24hr lodging "rule"

[slc]

for all you heavy guys, anyone know where this is written or is it just "unofficial" I can't seem to find the "reg" anywhere. (This is the "as long as crew is only staying one night, they don't have to obtain Non-A's" policy. Thanks

[HossHarris]

for all you heavy guys, anyone know where this is written or is it just "unofficial" I can't seem to find the "reg" anywhere. (This is the "as long as crew is only staying one night, they don't have to obtain Non-A's" policy. Thanks

Read the JFTR ... It's painful at first, but worth it when some shoe tries to pull a fast one.

U1045 is a good section to have printed out for the lodging office, since they seem to screw it up the most.

The answer to your question is black-and-white in U1045.B.4 ... quarters are not-available.

Edited December 18, 2008 by HossHarris

[slc]

Read the JFTR ... It's painful at first, but worth it when some shoe tries to pull a fast one.

U1045 is a good section to have printed out for the lodging office, since they seem to screw it up the most.

The answer to your question is black-and-white in U1045.B.4 ... quarters are not-available.

Exactly what i was looking for i.e. something in print for the REMFS thanks a bunch

[slacker]

24 hour rule works- i've used it a few times.

[BQZip01]

24 hour rule works- i've used it a few times.

Would someone be so kind as to spell out the "24-hour rule"?

[Gas Man]

http://perdiem.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/jftr(ch1-ch10).pdf

[BQZip01]

http://perdiem.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/jftr(ch1-ch10).pdf

Thanks. For those who, like me, have never heard of this:

Gov’t quarters are not available:

1. When a TDY/delay point is at other than a U.S. Installation;

2. When an AO determines that Gov’t quarters use would adversely affect mission performance, except for:

a. A member attending a service school at an installation; and

b. An officer in grades O-7 through O-10 who personally determines quarters availability;

3. During all periods of en route travel;

4. For any TDY/delay of less than 24 hours at one location

[JarheadBoom]

This is good stuff - most of my stops lately are less than 24hrs...

Thaks for the link.

[Finance_Guy]

Read the JFTR ... It's painful at first, but worth it when some shoe tries to pull a fast one.

U1045 is a good section to have printed out for the lodging office, since they seem to screw it up the most.

The answer to your question is black-and-white in U1045.B.4 ... quarters are not-available.

Remember the JFTR is a Joint pub and can be made more restrictive at the service level in some circumstances. What I mean is command authorities can direct use of Govt Quarters when in the best interest of the Gov't---mainly to save taxpayer $$ and to make their budget last longer.

An example is where a 1-Star issued policy that all enroute aircrews will utilize available on base quarters--reserved and catered to the aircrews using the Prime Knight program. They basically block rooms at billeting and pay for them whether they are full or not. So when crews come in and pull the 24-hour rule, those rooms are left vacant and Uncle Sam still pays for it, so in essence the AF has paid twice for your night of lodging.

Remember the JFTR paragraph below too. What this tells me--If you were traveling on your own dime and arrive a base and rooms were available, would you stay in billeting or go downtown and pay a butt load more? IMO for those who use the 24 hour rule to skirt using available billeting, they are not exercising prudence in travel and are not very good stewards of our tax payer dollars. The intentions appear to be purely for personal reasons. Why would one want to go through all the hassle to go downtown when you are already right there on the base (talking aircrew here)? Most times you have Trans driving you around and Prime Knight catering to your lodging needs. As a comparison...how many of stay downtown when flying into the 'Died for < 24 hours? None - mainly due to the hassle of getting on and off base and I'd venture to say its AFCENT policy. Just my two cents.

U2010 OBLIGATION TO EXERCISE PRUDENCE IN TRAVEL

1. A member must exercise the same care and regard for incurring expenses to be paid by the Government as would a prudent person traveling at personal expense.

So, I'd be first checking to make sure there is not a pre-existing policy in place at some of these locations.

[Stiffler]

its AFCENT policy

Are people actually saying AFCENT now? HOW :rainbow:

[slacker]

Most times you have Trans driving you around and Prime Knight catering to your lodging needs.

Thanks, that is the funniest shit I've seen in a while.

My favorite is when billeting says no room in the inn, you're downtown. You initially think score! Until trans says no U-drives and trans will NOT go downtown, also cabs are not allowed on base. You might ask, "how the hell do we get to the rooms?" To which billeting and trans say, "not our problem." That's always fun....time to wake up the services commander.

I wish finance folks had to go on the road with aircrew at least once a quarter with a minimum of 6 stops....then maybe they'd understand, but probably not.

Edited December 19, 2008 by slacker

[Bergman]

IMO for those who use the 24 hour rule to skirt using available billeting, they are not exercising prudence in travel and are not very good stewards of our tax payer dollars.

That sort of behavior is way worse than this sort of thing.. Or kind of like the CAOC having us take off with 185,000 pounds of fuel (~27,000 gallons) just to have extra gas airborne "in case we need it" and then shrugging their shoulders when we dump 80,000 pounds (~12,000 gallons) of it in order to land. Or even better...coming back to land with 20,000 pounds (~3,000 gallons) too much gas, and rather than granting a waiver to land over the supposed max gross weight, the Og/CC directs you to hold for 3 hours with the gear and flaps hanging to burn it instead, rather than saving it. Not that two wrongs make a right, but why is it that finance people typically act like it's coming out of their damn pocket?? In all seriousness, I wish every person who works in a finance office could "ride along" with a mobility crew for a week or two. Stay where they stay. Work when they work. Sleep when they sleep. Eat when/what they eat (cold meals for two weeks straight, anyone?) I think the tune would change.

Why would one want to go through all the hassle to go downtown when you are already right there on the base (talking aircrew here)? Most times you have Trans driving you around and Prime Knight catering to your lodging needs.

Could it be that billeting is terrible compared to off-base lodging? Also, trans is not nearly as good as you seem to think. How many times have you ever waited out on a sub-zero (or 120+ degree) flightline for 30+ minutes for trans to show up? Sure, it looks great when 3 aircrew hop out of the crew bus in front of lodging, but you need to realize that it rarely works as advertised and certainly isn't "a good deal". Not to mention that the crew you just saw has probably been at work for 16+ hours. Again.

U2010 OBLIGATION TO EXERCISE PRUDENCE IN TRAVEL

1. A member must exercise the same care and regard for incurring expenses to be paid by the Government as would a prudent person traveling at personal expense

Exactly! When I am paying my own way, I make sure I am getting the most of my money...and that would rarely be billeting. I have also NEVER conducted personal travel without a rental car authorized, FWIW. A good example: this summer, I was in sunny Altus, OK, for 6 weeks. The gov't preferred method of travel was by air, from my town to Atlanta, and then to Lawton, which is 40 miles east of Altus. No rental authorized. When I asked our travel office about this, they said, "Well you're SUPPOSED TO TAKE THE BUS and then WALK AROUND THE BASE"...for 6 weeks! That is insane. They would rather have paid $1300 in airfare to fly me into Lawton, rather than $400 to fly into Oklahoma City and another $500 for the rental car. These are the same people who are telling ME to be a good steward of the taxpayers money? UFB.

[JarheadBoom]

...all enroute aircrews will utilize available on base quarters--reserved and catered to the aircrews using the Prime Knight program.

I've been to a LOT of places lately in the system that are not doing Prime Knight anymore. Reason? "We don't have the manpower for it."

Slacker is dead-on with his remarks about billeting, trans, and cabs. His exact scenario has happened to me twice this year...

[slc]

Good debate folks. I've wanted to bring this topic up for several years now (just forgot) and find out if I am experiencing the same issues as other crews. I am also in agreement as far as exercising prudence to in order to save the taxpayer's dime. This is especially true when I see two separate lodging bills at a location, one for $33 (billeting) and one for $149 (downtown Marriott). HOWEVER, and this is where I step back into "reality". I have been on way too many trips and way too many bases where the lack of crew support is growing more prevalent every year (especially true on weekends). (On a side note, ever notice the plethora of "useless" airmen over at the deid ie passing out beer cards, gym towels, etc.) Maybe Big Blue needs to "reallocate" some of these resources stateside. I would have no problem staying on base at billeting (some of the new billeting is excellent), however, when you can't obtain a UDI or crew trans is understaffed (and can't take you to get some grub)i.e. one driver for the weekend shift (do these people think the AF doesn't fly on weekends!!! hell that's when we ,the guard/reserve, make our money) then you are stuck eating out of the shoppette (or Class VI if that's your pleasure). Reality check, the primary mission (which appears to have been lost), is flying planes, moving cargo, and putting bombs on target. Support for this mission should be primary (hint: now it is not) The above rant is why I exercise the 24hr. rule. At least I know my crew will be able to eat a good breakfast (usually free hint: embassy suites, hampton, holiday inn), have a good dinner, and relax with a beer at a local pub after a 16 hr. day. I am just one pea in the pod using (or abusing!?) this frivolous rule. However when you look at Nancy Pelosi flying everywhere in her taxpayer funded jet, or the thousands of airman "abusing" the combat zone tax exclusion policy at the deid (again for passing out beer cards, gym towels), well you get the point. And if you don't, feel free to hop on a trip with me hauling cargo sometime. I'll be more than happy to open your eyes. End rant

[Finance_Guy]

Are people actually saying AFCENT now? HOW :rainbow:

Sorry, it's really USAFCENT. My Bad

http://www.centaf.af.mil/

[brickhistory]

on a web address of "centaf.mil"

Priceless!

[Stiffler]

Bergman,

I fully agree with your assessment. In my tanker days, that was the absolute most frustrating part of traveling...finance or other support groups telling you what it is like on the road...and when you tell them otherwise then they assume you are definitely trying to game the system. No, I honestly am not gaming the system...but instead of focusing your ire on people, focus it on the flawed process. Of course most people have never deployed with us, so they have zero idea. "but the regs say...."

[Herk Driver]

...all enroute aircrews will utilize available on base quarters--reserved and catered to the aircrews using the Prime Knight program.

I have been to exactly one base in 16 years where I got Prime Knight service as a -130 crew. The 24 hr rule, as a rule, when you are min-turning to fly again, saves at a minimum 1-2 hours of my time. If I wanted to hurry up and wait, then I go to billeting. If I want to save some time, get to a place to eat (before it closes), and get to bed at a decent hour, then I skip billeting and push to the hotel. That's the beauty of the 24-hr rule.

Again, Bergman hit the nail on the head (sts).

[Champ Kind]

Read the JFTR ... It's painful at first, but worth it when some shoe tries to pull a fast one.

U1045 is a good section to have printed out for the lodging office, since they seem to screw it up the most.

The answer to your question is black-and-white in U1045.B.4 ... quarters are not-available.

This is definitely news to me.

Fellow crewdogs, this should be boldface:

PRINT - CLICK

HARD COPY - SAVE IN MAC PURSE

, "support" agencies.

[HossHarris]

This is definitely news to me.

Fellow crewdogs, this should be boldface:

PRINT - CLICK

HARD COPY - SAVE IN MAC PURSE

, "support" agencies.

There is a LOT of usefull info in the JFTR for TDY and PCS.

It is worth reading for familiarity.

Just a few examples:

You only have to check for Non-A once, one Non-A letter is good for the entire TDY, no matter what billeting says.

24 hour rule.

Your boat is HHG, you get paid for the weight of it through a DITY.

Your boat is HHG, you get paid for non-temp storage.

[pirate]

I've been flying for 6 years and I have never even heard of PRIME KNIGHT. What the hell is this?

The experiances above are the same ones I have encountered. We flew into Hill oncw wih an extra crew & 1/2 to pick up an airplane from the depot and depart to do some follow on stuff. There were abou 15 of us. We waited on the ramp for 45mins for trans. Got to billeting and spent.....i shit you not....2 hours getting checked in. They knew we were coming. Why couldn't they have our damn keys ready so we just swipe our cards and go. Every other hotel in the world does it that way.

This is why I use the 24 hour rule every chance I get.

Here is a money saving idea. Tear down the AF Inns. Leave only temp housing for PCSing people. No maint, no staffing, no upkeep.... The private sector does it better and it would help support the local economy during these tough times. Think of it has a hotel bail out.

But, there is a larger question that I just heard about yesterday. One of the worse things I have ever heard....Is general rule 1 really in effect for all of SOUTHCOM?

[Guest AirGuardian]

Bergman,

Nice "on the road" slap-dance. Several years ago I actually had a couple of Finance personnel on board headed to Hawaii on a TDY. Pitch Black flight thru the night as normal....

One of them actually stated: "So you do actually fly during the night and into the next day!"

I couldn't even respond... just shook my head.

A few more sorties later they hopped on again on our way back. I watched them struggle after our 2AM arrival somewhere else barebase. No Trans, No Rooms, slim Taxi's, rather amusing having a few Pax and TDY folk sitting in what was called base ops. It was good for them to see the Pax bedding down for the night. Those retirees are relentlessly tuff when it comes to Space A. Of course I gave them the option of hanging with us, then their eyes widened on how a Marriot might be better rest wise - the MARRIOT AND OTHER NICE HOTELS IS WHERE I SPEND MY PERSONAL EXPENSE ANYWAY, imagine that>>>!

Someone can pitch to me all day about money that has been allocated 2 years prior (POM, I worked D.C. already) for any Fiscal Year. Additional money is slapped on each year with ammendment costs for over budget areas of course. When they can swap different colors of money let me know. I won't even get into the Fuel Velocity crap, that's another ball game...

Bottom line: I'll always get the crew the best accomodations I can. Well Rested/Happy Crew, is an efficient / Safer Crew!!! And that's my job every time.

We can make do with Prime Night sometimes (a few places are fairly nice/I have them marked), but I'm not into slapping band-aids on other peoples mistakes and have my crew pay the price if I have any say or way around it.

So many years have gone by for several of us here and its not changing- NO Real Complaints from me, I just work around it and press on regardless...

I'll be at the OutRigger on my next trip to HI, see you there if you can work it too. SAME HOTELS I've stayed at with personal money.... Does that make it OKAY now. I have an issue regarding that earlier statement...

U2010 OBLIGATION TO EXERCISE PRUDENCE IN TRAVEL

1. A member must exercise the same care and regard for incurring expenses to be paid by the Government as would a prudent person traveling at personal expense.

Granted it says prudent, but ALL hotels in HI aren't cheap and several do the Mil discount thing. Why pay rental car/gas costs by staying at billeting when I can do everything downtown on my vacation. Regarding the flightsuit work. We normally get sent downtown anyway since billeting is booked with TDY folks doing all the SUPER REQUIRED COURSES and EXCERCISES in HAWAII. I don't mind going downtown, but if you want to bean count there are plenty other CE, Logistics, Commanders M, Conferences of all kinds out there sending thousands of personnel around and I would enjoy it too... What happened to Teleconferencing/Video Show, etc. Sometimes it ain't just good enuff to see and hear the other folk, shaking hands does still work.

You can interpolate this Reg any way you want and so will I. Sorry, not really ranting, but venting!

Who knows - after the 15 years plus I've seen - maybe "change" is coming/Jan 09 perhaps, but as I get older I've noticed that many times change makes things worse... So all I'm saying is enjoy what you got now, I do!

AG

[Guest Boom]

I've been flying for 6 years and I have never even heard of PRIME KNIGHT. What the hell is this?

If a base has PRIME KNIGHT or not it'll be in the IFR Supt with AMCC's freq's/DSN numbers and procedures on how to use PRIME KNIGHT enroute wise.

Mildenhall just shut down their AMCC/PRIME KNIGHT which was absolutely retarded due to all the mobility aircraft that constantly flows through there.

[RogAir]

for all you heavy guys, anyone know where this is written or is it just "unofficial" I can't seem to find the "reg" anywhere. (This is the "as long as crew is only staying one night, they don't have to obtain Non-A's" policy. Thanks

WARNING!??

I seem to remember if you invoke the 24hr rule, then break (standard ops for C-5 crews) and go past 24 hours, you are SOL and Finance will not reimburse you for the off base stay. Am I correct?

[slc]

WARNING!??

I seem to remember if you invoke the 24hr rule, then break (standard ops for C-5 crews) and go past 24 hours, you are SOL and Finance will not reimburse you for the off base stay. Am I correct?

You are correct. This is the gamble you take, however, and a little brow-beating to billeting should work to get that non-a backdated.