

2) Uniform improvements -- no more mandatory blues on monday, and he even did it in such a way that demonstrated delegation and trust in his followers vice micromanaging that we all hate. Although some of the people on this message board complained that he didn't just mandate no more blues on monday. And I can wear a red t-shirt on Fridays. And so can the MXG. And the MSG, and the MDG. I think it's cool that Friday shirts are back and even cooler than instead of it being only the primadonna zipper suited sun gods who get to look different on Friday now everyone can. Reminds me of the photos from the 90s with the baseball hats or whatever you silverbacks wore with BDUs.

3) Honesty and followthrough at the top. Nothing is perfect, but he is, in fact, doing what he said he would and trying to fix the USAF. His messages have been consistent and clear and at least in my little corner of the big blue world it's starting to make a difference.

So I get it dudes, we love to sport bitch. But this is way better than we were 3 years ago. Way, way better. The dude has to keep a lot of plates spinning so there will be things you aren't happy with, but overall life isn't so bad, Really.

<insert "BUT HE NEVER SENT OUT HIS VECTOR THAT HE PROMISED US 18 MONTHS AGO HE'S A LIAR AND AN ASSHOLE11!!111!!" comment here>

Edited August 13, 2014 by Slander

[Bender]

Way, way better.

Better, yes. Way better, not sure. When things are messed up it's too easy to focus on the "low hanging fruit" and avoid the root cause problems. The former gets defenders, increases morale, and is easily reversed. The latter is unrecognized, does nothing for today's morale, and is easily undermined.

Once you get to a certain level in a huge organization, unless you're staying for a long time...what would you choose?

This isn't easy on the most face value. If you aren't happy, what do you think you could accomplish that is worth the effort it would require?

Doing good things is good. Not doing bad things is good. Only doing bad things is bad. It's not what the cliche says but if we could just get more of that strung together. Too bad we'll have the 19AW/CC as a future CSAF instead, eh?

Bendy

[Hacker]

1. So aside from low observable and data linking, what improvement over the aircraft it's replacing does the F-35 bring to the table?

In all honesty, anyone who says this neither has the clearance or need-to-know to even be informed on exactly what the Lightning does bring to the table, nor the knowledge/experience to understand what that stuff it has means to the missions Lightning will be tasked with accomplishing.

There are a lot of things that are not so great about the Lightning. To cast those deficiencies into believing that it is not worthy of replacing the Viper and Hog is just ignorant. To even think that the legacy platforms are even remotely equipped to deal with the threats of the next 20-30 years that Lightning and Raptor will have to deal with it just ludicrous. With that kind of logic, let's go dig out the A-1s and O-2s from the boneyard so we can really go to town in the CAS world. Let's park all of those F-16CJs and whip out the F-4Gs, let's junk the Growlers and get the Spark Varks flying again. These are ALL aircraft where people cried that the world was going to end because the aircraft replacing them wasn't as capable as the aircraft being replaced...and guess what: somehow we've managed to just squeak by with those under-capable "replacement" MDSs.

In a double-digit-SAM and Flanker world, the Viper, Hog, Eagle, and Hornet are just not going to cut it with the margin that we need to ensure that we will win with the least amount of flag-draped caskets.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Hacker

[Herk Driver]

This is very true. For instance the CSAF has addressed practice bleeding, echoing what has been shouted from the rooftops by CGOs and Majors for a decade. But the colonels and generals between Gen Welsh & I just choose to ignore him:

EMS redacted.png

This is an apples and oranges comparison. The comment is not about a guy practice bleeding. It is about pushing a guy for SDE in residence so when he meets his O5 board he has a shot at being a select. Or did I miss something?

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[HercDude]

This is an apples and oranges comparison. The comment is not about a guy practice bleeding. It is about pushing a guy for SDE in residence so when he meets his O5 board he has a shot at being a select. Or did I miss something?

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

That's not how I look at it.

Everyone gets a PME push on their OPR, don't they? At least 2Lt thru Major. What the Exec or whoever is saying though makes it clear that the Wing's policy is that a guy CAN NOT get a PME push unless he has completed it in-correspondence already. This is 180° out from what the CSAF has made clear he wants to pursue as an AF-wide policy towards PME.

[Herk Driver]

That's not how I look at it.

Everyone gets a PME push on their OPR, don't they? At least 2Lt thru Major. What the Exec or whoever is saying though makes it clear that the Wing's policy is that a guy CAN NOT get a PME push unless he has completed it in-correspondence already. This is 180° out from what the CSAF has made clear he wants to pursue as an AF-wide policy towards PME.

Ok, got it. However, that is NOT Wing policy, rather it is AF policy, which is why I was a little slow on the uptake. The exec is taking that right out of AFI 36-2406 para 1.12.3.4.3.1.3, almost verbatim. Although it now only talks about in-residence completion versus correspondence so maybe the exec needs to have that pointed out to him.

What I saw was that there was no PME push whatsoever. He asked the chain to confirm they did not want a PME push in the bottom line. That seems to me to be what the exec was asking and then went on to explain the AFI information above.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

Edited August 13, 2014 by Herk Driver

[Herk Driver]

After looking at it since the Jan 13 version came out, that AFI reference only mentions in-residence versus any other completion method.

You may be correct especially based on other indicators from that wing. That being said, the old AFI said exactly what the exec spouted. Maybe a bro could point that out to the guy and the Gp and Sq CCs need to address with their boss.

However having some PME push is appropriate and it looks like there is not one based on the comment to confirm that rater and addl rater do not want a PME push.

If it continues after being pointed out, then you probably need to take it to someone other than BO.net to have it looked at.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

Edited August 13, 2014 by Herk Driver

[Bergman]

You can't help but like this guy. If he can get rid of the managers and find some leaders, I'll be all-in.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Bergman

[matmacwc]

Gotta love him, I know his heart is in the right place. Could you imagine what he has to deal with? We bitch enough here, who can he bitch to?

Edited January 23, 2015 by matmacwc

[Guest]

Gotta love him, I know his heart is in the right place. Could you imagine what he has to deal with? We bitch enough here, who can he bitch to?

Watch this clip from 29:15 to 23:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb8qvf4x02M#t=1748

That's who he can complain to. How often would you take your problems there?

Their dynamic is obvious. She provides the pretty phrasing for the cameras, heavily orchestrated for political navigation, and as a women, she gives the best veneer for sexual assault reform and equality. He's the one with the experience, knowledge, and gravitas for the tough questions.

For additional proof, watch CSAF Welsh respond to F-35 concerns from 19:00 through 22:30. That man has a silver tongue but he backs it up with facts and spins some slick support of the DOD into it, too. You know the reporter caught him somewhere painful, but he just wriggles away while still looking like a god-damn General.

[pawnman]

You can't help but like this guy. If he can get rid of the managers and find some leaders, I'll be all-in.

That is the trick, isn't it?

[Guest]

I love this reaction:

Edited January 23, 2015 by deaddebate

[tcf5566]

Every time I see that commercial I can't help but feel like we were his real intended audience more than it being a recruiting thing.

[Learjetter]

Every time I see that commercial I can't help but feel like we were his real intended audience more than it being a recruiting thing.

We are.

[Dupe]

We are.

In the outside world, its far cheaper to keep your current employees/customers than it is to get new ones. The same is true for all of you.

[Gravedigger]

Word of mouth is the best way to attract/lose customers/employees as well. Personal recommendations from clients are worth millions in advertising. The way current Airmen convey their service in the Air Force to the outside world directly impacts the composition of the Air Force going forward. If we project a shitty product, the quality of our Airmen will fall. The smart ones will choose to do something else, because they can.

[Beaver]

In the outside world, its far cheaper to keep your current employees/customers than it is to get new ones. The same is true for all of you.

Is this true for the military with our pension system?