Air Force to Army transfer (Blue to Green)

[M2]

When the grunts in my office give me shit about the tiger-stripe BDUs (spit), I fire back with this...

If you are currently serving in the Air Force or Navy and anticipate honorable discharge from active duty soon, Operation Blue to Green offers you some alternatives to civilian life. Participation in Operation Blue to Green is dependent upon your service’s willingness to release you from your current active duty obligation. Marines and Coast Guardsmen may obtain releases in order to reserve training/assignment options, but will have to complete their current active duty service obligation prior to enlisting in the Army.

Operation Blue to Green will allow you to continue to serve your country, to maintain the benefits of military service, and to expand your horizons by gaining new training and trying new things. It facilitates the transfer of qualified individuals from the Air Force, Navy, Marines or Coast Guard to active duty in the Army. Transfer to the Army Reserve or Army National Guard is also possible.

If anyone wants to **** with the Army....errrr....look more into this fine program, then go to http://www.goarmy.com/btg/index.htm and fill out the Operation Blue to Green Information Form. It does top out at O-3, so I am SOL. So are you, AirGuardian!

Plus, they'd probably want me to cut my hair!

Cheers! M2

[Guest ec130e]

Hello,

Anyone know what the process might be to go from an enlisted aircrew position in the ANG to a commisioned rotor driver in the Army? I am contemplating such a move. However, I have various obstacles I need to overcome, not to mention an age barrier. Would I have to go through the Army's 9 week basic training course, and then attend 3 months of OCS?

Thanks for any ideas!

[Guest Kiowaguy]

Hopefully this will not only help you EC130e, but inspire others to never give up.

I was a former crew chief on a C-5 (active duty) and I always wanted to fly Air Force, but I was over 31 by the time I finished my degree. Well, I thought that dream had died since the air force was not giving waivers (I tried) and the applicant pool is TOP notch. However, that desire to fly just kept coming up.

Soooooo I looked at other branches and was initially told no by everyone. But during prayer (yes, I went religious and if that offends you, please forgive me), I felt such a strong push to "not take no for an answer". I started researching the regs on age waivers and found the Army's more flexible than the other branches (Marines came in second). I then contacted units basically saying, "I know you can get an age waiver, but are you interested?"

To try and shorten it up, I found a state who supported me and I got an age waiver at 33 that will go up to 34. I am now a 2nd LT in the Army National Guard with a flight school date of April 28th 2005. I did not have to go to basic training, but OCS. If you do the Army guard, they have different programs to commission but I went through an accelerated program (that was hell on earth of course).

Sorry for the short story (if you want more details, just PM me), but I know there are people who always wanted to fly and ran into some hard times in life. I thank God for my chance everyday. I was told that because I am an officer and will eventually be rated, if after a few years I don’t like the army, I could switch over to the air force. Now that is a great option, but for now, I will enjoy where I am and be thankful that my dream is coming true. Not to mention Helo’s have been a blast.

P.S, just in case you just wanted the answers to your questions, No basic training for you, only OCS and you can get an age waiver. Hope that helps.

[Guest Kiowaguy]

Oh you are going to jump through some hoops and do a whole lot of waiting. I took my FC1 at Rucker and it STILL took two months for Rucker to give it the thumbs up. Crazy huh? Anyway, my best advice to you is to start running IMMEDIATLEY. Coming from the AF, I can tell you that is most of the prior AF and NAVY guys achilles heel. My first PT test almost had me give up my lunch, breakfast, dinner, even the formula I drank as a baby. Just run, do your push ups (to army standards) and sit ups. Try and do more crunches than sit-ups. A good PT score will get you a LOT of attention.

[Guest flintstone]

Kiowaguy,

Im a 34 year-old C-130 nav. I still want the pilot seat. What's a good approach to the ARNG to apply as a pilot?

[Guest Sam Dawson]

Originally posted by flintstone:

Kiowaguy,

Im a 34 year-old C-130 nav. I still want the pilot seat. What's a good approach to the ARNG to apply as a pilot?

Recommend you go to the APTAP site (Army Pilot to Airline Pilot). I know the Army Reserve is looking for pilots; with the Guard, you just need to find a unit. Most units are looking for pilots.

Also, they will probably want you to revert to WO; less pay, but all you do is fly.

[hawkdriver29]

I second the APTAP site, (aptap.org). Two other sites worth checking out are hawkdriver.com and kiowapilots.com. Quite a bit of good info on both flight school and if applicable WOCS. I know that I've also seen some threads on IST's plus info shouldn't be that hard to get. There's a fair number of WO's who came from the other services.

One thing to remember with the guard. Their deployments last closer to 18 months usually. They mobilize at an Army base a few months prior to deploying to train up, then the year deployment, then back to said base for reintegration training and whatnot. Not trying to dissuade anybody mind you. The guard has some good units and great people, and while they're gone longer, they won't/shouldn't go as often as active currently.

[ 27. April 2005, 03:03: Message edited by: hawkdriver29 ]

[Guest Sam Dawson]

Originally posted by hawkdriver29:

I second the APTAP site, (aptap.org). Two other sites worth checking out are hawkdriver.com and kiowapilots.com. Quite a bit of good info on both flight school and if applicable WOCS. I know that I've also seen some threads on IST's plus info shouldn't be that hard to get. There's a fair number of WO's who came from the other services.

One thing to remember with the guard. Their deployments last closer to 18 months usually. They mobilize at an Army base a few months prior to deploying to train up, then the year deployment, then back to said base for reintegration training and whatnot. Not trying to dissuade anybody mind you. The guard has some good units and great people, and while they're gone longer, they won't/shouldn't go as often as active currently.

Just a few notes. If you are commsioned, you do not have to attend WOCS- you are normally integrated as a WO1 (it use to be that CPTs and above integrated as CW2s, but this recently changed). I went from O-4 on active duty to CW2 in the National Guard. Less pay, but all you have to do is fly.

Also, I think the Army is attempting to change the mobilization process- I think they are realizing that aviation units are not the same as infantry units. My unit was mobilized for a total of 14 months for a one year overseas tour. The demobilization only took 5 days.

The "good" news is that if you are mobilized you will fly your butt off. Some helicopter pilots are getting 1000 hours in a one year tour in Iraq. That is ALOT of flying (body armor, flight gear, no A/C in the cockpit, people shooting at you, 135 degrees). I know some of the OH-58Ds were getting about 125 hours/month/aircraft while I was over there. You figure the normal troop only has 2 pilots per aircraft and it's a two pilot aircraft... well, you do the math. Even staff pilots are having to fly. Army Aviation is doing a 180 on the view of RLO flying abilities; the powers that be have suddenly realized that the leaders of aviation units REALLY DO need to know how to fly.

On the fixed-wing side, the C-23 units are now authorized to be at 200% strength on pilots as they are flying so much in the sand box (I think the schedule for most of them was 4 days on, 1 day off).

Also, as with the Air Guard and Air Force Reserve, you will find far more experience in the Army Guard than on active duty. My guard unit has 7 pilots with over 2,000 in UH60s alone; one of our pilots has over 18,000 hours (all helicopter time). Same thing on the crew chief side. Probably why we were one of the first units to return without bending an aircraft.

SRD

[ 27. April 2005, 15:11: Message edited by: SRD ]

[Guest JArcher00]

Have read some info lately and they seem to contradict. Here goes, If you are an officer in the AF and switch to the Army to fly, some say you have to "downgrade" to a WO. Anyone know if that is true? I read an AF O-4 had to go to CWO2 or something with those letters. Seems a little extreme. Any insight....yes I searched the site.

[ 29. May 2006, 02:43: Message edited by: RedDog ]

[Guest 60flyer]

You don't HAVE to downgrade. If you go to the Army side and you want to just fly, then go Warrant. Some units may just be short on Warrants or just don't have a need for higher ranks(MAJ, LTC...) at this time.

JT

[M2]

You may "elect" to become a WO to fly more, commissioned officers in the Army have very limited flying time compared to a WO; but you would not be required to become a WO.

You can check out more at the Blue to Green (B2G) Program and Interservice Transfer (IST) Program web site. For Aviation Branch info, go here.

Good luck! M2

[ 29. May 2006, 10:42: Message edited by: M2 ]

[M2]

Might also want to try the Army NG web site and the WO Flight Training School...

Cheers! M2

[Guest TalonLM]

Long story short I'm 30 with 90 AFOQT and 96 PCSM, took TBAS last week, no flying hours. Looks like I won't make the next UPT board and my chances are already slim to none..slim just left because of my age (I assume). Anyway, just commissioned a little over a year ago (10+ years enlisted aircrew) and now the aviation bug has got me bad.

Thinking of trying to go Army but all the info I can find is for WO...is there no such thing as transfer as a Lt and then flight school for Army? Thanks ahead of time.

[alwyn2d]

TalonLM

If you decide to go Army Aviation, you have some important decisions to make regarding your flying career. In the Army, Warrant Officer Pilots are their professional pilot force. They are the Examiners, IPs, Safety Officers, Mx Officers and everyday pilots in the unit. They fly their entire career. The commissioned officers ie LT and above, fly for 2-3 yrs then start their staff tours. Many Army commissioned officer aviators do not even reach the position of aircraft commander, always logging co pilot time.

Commissioned officers provide the leadership in the aviation units and the Warrant Officers provide the flying expertise. The Army is the only service that runs their aviation organization this way. In fact, every year there are a number of Army Commissioned Officers that take a reduction in rank to Warrant Officer to continue their flying career without regrets.

I recommend for you to participate in asking questions on this army aviation discussion board.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/3241924461

It will give you a better idea on the aviation career paths of Warrant and Commisssioned Officers. In the Army, the aviation warrant officers call their commissioned officer counterparts (2nd Lt and above) RLOs. Stands for Real Live Officers.

With your previous enlisted time you may want to go Warrant to stay in the cockpit until retirement. If you elect to go the commissioned aviator route I can almost assure you that your last five years in the Army will not be in the cockpit. That's a disadvantage if you wish to have a commercial flying career after retirement.

The Army aircraft fleet does include fixed wing aircraft as well. About 8% of the fleet is starch wing. Mainly C-12, C-21 and a few Gulf Streams C-20, C-37. Once again, piloted by the Warrant Officers for the most part.

I went from being an Army aviator to an AF pilot back in the 70s. Both flying careers were great, and believe me two very different mindsets.

Aviators in the Army are not on the top of the heap, it's the Infantry. As an Army aviator, your sole existence is in support of the Groud Commander. The Army takes great pride in parking their helos in the field with their ground counterparts. You get to set up field tents, pull security, wear war paint and two piece flight suits that look like BDUs.

Best of luck in your career change. And, army aviation isn't a bad way to go, just different. Thanks for your service, check six and happy landings.

[Guest Dawg16]

Talon,

ALWYN’s assessment of being an RLO in Army Aviation is dead on but I’ll expand on it a little. Apparently, not much has changed since the seventies and he made the right move. I’ve been out of flight school for almost 6 yrs now and I’ll do my best to tell you what it’s really like. It’s long, but I’m flying my desk in Baghdad right now and have plenty of time so here it goes.

First, before you make your decision you need to get as much information as possible. I would talk to a few RLOs and WOs. I think I speak for most of my peers when I tell you what life as an RLO in Army Aviation is like.

This is the typical career path for RLOs fresh out of flight school for your first 6 years:

Year 1: This is the best year of your career, if you’re lucky. Ideally, you’ll enter a flight company as a platoon leader and be responsible for 4 aircraft and “supervise” 10-12 WOs that are all PCs (Pilot in Command) for the most part and have a lot of flt time. Some RLOs out of Rucker are unfortunate enough not to get a platoon right away, and end up working in the S3 shop (more on this later) or other position. This is the year that you learn, fly, and generally have a great time. Use this time to learn from your WOs and don’t be a jack-ass or you’ll fall prey to the WOLF (Warrant Officer Liberation Front) which is a WO organization that specializes in black-balling RLOs that don’t manage effectively. Some will tell you this organization doesn’t exist, but I’ve watched many RLOs go down this way. Near the end of this year you’ll be a proficient co-pilot, and just when you’re ready to take a PC ride you move on to year 2.

Year 2: The fun is now over. If you’re lucky you got to take your PC ride, but most guys don’t. A new 1LT comes into your company and you find yourself in the S3 (operations), S4 (supply), or S1 (personnel) shop feeling like someone just hit you in the head with a wrecking ball. Hopefully you stayed in the Battalion, because if you were moved up to Brigade there is no hope for you to fly. I will focus on the S3 shop because this is where I’ve spent the majority of my time.

The S3 shop is where your manhood is tested by the Army culture. Here you typically work 12-14 hour days and a lot of weekends on the latest orders, power-point briefs, and spreadsheets. No club calls, no squadron bar, no fun. You will master Microsoft Office while your flying skills rapidly diminish because your S3 OIC (a burnt-out, wishes he’d gotten out 5 years ago, hasn’t flown in 4-5 years, workaholic, twice-divorced Major of a boss) makes you slave away on the latest brief or order and won’t support your desire to fly that wonderful aircraft you worked all of your life to fly. Meanwhile, your APART window is rapidly approaching and you haven’t even come close to making your flight minimums but it doesn’t really matter because the BDE CDR just waives them for all staff officers anyway. After 1 year of this you move back to Fort Rucker and…

Year 3 to 3 ½: Now your back at Fort Rucker, glad that you’re out of the S3 shop, and going through the Aviation Officer Advance Course. Here is where you really learn to be a great staff officer. No tactics, no flying, just immersing yourself in the Military Decision Making Process (MDMP) for 6 long months. You haven’t lived until you’ve spent weeks in MDMP and rehearsals. Once you’re done with this course you’re truly ready for staff operations.

Year 3 ½ to 5: You’ve moved to your new duty station only to find yourself on a BN, BDE, DIV, or even Corps level staff yet again!. Maybe you’ve been lucky enough to be assigned to the new Brigade Aviation Element, where you’ll serve with infantrymen for 2 years. By now it’s been so long since you’ve flown you don’t even remember how to fly.

Year 5 to 6: You haven’t flown in years, you’ve done 2 years in Iraq in staff assignments, and now you’re ready to take a helicopter company command, again if you’re lucky. Some guys get a Headquarters Command or a myriad of other assignments where the flying is minimal. If you do take command it’s been said that it’s an incredibly rewarding and challenging experience and most guys love it. You’ll fly during that year and the new regulations state that you have to be a PC within 6 months of beginning your command, but most guys don’t make PC.

Year 6 and beyond: You have a successful command and the cycle begins again. You head back to staff, reminisce on your glory days as a PL and CO CDR, and spend the rest of your career wishing you’d joined the AF.

To sum it up: Typically, RLOs fly 2-3 years out of a possible 20 yr career. There are BN CDRs (guys commanding a unit with 24 aircraft) with only 1400 hrs cumulative time during a 20+ year career. 1400/20 = 70 hrs a year = not good.

My advice to you: If you want to fly in the Army go the WO route. The flying for RLOs is minimal at best, but the staff opportunities are phenomenal. There are very few opportunities to be an instructor, test pilot, etc. I have known a few guys that have gotten lucky for being in the right place at the right time, but most of my peers haven’t flown in years and are looking at other options. I know I am. Good luck with your decision.

[brabus]

Well I think Dawg's asessment sums it up will....either go for the age waiver and get it, or go WO...after reading that, no way in hell would I ever go Army Aviation as an officer. If you really want to fly and AF is absolutely out, take the pay cut if you can and the "sort of" enlisted title and do it...if flying is that important to you. Guess you have a lot of pro/con weighing to do. Good luck man.

[alwyn2d]

brabus

The Warrant Officer rank is NOT a "sort of enlisted title". They're full fledge Officers that are due the respect of any officer. From being saluted by all enlisted ranks from E-1 thru E-9 to being members of the O'clubs, if O'clubs are still around. They are specialist in their given career field and Army aviation couldn't function without them.

[Guest basher]

Regardless of their privileges, Warrant Officer's are Commissioned Officers - capable of Command etc. Command being the key term, as all officers in the Army are in line for some sort of Command/leadership position. The most recognizable difference rests with their original source of commission - Department of the Army. Afer promotion to CWO-2, their commission/appointment status changes to that of a Presidentially Appointed/Commissioned Officer (no longer DA appointed Officer). With that, they are now eligible to receive "direct order" from the President of the United States, and Command a "force". You can view a Warrant Officer in the same light as the USN's limited duty officer. They specialize in a field and rarely venture outside of that field.

Some have attached "enlisted" in some form to the Warrant Officer Corps when making an argument for or against. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warrant Officer's (Army, Navy, Marine, USCG) are Officer's.

[ 07. September 2006, 22:02: Message edited by: Spur ]

[Vetter]

Can you turn in your AF commission and become a warrant officer in the Army?

[Guest ShortThrow]

Does anyone know if there are any possibilities on going blue to green in the last year of rotc? I know this sounds bad, but if I don't get a pilot slot I think I want to be a ground pounder.

I'm not holding my breathe on this, but I figured I'd begin asking here before I embarrass myself by asking my cadre.

Thanks. (I did search a bit)

[Guest basher]

Originally posted by Vetter:

Can you turn in your AF commission and become a warrant officer in the Army?

Yes. I have met and heard of U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy Officer's tranferring to the Army (Blue to Green) and changing their commission status to that of a CWO. However, they were rated pilot's before the change in status. Blue to Green without a rating, switching to CWO and applying for Flight School - may be a stretch. But, with the Army in such a bind for applicants (branch wide), they might consider such a switch. You'll encounter several obstacles since many recruiters will have no idea where to start. Your best bet would be to write a letter explaining your goal directly to Army Recruiting Command at Department of the Army. The USAF has many avenues, for the aspiring sister service officer, which accomodate just such a transfer. The Army on the other hand, well, they're still sending inter-office memo's via 'pony express'. Not much has changed since Custer said to his Chief of Satff, "I'll be back in a while, change nothing until I return".

There is a caveat which you must remain true to, do not trust a recruiter until he can validate his words with a "current" regulation. If you're serious about swapping your Commission to that of a Warrant Officer, try making contact with someone at the USAF RW school at Ft Rucker, they might have the contact numbers for you. Also, you may have reservations in terms of the surrender of your Commission. No worries, since you've held that rank and status, you can always receive approval to act in that capacity once more.

[EnriquePallazo]

A guy from my det did it two years ago, as I remember he finished up the AFROTC program while attending Army LLAB and their PT then commissioned into the Army and went to whatever training schools they normally go through. That was FY 05.

[brabus]

Are you really that worried about not getting a slot? But, if you don't, I can understand where you're coming from. A guy at my det was about to do it when he thought he was toast with the AF, but then AF worked out, so obviously didn't go through with it. But as far as I know, he was all set to do it. This was for FY06. So I'm pretty sure it's possible, and most likely very probable to do since 1) The Army is hurting for people 2) The AF is fat on people.

[Guest Hijole]

Talon,

Alwyn and Dawg are right on the money on their assessments. Prepare for the worst, but you might get lucky as a commissioned officer. Plus, as you get older, believe it or not, your interests might change. Lots of interesting assignment opportunities later on in your Army career.

In my case, I lived out my career until I felt like my luck was going to run out. I got to fly a lot as an LT and got to be an instructor at Rucker while doing an HHC command. Writing was on the wall, though. I knew I'd be headed to staff once the Rucker gig was up. So I joined the Navy. Now I'm an O3, in charge of only myself, and flying about three times a week. Loving it. Totally different world. My hat's off to the guys that stay in the Army and tough it out. I'm glad somebody gets the satisfaction out of cruddy staff work to make the battalions and brigades run.

[Guest ShortThrow]

I am confident in myself, but there is still doubt. I'm not at the top of any categories but I am working to get there. I know if I keep busting my ass chances are I can get my stats up to where I can be confident in getting a slot, but I just want to have a back up plan. Ya know?

I know this will come off as pathetic but I'll say it. My grades right now suck. I'm at a 2.5. I am only a sophomore so I WILL be above a 3 by the end of this year but that still isn't "Excellent". My PFA also sucks, which I will continue to work on. I think I got a 84 last semester. My test scores are descent so I hope to improve on those. The only good things I seem to have going are my character/community involvement. I seem to have a knack for leadership and I do volunteer alot.

Hopefully everything will work out for me, but I just want to know my options.

[ 08. September 2006, 09:32: Message edited by: Tertle ]