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spit21fire

Flight Evaluation Board (FEB)

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I am facing a flight evaluation board for washing out of RTU, on of course what I feel are terms of improper syllabus implementation. If anyone has any experience or knows of anyone with any experience in dealing with a FEB please post here or contact me. Any help would be greatfully appreciated.

Edited by spit21fire

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Guest rotorhead

Been a witness on an FEB, and a board president. You would be ill-advised to present an air of "you guys suck" or the common "it's not fair" puling. You must politely highlight impropriety in execution of written guidance.

Was the syllabus executed in proper sequence?

Was the syllabus executed with proper flight durations of each ride?

Did you have too few IPs? (could teach only one way, did not know various techniques for success, etc.)

Did you have too many IPs? (too many techniques, inconsistency)

Did IPs downgrade differences in technique instead of substandard execution of procedure?

Did you get "great job" on flight written comments (no constructive, useful critique) and then get slammed?

Were any of your IPs brand new (inexperienced)?

Think seriously about your skills. Should you be flying a different aircraft or mission? Would I want my best friend flying as part of your crew or on your wing? Would I want my wife flying in the aircraft you were piloting? What is the likelihood that you will kill yourself or someone else?

Know the FEB reg (402)...your defense attorney likely will not be very familiar.

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From what I can tell from your other posts, you washed out of a fighter RTU. From my experience, unless you have clean cut syllabus deviations in your gradebook THAT WERE A FACTOR TO YOUR PERFORMANCE you are going to have an extremely difficult time getting back in the program. I've been on an FEB board and I've personally written an AETC fighter syllabus, so I know that they are written with lawyers in mind. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I just don't want you to get your hopes up.

An AETC fighter syllabus has very little latitude in terms of "syllabus implementation" that you could argue. They are pretty black and white, exactly for this reason. I'd say it's very unlikely that they didn't follow the syllabus flow, since GTIMS would have caught it beforehand (assuming F-15C, F-22, or F-16). That's (unfortunately for you) the only leg you'd really have to stand on that might work. Your opinion as to how you think it SHOULD have been implemented won't count unless they clearly violated the letter of the law. And that would have had to directly had a negative impact your performance. For example, if they screwed up something with your radar academics, but you washed out for defensive BFM, it would be a pretty tough sell that the two were legitimately related. You never got defensive BFM academics, but washed out in defensive BFM...different story. Too many/too few IPs? Won't win that one. Techniques vs procedure? not going to win that one either. Did you execute IAW 3-1/the brief? that's all that matters, along with the course training standards...which by the way mostly point back to 3-1 and defer to the brief. Breaks in training? Might have a case, but only if they didn't give you ADD rides when they were REQUIRED to (as opposed to "OG/CC may approve...") and you had some trouble in that phase.

Remember, the board is going to consist of IPs from your base, genarally dudes from another squadron that you did not fly with. they'll understand the syllabus from an IP perspective. You won't be able to sneak much by them.

On Bud Day...he has zealously represented some dudes on FEBs in the past. Having said that, the standard story is that he tried to burn down the barn to get his boys reinstated. As a result, he has pissed a lot of people off because they know he's going to try and paint all the IPs as idiots/miserable failures/dishonest liars/etc. Reference previous paragraph. The board consists of IPs. How would that go over with them?

Start with the area defense council. If he's retarded AND you really believe in your heart that you have a factual case (not just an emotional one), then hire someone. But I've seen many dudes waste serious coin on FEB attorneys...they'll take your money regardless of whether you have a case. Realistically, almost zero FEBs result in reinstatement.

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Guest TwoDogs

FEBs at RTU bases happen more often there than say a regular unit. Talk with the SJA at your RTU he probably has the process down pat, and he will assign you a JAG. From what I've heard FEB's are love fests, where they love the guy, they just don't want him flying fighters. So talk it over with legal council and see what your options are, if you make it easier for everyone it might help you in your next transition. If you fight it and the end result is the same, it may not be so good in terms of good will. So honestly look at your case and be your worse critic, and see if there is any truth to your current situation having to do directly with your skill set. Best of luck and sorry to hear about the FEB.

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Guest Hueypilot812

See you at Little Rock...

(all kidding aside, we see a few IFF and fighter RTU washouts come through the schoolhouse...)

Hope all works out for the best. I've seen an FEB actually reinstate the student, mostly because the write-ups weren't consistent (ie, saying the student was doing fine and then suddenly getting slammed, etc). But if the gradebook is tight and the syllabus was pretty much followed, it will be a tough fight to stay in. If it looks as though you won't be reinstated, look at your non-fighter options.

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spit21fire-

I mis-read your post. I've been on the otherside of the FEB, but the situations were completely different.

Good luck.

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If anyone ever has any questions about an FEB, I now consider myself an expert. I was reinstated into formal training today from an FEB.

  • Upvote 2

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If anyone ever has any questions about an FEB, I now consider myself an expert. I was reinstated into formal training today from an FEB.

Wow, you don't see that every day. Congrats and good luck.

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Just curious... what was the argument/sticking point that made the FEB keep you around? Was it the improper syllabus implementation as you mentioned earlier?

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Wow, you don't see that every day. Congrats and good luck.

Thanks for the good words!

Just curious... what was the argument/sticking point that made the FEB keep you around? Was it the improper syllabus implementation as you mentioned earlier?

You are exactly correct, improper syllabus implementation. Gotta read those regulations no matter how much it sucks.

Edited by spit21fire

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Guest Form 8

Congrats! However I'm sure you'll be eyed even closer by all the IP's now.

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Congrats! However I'm sure you'll be eyed even closer by all the IP's now.

For real, next gradesheet... 2 on Admin for not sneezing IAW sqd standards.

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(Thread revival)

Brethren,

Trying to help a bro dig for some info on the FEB process. Boarded for not meeting training standards at the schoolhouse... Final R ecommendation was retain & retrain to different platform. Package has been up at MAJCOM HQ for the last 5 months. Rumor mill now is that the AF is just going to kick everyone with a pending FEB decision out.

Questions here: Anyone know anything about if there is truth to this rumor?

Anything to do other than just sit and wait?

Don't know what I don't know about FEBs and how exactly the paperwork routes up the chain to the MAJCOM/CC. I'd appreciate any insight anyone can give. Who and what to ask... If there is need or it's worth contacting some office at the MAJCOM level. Right now all they are getting from squadron leadership is "we don't know but we'll let you know when we hear something."

My apologies... Intentionally leaving out exact platform & MAJCOM to preserve anonymity. Please PM me if that info will help focus any advice or direction you can give.

Thanks

---

PK

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(Thread revival)

Brethren,

Trying to help a bro dig for some info on the FEB process. Boarded for not meeting training standards at the schoolhouse... Final R ecommendation was retain & retrain to different platform. Package has been up at MAJCOM HQ for the last 5 months. Rumor mill now is that the AF is just going to kick everyone with a pending FEB decision out.

First off, it is not ususual for a FEB final determination by the 4-star to take 4-6 months. Remind your bro that FEB findings are only recommendations, and the Convening Authority for the FEB and the MAJCOM 4-star are free to concur or nonconcur with that recommendation and determine just about any of the possible outcomes for the respondent. In other words, just because the FEB recommeneded your bro be retrained to a different airframe, that doesn't obligate leadership to do that.

Second, FEBs have nothing to do with retention in the service. For an officer to be kicked out, he has to go to a Board Of Inquiry (a.k.a. a "discharge board"), which is an entirely separate process from an FEB. Even if an officer were to lose his wings at an FEB, the 4-star would have to initiate an entirely separate process to start and execute a BOI. BOIs are a whole additional legal process that takes place in a courtroom with another panel of senior officers, etc.

  • Upvote 1

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I just spent four months of my life serving as a recorder on a FEB and know way more than I care to admit.

After the board adjourns, much time is spent waiting for the court reporter to produce the transcript. Then both the senior board member and recorder have to audit the transcript... blah blah blah

Then a multitude of legal reviews commence, beginning at the Wing level up through the chain before it is dropped on the desk of the final authority. My MAJCOM/CC has delegated final authority down to his DO. (Not sure if this is standard)

So yes, sit and wait. It does take time.

Feel free to PM.

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I just spent four months of my life serving as a recorder on a FEB and know way more than I care to admit.

After the board adjourns, much time is spent waiting for the court reporter to produce the transcript. Then both the senior board member and recorder have to audit the transcript... blah blah blah

Then a multitude of legal reviews commence, beginning at the Wing level up through the chain before it is dropped on the desk of the final authority. My MAJCOM/CC has delegated final authority down to his DO. (Not sure if this is standard)

So yes, sit and wait. It does take time.

Feel free to PM.

This. I've sat as a recorder for a non formal training FEB (i.e. guy was Q3'd after finishing the FTU) and helped another officer as the recorder for a B-course washout before the FEB waiver was approved. In both cases, the time from initiating proceedings to a final determination was around 5-6 months.

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Good words... much appreciated!

Looks like it's pretty straight-forward... hang tight for now and we'll see what happens.

Chapter29, thanks for the offer. I'll PM if anything strange comes up that you may be able to give some insight on.

---

PK...

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i ran one for a formal training course washout, waiver was quick and easy, believe he went from the Viper schoolhouse to AWACS.

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The only waiver I've ever seen is to waive the board itself. When one washes out of our FTU because they just can't hack single-seat fighters, leadership often offers them a waiver to the FEB. The terms of the waiver are generally acceptance of an ACC crew aircraft, basically anything but single seat fighters. Not sure how the B-15 fits into the mix. The WG/CC is the waiver authority.

Sometimes the waiver is not offered.  A dude washed out of my FTU class and was not offered a waiver because he washed out for reasons that the leadership deemed "safety of flight" problems.  They went after his wings.  His own words - it was the shittiest experience of his life.  He won and got a B-1.  That's my only data point for a waiver not being offered.  If problems are due to SA and safety of flight, the waiver may not be offered.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

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On 3/10/2009 at 5:01 AM, Guest Hueypilot812 said:

See you at Little Rock...

 

(all kidding aside, we see a few IFF and fighter RTU washouts come through the schoolhouse...)

 

Hope all works out for the best. I've seen an FEB actually reinstate the student, mostly because the write-ups weren't consistent (ie, saying the student was doing fine and then suddenly getting slammed, etc). But if the gradebook is tight and the syllabus was pretty much followed, it will be a tough fight to stay in. If it looks as though you won't be reinstated, look at your non-fighter options.

We get them at the B-1 schoolhouse as well.

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2 Nav's didn't make it through UPT - got a FEB waiver (leadership supported) and went back to being Navs. The one I regularly talk to is doing really well.

PM me if you want direct contact.

Edited by xaarman

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