10 year commitment.

[Vertigo]

...but I would rather not spend a tenth of my life stagnating, just to collect a check.

You plan on living until you're 200?

[HeloDude]

You plan on living until you're 200?

He was talking about staying in for the additional 8 years after his commitment until retirement. Assuming living 80 years (close to the average life span), 8/80 equals one-tenth.

Edited for poor public math skills

Edited April 1, 2010 by HeloDude

[OL Patch]

but I would rather not spend a tenth of my life stagnating, just to collect a check.

Joe,

I actually consider the last ten years some of the most rewarding of the career. I don't think you could get up every day for 10 years and do the job we're talking about if you're ONLY motivation was a retirement check. There are always two sides, but I know a lot buds with marketable skills that WERE employed (non-airlines)doing some 20/20 hindsight sole searching.

I get it--follow your dreams, don't be scared of failure, etc. etc. etc....

retguy

[joe1234]

Good point. I'll do the math with you if you like. The problem is, most people cannot actually do that math. Be sure to calculate all factors, to include the value of the retirement benefits (primarily the paycheck and the healthcare).

Look there's no denying that monetarily, staying in until retirement is one of the smartest things you can do. A pilot's salary starting out is way higher than your age group. Even doctors and lawyers are still way, way in the red at that time. Then when you hit bonus time, it skyrockets even higher. Then when you hit retirement, it blows away any other pension plan out there.

Now, if the chips fall favorably, then I may end up staying in for 20 years myself. But, I just couldn't imagine pissing away what's left of my youth by counting down "1,937 days until retirement", stuck in a job I don't like, whether that job is military or civilian. What if I get hit by a bus and die with 587 days to go and never see a dime of that retirement money? Life's too short, man.

[sky_king]

In fact, I see it as wasting 8 years in opportunity costs of starting another career.

Opportunity Costs. That reminds me. I have a damn masters paper to write.

[Guest]

I actually consider the last ten years some of the most rewarding of the career.

2

...I know a lot buds with marketable skills that WERE employed (non-airlines)

Shack.

Most guys have no idea how much value the private sector puts on their leadership and general management skills. Lots of great jobs that pay a lot more than you'll ever make as an airline pilot.

To the group at large: you have to do what works for you, just be advised things change as you "mature" and the benefits of a military retirement coupled with a solid job in the private sector are incredibly valuable. Choose carefully and do the math.

FWIW, a military retirement is worth $1myn with after tax returns of ~6%, 4% inflation adjusted annuity payout and 2% capital reinvestment. And that does not include any benefits other than the retirement check.

[Quartz]

FWIW, when I was making the punch or stay decision (I'm at 18 now, so pretty much plan on staying) I talked to a bunch of guys over 45 that both retired, or did 4+ years and got out. Generally speaking, almost all that stayed had no regrets, and almost all that punched said thing like, "those xx years did go by fast", or "I could be collecting a retirement check by now."

Don't let anyone else make your decision, and just for joining and serving one tour you are far better than most, but there's nothing wrong with taking advice from those who have been there/done that.

[Guest Okawner]

I will admit, it is easy to get institutionalized in the AF - I think that is part of the reason why some folks do not want to part ways even though they may be able to do "better" on the outside. Think of Brooks in Shawshank. Life can be good sucking on the big, blue titty; especially in times like these if you have a family to support. I'm not saying I'm going to hang myself from the rafter in a halfway house when I retire, but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some trepidation there.

[Giggity]

After searching I felt this was the appropriate thread... What happens after the 10 years? Is it expected to continue flying because pilots are commissioned officers? Is it bad to get out after 10 years because of that? As I understand it, commissioned officers are never really out but I'd like to learn what that really means and how it relates to the 10 year commitment.

Thanks for any info

[ClearedHot]

1st and foremost, everyone gets the math wrong. The 10 year commitment starts AFTER you complete UPT, so in reality it is a 11 year commitment.

Today, most pilot will continue flying at the 11 year point, some will go to school and staff jobs, but the priority is to fill cockpits and the needs of the warfighter.

Your question lacks some logic..."is it bad to get out?"..."commissioned officers are never really out?" #1. the grading of good or bad when getting out at 11 years something you have to decide. Financial matters and career opportunity are the driving factors, not what someone else thinks. #2. When you get out you are technically in the inactive reserve, but it has been a LONG time since anyone was called back from that status.

Realistically, at 11 years you will be a pinned on major making good money and at the height of your aeronautical skills. Uncle Sam is not dumb, they know getting you to this point increases the odds you will stay out of a feeling of security if nothing else. In the end, it is a personal choice you should make with your family.

[Karl Hungus]

1st and foremost, everyone gets the math wrong. The 10 year commitment starts AFTER you complete UPT, so in reality it is a 11 year commitment.

Just to clarify for the noobs, when you add in 6 months to a year of casual status, and if you go to Pensacola/ Corpus Christi, you could easily be at the 12-13 year point when your 10 years is up.

I'd still punch at that point if things stay the same, which we know they will.

[Jaded]

Today, most pilot will continue flying at the 11 year point, some will go to school and staff jobs, but the priority is to fill cockpits and the needs of the warfighter.

Does anybody have any stats that show what percentage of rated individuals are flying at the 10 year point? It seems like that's prime territory for ALO, UAV, staff, PME, 365s, etc. At least in the F-16 community, the perception is that if you're not going to weapons school, you're probably not going to fly your MWS for more than one assignment (2-3 years).

[HuggyU2]

Does anybody have any stats...

With so much change toward RPA',... TAMI21,... and other issues,... there would probably be limited data that will validate anything current.

FWIW: I separated at the 14 year, 9 month point... at the time, I thought it was best for my family's future.

2 years later, I came back on active duty. Your mileage may vary.

[Guest Alarm Red]

Does anybody have any stats that show what percentage of rated individuals are flying at the 10 year point? It seems like that's prime territory for ALO, UAV, staff, PME, 365s, etc. At least in the F-16 community, the perception is that if you're not going to weapons school, you're probably not going to fly your MWS for more than one assignment (2-3 years).

Read the stats in the Viper assignment handout for Spring '11 VML. I don't recall exactly but for the Fall '10 VML, around 75% of movers who were in a Viper cockpit, moved to another Viper cockpit.

I'd go with truth data before going with the latest bitches/gripes/complaints from the scheduling couch.

[matmacwc]

Does anybody have any stats that show what percentage of rated individuals are flying at the 10 year point? It seems like that's prime territory for ALO, UAV, staff, PME, 365s, etc. At least in the F-16 community, the perception is that if you're not going to weapons school, you're probably not going to fly your MWS for more than one assignment (2-3 years).

At the 11 year point, got an assignment ALPHA to ALPHA. Not happy about it, no RIP to decline the assignment yet, not too upset about the loosing the retirement, I have a ANG backup. I had an old cranium tell me at one point, if you are not having fun, do something else, thats my plan. I had fun in the Viper for 5 years, but the future looks grim for a non-patch. Anyone work AFPC to delete the PCS commitment? Only way I'm taking that job.

[Duster]

Read the stats in the Viper assignment handout for Spring '11 VML. I don't recall exactly but for the Fall '10 VML, around 75% of movers who were in a Viper cockpit, moved to another Viper cockpit.

I'd go with truth data before going with the latest bitches/gripes/complaints from the scheduling couch.

Is this pretty typical for all airframes? How about once you leave the cockpit and take something where no flying is involved? Can a majority of guys count on coming back to their original airframe?

Edited November 4, 2010 by double d

[Learjetter]

No one knows the future: therefore set yourself up for success--you don't get that many choices while in uniform, might as well think about this: even if you plan to get out ASAP, your future employers will want to know how you performed in the AF--did you upgrade on time? division chief tour? Flight commander tour? Get your masters? Get your PME done? Even airlines will ask about that. So, what I tell my young Lts and Capts is this: the flightpath to decision height is the same whether your choose to land, or go around. If you get off course, or way above or below glidepath--your decision is made for you, you lose options. So play the game righteously, and you give yourself options. Fail to play, or play poorly, and your decisions get made for you.

I recommend everyone go to the AFPC/VMPF sites and the AMS site and read everything there. On your AMS profile, actually look at the briefings that detail the "typical" pilot career path. Educate yourself as to what jobs are out there: search AMS authorizations and requriements (+/- 1 grade)--you may surprise yourself with all the stuff out there you know nothing about. Flying staff jobs (like mine), flying HHQ jobs, special flying programs, green door stuff, etc. Not to mention cool jobs that have nothing to do with flying. They're out there. It may be up to you to find them.

I've been in since 1990, and have been flying continuously since 1994 (five separate airframes). I'll never be a squadron commander, nor a general officer, but I've never regretted staying in.

/off soapbox

[nrodgsxr]

I would have never signed a 10 year commitment if I had known there was a UAV possibility. I hate UAVs with a passion.

Had I known I would have went to a different service that lets their enlisted fly UAVs.

Edited November 5, 2010 by nrodgsxr

[killacam]

After searching I felt this was the appropriate thread... What happens after the 10 years? Is it expected to continue flying because pilots are commissioned officers? Is it bad to get out after 10 years because of that? As I understand it, commissioned officers are never really out but I'd like to learn what that really means and how it relates to the 10 year commitment.

Thanks for any info

Here are a couple of stories from two years ago that address pilot retention at the 10 year point.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/10/airforce_pilot_bonus_092208/

http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2008/10/rebuilding-air-force-retention.html

Highlights:

Fewer fighter pilots taking re-up bonus

By Bruce Rolfsen - Staff writer

Posted : Tuesday Oct 21, 2008 19:46:40 EDT

Almost two-thirds of pilots eligible to sign up for the $125,000 pilot bonus are agreeing to stay in the Air Force for five more years. But only 57 percent of fighter pilots are opting to stay. Just 33 percent of eligible Raptor pilots and 49 percent of eligible Warthog pilots have decided to take the bonus.

The numbers for the Raptor are puzzling, given that it is the jewel of the fleet and a prized assignment, but Lt. Col. Dewey DuHadway, chief of rated force policy, noted that only 15 F-22A pilots became eligible for the bonus this fiscal year, which began in October 2007. It’s hard to draw conclusions from such a small sample, he said.

The Air Force Manpower Agency is developing a questionnaire to ask pilots what factors proved decisive on why they accepted or rejected the bonus.

DuHadway said he suspects frequent deployments and high operational tempo are the main issues, because many of the pilots eligible for the bonus started their operational careers in 2001.

Eight in 10 air battle managers, who fly in the back of the service’s large command-and-control aircraft, are signing up for their $75,000 bonus and promising to stay another five years.

By the end of August, 64.5 percent of the 764 pilots who reached the end of their eight-year service commitment this fiscal year had accepted the bonus. Another 109 pilots became eligible in September, the last month of the fiscal 2008 program.

At the start of the 2008 program, service officials predicted a take rate of about 60 percent. During 2007, 67 percent took the offer...

.

.

.

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Edited November 6, 2010 by killacam

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Speaking of that bonus, we should be hearing soon if there will be a FY11 bonus...

[BQZip01]

Here are a couple of stories from two years ago that address pilot retention at the 10 year point.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/10/airforce_pilot_bonus_092208/

http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2008/10/rebuilding-air-force-retention.html

Obviously SOMEONE missed the lawsuit notice from the AF times. Don't quote the entire article.

[Hacker]

I would have never signed a 10 year commitment if I had known there was a UAV possibility. I hate UAVs with a passion.

Had I known I would have went to a different service that lets their enlisted fly UAVs.

So much for "Officers First".

[nrodgsxr]

So much for "Officers First".

Easy for you to say. You're not stuck operating predators for a majority of your upt ADSC.

[ViperStud]

There has only been one constant over the years when it comes to assignemnts and staying in the jet - the top third of bros on the VML are generally happy, and the top guy usually gets his top pick. Do good, don't suck and you should be OK, bullshit like TAMI notwithstanding. I know several non-patches who have gone ops-ftu-ops, ops-remote-ops or even remote-ops-ftu-ops. I'm sitting at 6+ years in the cockpit and never even applied to WIC. Now the porch is saying that due to the lack of TX classes (2 less SQs at Luke), there will be opportunities for current/qual guys to stay in the cockpit. An old CC pushed the porch's vision at the time, which was that for non-patches your first three tours would be one each remote/ops/ALFA. Two years later I'm kinda glad I didn't put that ALO gig up too high and ended up staying in the cockpit. The outlook at the porch is dynamic, and what they say changes from VML to VML, even moreso from assignment to assignment.

Bottom line: Upgrade early and often, compete well on the rack and stack, ask for what you want and never ever volunteer for a bad deal to try and game the system. The big thing severals years ago was "needing to knock out that ALFA" and now they are talking about opportunities to stay in the jet.

Question - aside from bro-level WOM, are there any good sources to find the random singleton assignments out there? The mainstream requirements are easy enough to find, but those random 11F billets that are seemingly everywhere are a well kept secret.

So much for "Officers First".

EABOD. I was slightly older than the guys that were eligible for TAMI. I remember when it happened some CCs were honest, knew it was a bad deal and treated it as such with the bros. Other CCs towed the company line like robots and spouted off like the dipshit generals about what a "good deal" it was and how "excited about these new emerging opportunities" our young wingies should be. One of the foremost differentiations between good and bad CCs is how in touch they are with the guys they command, and comments like that show that you probably fall in the latter group. I'd like to see how those dudes with 3K+ hrs in the F-10X, F-4 and F-16 would have taken the news as punks.

Nothing is for sure with the assignments process, just do your best and set yourself up for success. If you can't handle the fact that you don't 100% control your destiny, do something else. One is an officer first if he's kicking ass and taking names regardless of the job he is called to do. It does not mean you have to blindly jump for joy when the AF bends you over.

[Hacker]

EABOD.

That's seriously your answer to me when you later say,

If you can't handle the fact that you don't 100% control your destiny, do something else. One is an officer first if he's kicking ass and taking names regardless of the job he is called to do.

Yes, exactly.

None of us were drafted -- we all volunteered. Everyone -- EVERYONE -- knows the score when they sign on the dotted line. Anyone who claims they didn't know are either ignorant or in denial. Too many completely lose that perspective.

Not willing to serve in that UAV job? Shoulda stayed a civilian, because everyone knows the bottom line when they sign up to be in service to Uncle Sam. All of us who are line officers, when it comes down to it, can do anything up to and including grabbing the rifle and charging the machine gun nest. We ALL serve at the pleasure and convenience of our leadership, and it's not Burger King where you can "have it your way".

Career hasn't gone the way you wanted? Boo-fucking-hoo -- join the club. It's called "the service" because it ain't about you.