Gunships arriving at Cannon

[Techsan]

A little clarification from a New Mexican.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am the guy who just chose to go to the FCO program because #1 I love the gunships and love the idea of actually feeling like I contribute to this war we are in, and #2 I love New Mexico. (Clovis...Eh...Whatever, it's a 2 hour flight in my Cessna to Albuquerque and 3 hours to great skiing in Taos.

Here is a quick lesson in New Mexico demographics: Any where north of Albuquerque and I-40 = mostly tree hugging hippies. Anywhere south of Albuquerque = Mostly hard working, flag waiving ranch types. Albuquerque itself: 50/50.

What those guys were seeing in Tucumcari was concerned people wanting to make sure that the plane was safe. It's a new mission to the locals out here, and it's going to take them a while to get used to it. The folks in Florida are used to the sound of 130's driving in circles overhead unleashing God's wrath on the Eglin range... And it won't take to long for the people here to figure out what it is, either. Don't worry about it, with time, folks will come around and figure out what is going on, and all will be well.

I am going to refrain from saying any more about the mission, or how New Mexico and the high altitude is effecting the planes because I don't know jack SQUAT about it yet. Hopefully this trip to HRT at the end of July will teach me a little more. However, I do know the people of New Mexico, and I'll stand behind them...It's like anywhere else...Some are a-holes, and they tend to be the ones to make the noise, but the majority are the kind of folks you want in your corner and the kind of folks who make America the great, diverse country it is today.

I've lived in Clovis for almost 7 yrs, and can totally agree with the above post. It will take time for ranchers & other folk to become familiar with something other than F-111s and F-16s. I find those 2 Clovis News Journal articles pretty hilarious...they really do have nothing better to do than talk about the weather and wonder why this military airplane is circling over thier little town.

[arg]

A little clarification from a New Mexican.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am the guy who just chose to go to the FCO program because #1 I love the gunships and love the idea of actually feeling like I contribute to this war we are in, and #2 I love New Mexico. (Clovis...Eh...Whatever, it's a 2 hour flight in my Cessna to Albuquerque and 3 hours to great skiing in Taos.

Here is a quick lesson in New Mexico demographics: Any where north of Albuquerque and I-40 = mostly tree hugging hippies. Anywhere south of Albuquerque = Mostly hard working, flag waiving ranch types. Albuquerque itself: 50/50.

What those guys were seeing in Tucumcari was concerned people wanting to make sure that the plane was safe. It's a new mission to the locals out here, and it's going to take them a while to get used to it. The folks in Florida are used to the sound of 130's driving in circles overhead unleashing God's wrath on the Eglin range... And it won't take to long for the people here to figure out what it is, either. Don't worry about it, with time, folks will come around and figure out what is going on, and all will be well.

I am going to refrain from saying any more about the mission, or how New Mexico and the high altitude is effecting the planes because I don't know jack SQUAT about it yet. Hopefully this trip to HRT at the end of July will teach me a little more. However, I do know the people of New Mexico, and I'll stand behind them...It's like anywhere else...Some are a-holes, and they tend to be the ones to make the noise, but the majority are the kind of folks you want in your corner and the kind of folks who make America the great, diverse country it is today.

On a side note, anyone still have a house at Herbie who needs me and my dog to house sit it for a couple months while I'm in academics at KHRT? I'll pay $$$$ not to have to stay in a hotel room! Send me a PM.

Disclaimer #2: Sitting at 7000 feet MSL east of Albuquerque on vacation from Oklahoma and I forgot how quickly the margaritas work at this altitude. I'm sure you guys will let me know if I was out of line here...

Edit: Geography.

First of all, good on you for volunteering for the gunship job. You WILL contribute to the war. Maybe more than you want.

My experience with demographics in NM checks with yours.

You mention getting in your Cessna to go places. Is that so you can go have some fun?

Not that I think fun can’t be had at Cannon/Clovis. My family likes outdoor type stuff, camping, wheeling, fishing, etc. We don’t need a mall, I’d rather have a good feed/hardware store.

When you get to the 16th and learn how they were selected to go to Cannon you might understand why some of the bitching is going on. Not sticking up for the bitchers because they signed up and have to go where they’re ordered but the selection process was skewed.

You will learn all about the performance when you get here for school.

And make no mistake; this school is for you to learn how to kill people.

[Mark1]

When you get to the 16th and learn how they were selected to go to Cannon you might understand why some of the bitching is going on. Not sticking up for the bitchers because they signed up and have to go where they’re ordered but the selection process was skewed.

You will learn all about the performance when you get here for school.

And make no mistake; this school is for you to learn how to kill people.

There are REAL problems with the city of Clovis and Cannon AFB that deserve "bitching" about. What happens when a junior enlisted guy PCSs in to Cannon and there aren't any dorm vacancies? They probably can't afford the $190,000 homes that are on the market and there is a NON-EXISTENT rental market. I'll tell you what happens. They live out of the squadron's alert facility or they pay $1400/month out of pocket to live in a hotel room. It's ALREADY happening, and the biggest surge of people has yet to come.

These issues should have been solved 2 years ago when it was decided that the 16th would be moving to Cannon, but they weren't. The squadron move date should have been tailored to take place when the base was ready to accept the influx of people, not some arbitrary target day set years ago, but it wasn't. The base/area is not ready for what is here/coming and those are real, legitimate, complaints.

But ultimately those seemingly significant problems are secondary issues. The moaning and complaining about the quality of life in Clovis is partly just growing pains. You'd get the same if you opened Altus II or Minot II and moved a bunch of guys from Hickam to staff the base. Clovis is not a fun place to live for certain demographics of people, but NOBODY is saying that they won't do their job because the Clovis area doesn't offer their favorite restaurant. Even if it may sound that way at times.

The other portion of the complaints are misplaced frustration with the move. Unfortunately the real concerns about flying gunships out of Cannon were ignored and so now you get the seemingly self-centered complaints about quality of life take their place. Ultimately however, the source of the discontent with the move still lies with the ridiculousness of flying gunship training sorties out of Cannon no matter how it is verbally conveyed. The move is castrating a squadron that is arguably the most important platform in the entire Air Force to the guys on the ground in OEF (EKIA in direct support ground units would support that).

Onlookers will say, "you need to adapt and find creative ways to operate out of Cannon, quit focusing on the negatives of the move". If those onlookers could see what the squadron is doing to make this work, they would shut their mouths. But the important question is why. Why were all these hurdles put in front of gunship operations? Leadership gave up on trying to give a coherent answer to that question a long time ago, because they realized their efforts to fabricate answers were digging holes for themselves.

AFSOC wants a new western base? Fine. Put all the NSA, UAV, V-22, and future platforms there that you want. If there was a legitimate mission related, non-political reason behind moving gunships, you wouldn't be getting this resistance. It's as simple as informing the people doing the mission as to why they've been moved. The fact that they haven't been notified tells me that there isn't a reason to be given. At least none that anybody wants to hear.

The squadron's focus is on hacking the mission because there are real people on the ground that count on it. Leadership's focus should be IDENTICAL...on creating an environment that best facilitates hacking the mission. This move was a departure from that, and that is why you get the resistance, not because Clovis doesn't have a McGuire's.

You can say. "it's over, it's done, deal with it and move on with the business at hand", and the squadron has, but that's no reason to excuse the failure of leadership, so you continue to hear about it until it gets old.

[Guest Vat_69]

There are REAL problems with the city of Clovis and Cannon AFB that deserve "bitching" about. What happens when a junior enlisted guy PCSs in to Cannon and there aren't any dorm vacancies? They probably can't afford the $190,000 homes that are on the market and there is a NON-EXISTENT rental market. I'll tell you what happens. They live out of the squadron's alert facility or they pay $1400/month out of pocket to live in a hotel room. It's ALREADY happening, and the biggest surge of people has yet to come.

These issues should have been solved 2 years ago when it was decided that the 16th would be moving to Cannon, but they weren't. The squadron move date should have been tailored to take place when the base was ready to accept the influx of people, not some arbitrary target day set years ago, but it wasn't. The base/area is not ready for what is here/coming and those are real, legitimate, complaints.

But ultimately those seemingly significant problems are secondary issues. The moaning and complaining about the quality of life in Clovis is partly just growing pains. You'd get the same if you opened Altus II or Minot II and moved a bunch of guys from Hickam to staff the base. Clovis is not a fun place to live for certain demographics of people, but NOBODY is saying that they won't do their job because the Clovis area doesn't offer their favorite restaurant. Even if it may sound that way at times.

The other portion of the complaints are misplaced frustration with the move. Unfortunately the real concerns about flying gunships out of Cannon were ignored and so now you get the seemingly self-centered complaints about quality of life take their place. Ultimately however, the source of the discontent with the move still lies with the ridiculousness of flying gunship training sorties out of Cannon no matter how it is verbally conveyed. The move is castrating a squadron that is arguably the most important platform in the entire Air Force to the guys on the ground in OEF (EKIA in direct support ground units would support that).

Onlookers will say, "you need to adapt and find creative ways to operate out of Cannon, quit focusing on the negatives of the move". If those onlookers could see what the squadron is doing to make this work, they would shut their mouths. But the important question is why. Why were all these hurdles put in front of gunship operations? Leadership gave up on trying to give a coherent answer to that question a long time ago, because they realized their efforts to fabricate answers were digging holes for themselves.

AFSOC wants a new western base? Fine. Put all the NSA, UAV, V-22, and future platforms there that you want. If there was a legitimate mission related, non-political reason behind moving gunships, you wouldn't be getting this resistance. It's as simple as informing the people doing the mission as to why they've been moved. The fact that they haven't been notified tells me that there isn't a reason to be given. At least none that anybody wants to hear.

The squadron's focus is on hacking the mission because there are real people on the ground that count on it. Leadership's focus should be IDENTICAL...on creating an environment that best facilitates hacking the mission. This move was a departure from that, and that is why you get the resistance, not because Clovis doesn't have a McGuire's.

You can say. "it's over, it's done, deal with it and move on with the business at hand", and the squadron has, but that's no reason to excuse the failure of leadership, so you continue to hear about it until it gets old.

The biggest problem i have with all the bitching is that the 16th acts like they are the only ones being inconvienienced by this move, how about the rest of us? How about how we were selected to go to Cannon? We ain't writing letters to the Sec Def over it and we have the same PCS issues and similiar training as the 16th. Bad way to start with the rest of us who have been sucking it up so far. You don't know castration yet. Wait until you actually get here and creatively 'figure it out', then we'll talk and hopefully by then it won't just be you bitching about the 16th's move.

[drewpey]

The biggest problem i have with all the bitching is that the 16th acts like they are the only ones being inconvienienced by this move(forced to wear reflective belts), how about the rest of us? How about how we were selected to go to Cannon (forced to wear reflective belts)? We ain't writing letters to the Sec Def over it and we have the same PCS issues and similiar training (reflective belt complaints) as the 16th. Bad way to start with the rest of us who have been sucking it up so far. You don't know...blah blah blah.

sorry to oversimplify it but...

with that logic (everyone else is doing it, drink the koolaid!) you might make O-6 someday...

aircrew bitch if you haven't noticed, and I (and pretty much anyone on this board) sympathize with anyone going to cannon. let people vent their concerns and complaints for god's sake without creating more drama...sorry you didn't get the attention they are getting...

[Mark1]

The biggest problem i have with all the bitching is that the 16th acts like they are the only ones being inconvienienced by this move, how about the rest of us? How about how we were selected to go to Cannon?

I guess I didn't get my intent across. It sounds like the 16th members are just bitching and moaning about the quality of life issues but what I'm saying is that the complaints about Clovis are largely misplaced frustration over an illogical move...because it has been shown that complaining about LEGITIMATE mission related issues is pointless and falls on deaf ears. In that, the 16th IS unique and that's why you get a "unique" amount of complaints. The 73rd is probably affected by performance issues to some (but lesser) degree, I can't speak to that very intelligently, but I doubt highly that the NSAs are significantly affected by the base location. There are too many issues other than density altitude that limit gunship training effectiveness to bother listing. Some will be worked out by implementing creative solutions, some are unavoidable.

We ain't writing letters to the Sec Def over it and we have the same PCS issues and similar training as the 16th. Bad way to start with the rest of us who have been sucking it up so far.

I don't really have a huge problem with the intent of the letter although it could have been done in a better manner. Regardless you can't attribute that letter to the 16th as a whole. Despite the sign off, it came from a few individuals.

You don't know castration yet. Wait until you actually get here and creatively 'figure it out', then we'll talk...

I'm already in Clovis. I've seen the plan to "figure it out" in the future. Believe me, it isn't pretty.

If you could take a snapshot of crew position experience, qualification, and seniority 3 years ago versus what it will look like when the move is over, you wouldn't claim that we haven't experienced castration. Let alone the guys that separated, we've got guys sitting at Hurlburt that WANT to come to Clovis and can't because their dependents are EFMP and the Clovis area can't support them.

Don't get me wrong, the Squadron will make it work, young and inexperienced or otherwise, but it should have never been put in this position.

and hopefully by then it won't just be you bitching about the 16th's move.

For the record, I don't believe you've seen me complaining about quality of life issues associated with the Clovis area here.

[Boxhead]

There are REAL problems with the city of Clovis and Cannon AFB that deserve "bitching" about. What happens when a junior enlisted guy PCSs in to Cannon and there aren't any dorm vacancies? They probably can't afford the $190,000 homes that are on the market and there is a NON-EXISTENT rental market. I'll tell you what happens. They live out of the squadron's alert facility or they pay $1400/month out of pocket to live in a hotel room. It's ALREADY happening, and the biggest surge of people has yet to come.

Your Jr Enlisted are being failed by everyone they know for not helping them. Our sq has/had the same types of issues...and they are ALL now living off base in rentals...you can go drive around to any of the dozen places for sale on Fairway...get 4 airmen in a 4 br...the sellers will most likely rent instead of leaving it on the market...that is the same all over town. There are a couple of apt places still with vacancies, and Portales is a 5 min driving difference to base from my house (far east in Clovis) and they have a butt-load of rentals.

They just gotta look!

[Mark1]

Your Jr Enlisted are being failed by everyone they know for not helping them. Our sq has/had the same types of issues...and they are ALL now living off base in rentals...you can go drive around to any of the dozen places for sale on Fairway...get 4 airmen in a 4 br...the sellers will most likely rent instead of leaving it on the market...that is the same all over town. There are a couple of apt places still with vacancies, and Portales is a 5 min driving difference to base from my house (far east in Clovis) and they have a butt-load of rentals.

They just gotta look!

Yes, I know, there are solutions and they've been found in the few cases that have come up so far. But that completely misses the point.

The real estate professionals in Portales would dispute your "butt-load of rentals" assessment, but again, not the point.

[arg]

In the great big book of bad decisions, sending gunships to Cannon will be early in chapter 1.

Somewhere close to the Japanese decision to bomb Pearl Harbor and Napoleon’s decision to invade Russia just before winter

[Guest Vat_69]

sorry to oversimplify it but...

with that logic (everyone else is doing it, drink the koolaid!) you might make O-6 someday...

aircrew bitch if you haven't noticed, and I (and pretty much anyone on this board) sympathize with anyone going to cannon. let people vent their concerns and complaints for god's sake without creating more drama...sorry you didn't get the attention they are getting...

#1 Don't care about the attention

#2 Creating drama by pointing out the pain is being shared? Interesting theory...

#3 If my point is we are all feeling the pain how does that imply koolaid is being drunk?

weak at best.

[war007afa]

Your Jr Enlisted are being failed by everyone they know for not helping them. Our sq has/had the same types of issues...and they are ALL now living off base in rentals...you can go drive around to any of the dozen places for sale on Fairway...get 4 airmen in a 4 br...the sellers will most likely rent instead of leaving it on the market...that is the same all over town. There are a couple of apt places still with vacancies, and Portales is a 5 min driving difference to base from my house (far east in Clovis) and they have a butt-load of rentals.

They just gotta look!

4:4 airmen/bedroom works well for the single guys, but what about the married ones who can't get base housing because it is full/condemned/not privatized yet? Or the Lt's who can't afford houses? The word PROBABLY should NEVER make its way into an explaination about housing issues for inbound personnel. There needs to be a fvcking P-L-A-N! Lack of anything short of that = FAIL! This has been an issue that has been brought up in every single "town-hall meeting" up until this point. Yet we continue to see the same issue come up every single month when the next crop of refugees show up to Cannon. It has to stop. All we are doing is empowering the local community because they have us by the balls and setting ourselves up for another real-estate bubble-burst like we saw in Florida.

[dream big]

A buddy of mine who was going to go to the MC-130W but got his assignment changed to a papa model since apparently the whiskey is going to become an AC-130W. Is the whiskey really going to become strictly an AC-130 now?

[Chicken]

A buddy of mine who was going to go to the MC-130W but got his assignment changed to a papa model since apparently the whiskey is going to become an AC-130W. Is the whiskey really going to become strictly an AC-130 now?

The MC-130W may or may not get its designation changed to an AC-130W...lots of touchy feelyness at Congress WRT to that... either way it has gun(s) and is a gunship. Why would he get his assignment changed strictly based on that criteria?

[backseatdriver]

Why would he get his assignment changed strictly based on that criteria?

Because why kill the enemy when you can deliver Combat Snapple and blacked out Bowflexes? Duh.

[matmacwc]

this is a real gem! Someone lives on the beach! Come to FOB Cannon and then talk tough guy.

And yes you do have to experience FOB Cannon to speak on it sh!tbird.

Ohhhhh jeeez......

[Chicken]

Because why kill the enemy when you can deliver Combat Snapple and blacked out Bowflexes? Duh.

I like snapple.

[JoeMamaSucka]

NICE! When my wife and I fight we usually take a breather and then start the same argument again as well. Looks like this thread took a 2.5 year breather, lets get it fired up again!

In all seriousness, any Wombat guys willing to be honest and comment on how their new mish is going? Any Clovis guys with info on whether or not the living conditions in Clovis/Portales have gotten better? Not extremely interested right now, but I am an AFSOC guy--and I hear that all roads lead to the glorious "western AFSOC base." How is the addition of the MC-130J affecting ops? Becoming the identical to the panhandle range airspace conlifction issue yet?

In other news, I recently saw news that more inquiries into skeptical NM government officials involved with the AFSOC move to Clovis have been raised recently--I can't find the link now for the life of me--I'm sure they hired a hacker to delete it and paid the "fifty-nifty" to kill the poor guy(reporter)....I hope they can't trace this post.....locking my doors and grabbing my gun now.

Edit: When I called the reporter a "guy" I couldn't remember specifically if it was a male or female reporter--might as well be as PC as possible in case I ever meet the "female" reporter and she's a hot chick with nice boobies.

Edited January 26, 2012 by JoeMamaSucka

[Guest CombatWombat]

NICE! When my wife and I fight we usually take a breather and then start the same argument again as well. Looks like this thread took a 2.5 year breather, lets get it fired up again!

In all seriousness, any Wombat guys willing to be honest and comment on how their new mish is going? Any Clovis guys with info on whether or not the living conditions in Clovis/Portales have gotten better? Not extremely interested right now, but I am an AFSOC guy--and I hear that all roads lead to the glorious "western AFSOC base." How is the addition of the MC-130J affecting ops? Becoming the identical to the panhandle range airspace conlifction issue yet?

In other news, I recently saw news that more inquiries into skeptical NM government officials involved with the AFSOC move to Clovis have been raised recently--I can't find the link now for the life of me--I'm sure they hired a hacker to delete it and paid the "fifty-nifty" to kill the poor guy(reporter)....I hope they can't trace this post.....locking my doors and grabbing my gun now.

Edit: When I called the reporter a "guy" I couldn't remember specifically if it was a male or female reporter--might as well be as PC as possible in case I ever meet the "female" reporter and she's a hot chick with nice boobies.

That'd be the "shifty fifty" brother and unfortunely no offcial comment on the wombats...bad business you see. Commenting that is

Edited January 26, 2012 by CombatWombat

[Dead Last]

this is a real gem! Someone lives on the beach! Come to FOB Cannon and then talk tough guy.

Seriously?

PM me and don't talk too much shit until then...

cheers

[Splash95]

In the great big book of bad decisions, sending gunships to Cannon will be early in chapter 1.

Somewhere close to the Japanese decision to bomb Pearl Harbor and Napoleon's decision to invade Russia just before winter

So I'm still fairly new around here and will grant that I don't know sh1t, but from the modest experience I've gained both firsthand and talking to guys who have been around since Before Cannon, the above statement is spot on. The obstacles put in the way of accomplishing even a ho-hum local training sortie border on the absurd. Yes, both instructors/PP and students are commendably continuing to try to squeeze blood from a turnip, but it certainly ain't pretty. Throw in the QOL issues which have been common knowledge for years (and are not getting better), and you get a lot of unhappy campers. I would think that anyone who stays here a day longer than he has to is truly impressive in his dedication to the mission-- to them. Again, this is a n00b perspective, but there are many other n00bs coming through the pipeline and seeing the same things.

[guineapigfury]

Noob perpsective can be valid. You are the frog dropped into the boiling water, while others have been simmering up slowly and may not have an accurate hack on the true temperature. Sometimes you get so marinated in the stupid that you just stop seeing it.

[Skitzo]

Wow... all this positive press... I'm really excited at the prospect of bringing U-28s out there...

[Rocker]

Clovis is less than ideal by most peoples' standards, but it's not horrible and you'll get used to it if you PCS here.

If you're used to having easy access to all the big retail stores and chain restaurants, as well as a nice city with lots of things to do and nice, well-cared-for parks, roads, and buildings and a good school system, you most likely will not find those things in or near Clovis, NM. If you're moving here and expect certain amenities and conveniences that you've grown accustomed to from living in a bigger city, you probably need to change your expectations. You might go through the stages of disbelief, anger, despair, regret, resignation, acceptance, and hope, and depending on your degree of cynicism you might find those stages recycling at different times with certain things, but you'll generally get through all of them as you realize things like Cannon itself isn't bad and it's getting better, you're not here forever, there are some cool things to be found around here, and the stories you hear about this place are usually worse than things actually are. On top of all that, you're here to do a job and you're not going to make anything better by bitching. There are plenty of positives to living here and in my opinion, the mission outweighs most of the negatives.

[Splash95]

What are the cool things and positives you have found living here? (not rhetorical, honest question)

[BQZip01]

There are plenty of positives to living here and in my opinion, the mission outweighs most of the negatives.

Yeah...the mission makes it better for the families...