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1 hour ago, FLEA said:

 Here is the dude who apparently drives all this. Going to actually watch this later. 

Gist:

1. He thinks he’s the god of health and fitness.

2. The test is a health-risk indicator not an overall fitness or performance indicator.

3. Running and BMI are all you need to predict healthcare costs.

4. Hopes to implement random testing modeled after random drug testing to incentivize year-round health.

5. Occupational tests are for fitness and performance testing.

Edited by Klepto
Changed tense.
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Gents, here's the point. The PT test is a standard. It is a standard in the AF, as it is in every other service in every other military in the world. While there may be some bafoonery being execute

How did you mentally prepare yourself to become such a badass? 

Last time I ran from a burning jet I ran away at a medium pace for 1.5 miles straight off base. Then I did 80 pushups to impress the locals.

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Here’s what I would like to know.  If the supposed goal of this is overall heath and healthcare cost. Then why isn’t the waist measurement, which is how they check BMI correct?, not done during our yearly PHA? I can tell you that a good amount of PT failures for men under 29 is from the run. While I think we need to keep the test the way it is, hell I’d love to see it go to a 5k obstacle course, OCR style, run where it’s a total body test. 

While this guy my name good at what he does he is by no means the end all for the AF test. I’ve see guys who are major power lifters get pushed out cause they don’t meet what the charts say as for height/ weight even though they are in a different condition than 99% of the rest of us. 

 

This is should be coming from the medical side of the house not the fitness side driving it. 

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1 hour ago, cragspider said:

If the supposed goal of this is overall heath and healthcare cost. Then why isn’t the waist measurement, which is how they check BMI correct?, not done during our yearly PHA?

Doctors aren’t trained to do waists measurements 😂

If they gave them that additional duty, they’d have to raise their bonus to maintain retention.

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55 minutes ago, Klepto said:

Doctors aren’t trained to do waists measurements 😂

If they gave them that additional duty, they’d have to raise their bonus to maintain retention.

You are correct. I forgot about that one.  Ahahah. This is all a big joke. The only thing I even like that Enlisted Jesus said was the random test.  

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I vote for public shaming and rehabilitation.  People who are obviously fat should be mocked and made to attend daily organized PT.  After un-fucking themselves they then owe two years of PT mocking patrol and helping other fatties get skinny.

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11 hours ago, FLEA said:

Oh man I want to rant and rave so badly about the PT test but I think about about the 9 or 10 year point you just lose the will for it anymore. The AF is not serious about building healthier airmen. What's the point in trying to get them to realize how to make it better. 

I also have given up on the AF actually caring about fitness....as I have gone a decade struggling to get a 90 or almost fail because of the waist but can still run around a 10 min 1.5 mile (sometimes 10+, sometimes in the mid 9's).  I still lose 7+ points on my score due to the waist alone.  I got numb years ago to the out of shape little people getting better scores than me.  

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9 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

I also have given up on the AF actually caring about fitness....as I have gone a decade struggling to get a 90 or almost fail because of the waist but can still run around a 10 min 1.5 mile (sometimes 10+, sometimes in the mid 9's).  I still lose 7+ points on my score due to the waist alone.  I got numb years ago to the out of shape little people getting better scores than me.  

I’m in the exact same boat as you!

I’ve had the same size waist since I was 18 years old (38.5-39.0) and haven’t slowed down on my 1.5 mile run since I joined 18 years ago but I am “obese” per BMI because I’m not a toothpick and on the verge of failing every time!

I blame Gen Skeletor that implemented the stupid waist measurement in the PFT!  By God, he was 150lbs soaking wet and probably had a 28” waist.  If I was that small I’d want a bonus too on the PFT.

Hell, all I want is the waist measurement to be removed and I’d be happy...

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3 hours ago, cragspider said:

You are correct. I forgot about that one.  Ahahah. This is all a big joke. The only thing I even like that Enlisted Jesus said was the random test.  

As someone who dreads every test...I hate this part most of all.

"Welcome back from Thanksgiving leave... You have a PT test on Monday". 

"Christmas is on Monday this year, family day is Tuesday... You test on Wednesday"

No thank you.

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10 hours ago, pawnman said:

As someone who dreads every test...I hate this part most of all.

"Welcome back from Thanksgiving leave... You have a PT test on Monday". 

"Christmas is on Monday this year, family day is Tuesday... You test on Wednesday"

No thank you.

I would hope they would at least give you a few days notice. I don’t stress about the PT test but I avoid eating certain meals the night before and have a light breakfast. God forbid they popped me for a random PT test and I had the Mexican supreme meal #7 for dinner the night before or picked up a breakfast burrito with my morning cup of Joe. I would make it about 200 yards before I dropped my swishy shorts and called   “weapons away” and “splash one”. Not to mention I tend to be a little errrrr “dehydrated” on Monday’s during football season when I’m not flying. 

Edited by viper154
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2 hours ago, pawnman said:

As someone who dreads every test...I hate this part most of all.

"Welcome back from Thanksgiving leave... You have a PT test on Monday". 

"Christmas is on Monday this year, family day is Tuesday... You test on Wednesday"

No thank you.

While I do understand the freed of it every year. I see it used on people who need it. But my one caveat to it would be that the CC would be required to be there and run it as well.  But let’s be real here that’s not going to happen.  

 

1 hour ago, viper154 said:

I would hope they would at least give you a few days notice. I don’t stress about the PT test but I avoid eating certain meals the night before and have a light breakfast. God forbid they popped me for a random PT test and I had the Mexican supreme meal #7 for dinner the night before or picked up a breakfast burrito with my morning cup of Joe. I would make it about 200 yards before I dropped my swishy shorts and called   “weapons away” and “splash one”. Not to mention I tend to be a little errrrr “dyhrdrayed” on Monday’s during football season when I’m not flying. 

I died laughing reading that. So very true on all accounts.  

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9 hours ago, cragspider said:

Here’s what I would like to know.  If the supposed goal of this is overall heath and healthcare cost. Then why isn’t the waist measurement, which is how they check BMI correct?, not done during our yearly PHA? I can tell you that a good amount of PT failures for men under 29 is from the run. While I think we need to keep the test the way it is, hell I’d love to see it go to a 5k obstacle course, OCR style, run where it’s a total body test. 

While this guy my name good at what he does he is by no means the end all for the AF test. I’ve see guys who are major power lifters get pushed out cause they don’t meet what the charts say as for height/ weight even though they are in a different condition than 99% of the rest of us. 

 

This is should be coming from the medical side of the house not the fitness side driving it. 

Funny you say that. I advocated once that the entire fitness center, hawc, fac, should me moved under and managed by the medical group, not the FSS. I also think the only thing that should be tested is body fat composition. The dude in the video sounds like a douche canoe. And he is using 40 year old science. The vast majority of literature today concludes a strength based workout is more important than heavy cardio to maintaining a healthy lifestyle. 

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Maybe we should use doctors to identify health risks.  Roll the body comp into the pha and use medical solutions for medical problems.  If you absolutely must use nonmedical fitness testers for a ‘health’ assessment, mitigate with an inbody scanner for visceral fat level, not a meaningless tape measure.

If I we’re king for a day, I’d make it simple, functional, and occupationally relevant.  4 part test, no gender bias.  No universal. ‘passing score.’  Minimums are based on AFSC with potential different standards for accession and for retention.  Retention decisions are completely commander’s business.

1. Squat - 75% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

2.  Overhead press - 33% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

3.  Deadlift - body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

4.  20m shuttle run - max 20m lengths in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per length

Edited by HU&W
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5 hours ago, HU&W said:

Maybe we should use doctors to identify health risks.  Roll the body comp into the pha and use medical solutions for medical problems.  If you absolutely must use nonmedical fitness testers for a ‘health’ assessment, mitigate with an inbody scanner for visceral fat level, not a meaningless tape measure.

If I we’re king for a day, I’d make it simple, functional, and occupationally relevant.  4 part test, no gender bias.  No universal. ‘passing score.’  Minimums are based on AFSC with potential different standards for accession and for retention.  Retention decisions are completely commander’s business.

1. Squat - 75% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

2.  Overhead press - 33% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

3.  Deadlift - body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

4.  20m shuttle run - max 20m lengths in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per length

You should see the JTAC PT test.... that thing is brutal.

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5 hours ago, HU&W said:

Maybe we should use doctors to identify health risks.  Roll the body comp into the pha and use medical solutions for medical problems.  If you absolutely must use nonmedical fitness testers for a ‘health’ assessment, mitigate with an inbody scanner for visceral fat level, not a meaningless tape measure.

If I we’re king for a day, I’d make it simple, functional, and occupationally relevant.  4 part test, no gender bias.  No universal. ‘passing score.’  Minimums are based on AFSC with potential different standards for accession and for retention.  Retention decisions are completely commander’s business.

1. Squat - 75% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

2.  Overhead press - 33% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

3.  Deadlift - body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

4.  20m shuttle run - max 20m lengths in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per length

I like what you are getting at because at the end of the day people will practice on what they test so. The fact that a squat movement isn't included in a PT test is atrocious. Because the muscular compositions of 3/4 of your body massage is apparently not important? 

But yeah there are a ton of people in the AF that for whatever reason think running is the bee's knees of exercise and when you look at an Olympic marathon runner vs any other athlete, the latter is clearly equipped with a better physique to carry them into old age. 

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3 hours ago, Seriously said:

 

You should see the JTAC PT test.... that thing is brutal.

I actually like the battlefield airman tier 2 test. Way too complex for the masses, but a much more relevant assessment. 

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11 hours ago, HU&W said:

Maybe we should use doctors to identify health risks.  Roll the body comp into the pha and use medical solutions for medical problems.  If you absolutely must use nonmedical fitness testers for a ‘health’ assessment, mitigate with an inbody scanner for visceral fat level, not a meaningless tape measure.

If I we’re king for a day, I’d make it simple, functional, and occupationally relevant.  4 part test, no gender bias.  No universal. ‘passing score.’  Minimums are based on AFSC with potential different standards for accession and for retention.  Retention decisions are completely commander’s business.

1. Squat - 75% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

2.  Overhead press - 33% body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

3.  Deadlift - body weight - max reps in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per rep

4.  20m shuttle run - max 20m lengths in 5 minutes - 25 reps max - 1 point per length

This is very similar to the old Fighter Air Crew (FAC) year we used to take. It was about 6 different weightlifting movements (bench, lat pull downs, bicep curls, squats, leg curls, and maybe leg extensions?) all based off of your body weight (percentages like you suggest) along with another set of squats at body weight and crunches.  Of course this test didn’t mean anything, but you had to pass it by the end of IFF (and then again at the beginning of the B course) or you couldn’t fly a fighter. 

They have since changed it and it is no longer a test but a “program” leading you to a healthy way of life (read: FW/CCs got a hard on for CrossFit), but I always thought it was BS that I had a test specifically developed for my afsc, yet still also had to pass the skinny test. This also disregards that the current test favors thin, runner types, who are also the folks who usually have the most G-tolerance problems.

If I was king for a day, there would either be a test like you suggest, or the test would have 6-9 different events (pull up, push up, sit up, run, squat, bike, maybe swim, etc) - you pick 3. The standards could/should be pretty high, since different folks have different strengths and this isn’t a “one size fits all” (pun intended) so you are expected to do well in events you get to choose.

Until I am shown that every human has the exact same size bone structure, any sort of size standard (be it waist, waist/neck, weight/height, BMI) is complete garbage. 

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Keep the current test in place; eliminate the “minimum passing standards” for each event. All that matters is if you get above a 75.

Unfortunately the fear among the generals is seeing a bunch of fats kids in their uniform, so therein lies the purpose of the waist measurement. There are multiple ways to skin the cat, and it all depends on what you think is the best way to achieve fitness; i.e.  Running, weight training, or HIIT. 

Edited by jrizzell
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I don't think putting fitness tests under the need group really makes sense. I don't go to the doctor to get advice on how to lift or improve aerobic fitness-if I want that guidance, I'd go to a personal trainer. Remember, the flight doc is the one who will try to solve all problems with 800mg of Motrin, if you even get to see a doctor and not a NP or PA. I can see BMI assessment moving to the med group though.

The real question is what is it fitness test really measuring? My job invoices going from one chair (office) to another chair that moves a little faster (the jet) and sitting their for extended periods of time. Doing squats and deadlifts have about about as much functional relevance to my job as the current test.

If I were King for a day? Pushups, situps, run. 33%/33%/34%. BMI can be left to the PHA. Simple test, no need for special equipment, can be practiced pretty much anywhere. Maybe have a few options for the aerobic portion like the Navy has (run/bike/swim). Battlefield airmen keep their functional tests as AFSC specific events.

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39 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

I don't think putting fitness tests under the need group really makes sense. I don't go to the doctor to get advice on how to lift or improve aerobic fitness-if I want that guidance, I'd go to a personal trainer. Remember, the flight doc is the one who will try to solve all problems with 800mg of Motrin, if you even get to see a doctor and not a NP or PA. I can see BMI assessment moving to the med group though.

The real question is what is it fitness test really measuring? My job invoices going from one chair (office) to another chair that moves a little faster (the jet) and sitting their for extended periods of time. Doing squats and deadlifts have about about as much functional relevance to my job as the current test.

If I were King for a day? Pushups, situps, run. 33%/33%/34%. BMI can be left to the PHA. Simple test, no need for special equipment, can be practiced pretty much anywhere. Maybe have a few options for the aerobic portion like the Navy has (run/bike/swim). Battlefield airmen keep their functional tests as AFSC specific events.

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The suggestion to put fitness under med group is comprehensive. The FAC, trainers and gym all go. You take your test like normal but your score is confidential and reported as part of your medical record during your PHA. Then a physician, accounting for ALL of your health inputs, family history, past issues, etc, makes a determination whether to refer you to more training or not. In other words your flight doc can no shit refer you to the fat camp just like he can refer you to a cardiologist. 

Separate your job from anything to do with the PT test. This is the biggest myth. PT test is solely about healthcare cost reduction. That is the only thing that dictates service members be tested. Squats, deadlift and overhead press based off bodyweight are smart because they test your overall muscular and skeletal health which has been shown to be far more important than your cardiovasicilar capacity at long term health. Simply put, you should test a pushing movement, a pulling movement, and a complete range of motion of the leg chain. The current test only test one of those things and in a suboptimal manner. 

 

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Then a physician, accounting for ALL of your health inputs, family history, past issues, etc, makes a determination whether to refer you to more training or not. In other words your flight doc can no shit refer you to the fat camp just like he can refer you to a cardiologist. 


I can't even get the doctor (if I even get to see a doctor) to take into account family history much less my own medical history. Plus, MDs tend to lean towards medicines/drugs to solve medical issues. DOs have a history of also including things like diet and osteopathic manipulations/stretching in their care, which until recently MDs thought was silly. The lines are blurring between MDs and DOs, but still most issues tend to be resolved with medicines. Hell, it was a battle to get a referral for physical therapy when I needed it.

Ask your doctor what they get in terms of time per patient. Not a lot of time, and the clinics all seem to be short staffed.

Plus, they already ask in your PHA show much you workout, both strength training and cardio, and tell you if you're meeting the recommended amounts of workouts per week. They can point you to a dietician, or back to the HAWC.

Or you could get a weird flight doc who is convinced all your ills are due to diet, and that you absolutely need to follow the Paleo diet only to fix your issues.

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Look at the issues/concerns the army is working through for their new fitness test that involves strength/lifting events.

 

Edit to add:. I'm not opposed to the push/pull strength training regimen, it's what I do on my own time, and enjoy it. But I know the AF will find a way to screw it up, just like when we had civilian fitness assessors that managed to screw up pushups and situps with bad form.

 

 

 

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You are all getting way, way off track. The purpose of the AF test, per it’s creator, is to measure Vo2 Max, which also according to him is the best indicator of health and future healthcare costs. That should answer most questions. Continue.

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